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Underground > Creation >

The Barbelith Temple Presents: Vol 1

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13:32 / 26.04.07

Ok so I'm finishing the repository site today.

If you want to particpate on any of the teams Proof/Layout/Edit I need your contact info as I'm taking the abstracts and articles there. I will email each person a login/password and site URL for the repos.

For the ability to vote on Artwork I *need* your email address

The artwork will be hosted on a basic webpage but it will be login protected.
We're not quite there yet for the artwork obviously but please get me your info if you want to be in on the vote.

14:13 / 26.04.07

I just received some art work directly from an offboard source that is stunning.
I think we're looking good!

15:11 / 26.04.07

BTW these are the peeps I have contact info for:

grant
betty woo
electric monk
feverfew
Invisible_al
MattShepherd
id
Quants
GL
Sekhmet
Haloquin

If you're not on the list you need to send me your off board email for the project.

11:43 / 27.04.07

I almost missed this:

I also think Justrix should write an article, but that is personal opinion.

Olulabelle, thank you for the encouragement! I am attempting to write something, hopefully, of barbe-quality. It is a shame you feel there should be no art in this journal, because you certainly are a talented artist, 'Lula.

13:52 / 27.04.07

Good stuff be rolling in!

Remember to send your abstracts and art to:

barbelith.cag@gmail.com

As it all rolls in CAG will post an updated list of abstracts so you can see what topics are being covered and why you should jump around impatiently for the thing to be published.

18:12 / 27.04.07

I've sent my abstract! Early! Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together try to love one another right now!

02:50 / 28.04.07

I'm not on XKs list of potential article contributers, though I was on Quantum's earlier...

I'm still potentially interested, but I get the impression I'm having trouble keeping up!

Would you still be interested in me contributing something?

--Ember--

04:24 / 28.04.07

I believe you have something like a month left to get an abstract written. So I wouldn't worry much, EmberLeo. And I doubt anyone's going to be stuck to the rulebook on this thing, so unless it's a matter outside of anyone's hands (technical, technological, or out-to-the-printers-alread) I'd imagine we can all kinda take it easy and do as we can.

Not that it's my place to say/post any of that, but I have, so I can just be contradicted later if the need arises.

07:58 / 28.04.07

I think it is; you're down as a CAG and can presumably therefore make decisions about things like that..

I'm confused. I thought we had a week for abstracts. Is it a month now?

Also, regarding offboard submissions, what's the deal with that? Do people have to have some connection with Barbelith?

08:21 / 28.04.07

I was thinking of suggesting a few people knock abstracts out, as well, if it's okeh. They're completely removed from Barbelith, is the thing, which I thought might be a good thing. But I haven't because I didn't know the protocol. What is - if we have one - the protocol for a submissions call (to specific folks)?

And we have, I believe, until the end of May for the abstracts. I could have just looked that up the first time, I suppose, and given a concrete(r) date.

10:53 / 28.04.07

The WIKI knows all!

The offboard contributions are subjected to the same scrutiny as the on board contributions. Same rules of content.

The idea with off board participation is that many fine folks have been shut out in the past by the problematic old join-the-board-process and we want to make a product that is viable to the larger Temple oriented community. I suspect eventually they will join the board or currently are friends with peeps on the board. We're not limiting the thing for space currently.

Plus you know, surprises!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:49 / 28.04.07

Is it okay if I go on a couple of lists and plug this?

00:13 / 29.04.07

Sounds like a good idea. It would mean more people picking it up, surely?

01:06 / 29.04.07

Depends on the lists...
I mean, I trust your judgement and the more the merrier. Of course you should tout, I've been a shameless pimp.

06:36 / 29.04.07

So wait, do I have a month or a week?

'cause if I only have this week, I'm probably going to have to wait it out until the next time.

(I suppose I could just toss out what I've got when I have time, and if it's past the deadline, then so be it...)

--Ember--

08:27 / 29.04.07

Woo! Submitification!
Do CAG give feedback about our proposals? Because if my article idea is hecka boring I'd like to know now

12:21 / 29.04.07

I believe you have a month Ember. If it's a week I won't be submitting this time around either!

14:27 / 29.04.07

Come on people, the wiki knows all. To avoid any possible difficulty let's spell it out again;

== Timelines and Deadlines ==

May 1st 2007 -> May 31st 2007

Submit Article Abstract

So in fact it's not even the START of the submissions window yet. THEN YOU HAVE A MONTH to submit JUST THE ABSTRACT.

June 1st 2007 -> August 31st 2007

Submit completed Article and Artwork for review please send article abstract and completed work to:
barbelith.cag@gmail.com

THEN YOU HAVE THREE (3) MONTHS TO WRITE THE FULL ARTICLE.

Everyone clearer now?

The ABSTRACT must be emailed by the END OF MAY. The ARTICLE must be sent to us by the END OF AUGUST.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

14:45 / 29.04.07

Should people wait for a yes/no on abstracts before they start working on articles? It's unclear whether decisions are going to be made by the CAG at the abstract level or at the article level.

15:14 / 29.04.07

Seconded.

16:36 / 29.04.07

Should people wait for a yes/no on abstracts before they start working on articles?

What we'll do is respond to abstracts with any advised changes. I don't think we're expecting to reject *any* at the moment, the idea of the abstracts is to let us know what people are preparing, get an idea of numbers and content, avoid overlap etc. not so much to yes/no articles.
If you're worried about it, send your abstract early and we'll get feedback to you as quickly as possible, which will hopefully be minor changes and encouragement. Then you can work on the piece over the summer (or sooner!) and we can finalise and publish it.
The abstract doesn't have to be incredibly detailed, just enough to give us an idea of what you're intending and so we can arrange the shape of the eventual book.
email barbelith.cag@gmail.com people! Tell us what you're going to do!

17:04 / 29.04.07

I have.
I'm a good boy I am.

20:00 / 29.04.07

So, my intuition and general all round cleverness is telling me that you would like us to read the Wiki, Quantum, and stop dicking about with foolish questions.

Regarding the CAG and rejecting abstracts. I should hope that unless an abstract was appallingly written, no-one's summision would be rejected. I can't think of anyone likely to submit an article abstract who would also be a candidate for rejection.

Obviously there are some people who occasionally post in the Temple who are unlikely to submit an interesting or considered article, but I would suggest that those people are also likely to submit anything in the first place.

Some of the questions about rejection feel like people are thinking of submission of articles as if it were an exam question. Given the standard of conversation here on Barbelith I should be very sad to see anyone's work rejected, and certainly would have an issue with that rejection in terms of work being 'sub-standard' intellectually, unless it were very obvious. For example The Fetch submitting anything on gematria would probably not work as an article, it being, in the main, utter giberish to the majority of readers. So if such a situation were to arise (one where someone generally articulate and sensible had his or her work rejected) I personally would like to read the unacceptable submission if that person were agreeable, and I would hope that other people involved in the project but not acting as CAG's would also.

10:44 / 30.04.07

Olulabelle is quite right. Even if an article wasn't suitable (if it was very similar to what someone had already submitted for example) I'd think most of our contributors could just pick something else and write about that instead.

Ten points to house swashbuckling!

misterdomino.org

21:32 / 30.04.07

I think I've gotten myself updated on the progress of this exciting publication, but bear with me if I've missed anything. I am most interested in the visual aspects of this book, since I have no doubt of the intellectual quality of the writing that goes on here, and also, because I fancy myself an artist.
It might be good to remember that we were initially inspired by a very powerful comic book, the fusion of art and prose, and to underestimate this medium would be a disservice. But of course, I understand the desire to keep illustrations relevant and of high quality; hopefully any doubt can be remedied by effective communications between writers and artists.
So, without becoming completely verbose, I would like to propose myself as an artist of some type of magic related comic section for the publication; one might be tempted to debate the effectiveness of comics as a nonfiction medium, or to quickly think of Grant Morrison and Alan Moore...but instead try thinking of R. Crumb’s collaboration with Harvey Pekar, only this time Harvey is invoking Captain America as some righteous god form to defeat a corrupt CEO or some other real life story of awesomeness you guys might have.
I don’t want to talk about myself too much, but I’ll link you to this proto-beta-digital-moving-comic-dealy (that requires Flash to view some animated panels ((click the little play button))) (click the left or right side to go backwards or forwards respectively, and the writing is quite lame, I know). Jeez, sorry that is so complicated just to show a sample of me comics:
the comic
So, perhaps I should start a new thread about this, but can this idea work with the publication? And who wants to throw some ideas around? I’ve seen a bunch of other really talented visualists around this board, as well as some really intelligent/freaky/interesting/awesome thinkers, so if we started really, REALLY collaborating, well...

22:11 / 30.04.07

Oh wow.

Okay. It's becoming clear that apart from the artists we knew we had there are many more coming out of woodwork. Barbelith is the proud collective of much talent. I think that this talent deserves an entirely separate project, and anyway, Mr Domino, how do we print that?

(It's beautiful, just so you know where I stand.)

I propose we create a second project, along the lines of XK's original volume 1. Perhaps we can call the second one The Art; or at least keep the same naming conditions, so the issues become a series.

I propose we start a new thread about The Art, and that we separate it from the magical writing content being published here. That is not because I am anally retentive and wish to separate art from writing, (and it be all neat, I promise) but because I think, in the case of the kind of talent we are lucky enough to have here, clearly one will detract from the other. It will become a fanzine, rather than two issues of a respected (hopefully) peer-reviewed journal.

Thoughts?

22:40 / 30.04.07

I think the art and the writing would distract from each other. If we don't have a clear, obvious focus (ie articles on Temple stuff) then I think the end result would end up a bit of a mess.

I'm all for an Art journal though. Twould be cool.

22:57 / 30.04.07

I have a very strong feeling about not seperating magical writing and magical art. A journal to express magical ideas, to inspire and to share in magical ways, would lose so much from not allowing visual inspiration and sharing.

I can understand the arguments for seperating the two, but I think that would lead us to losing something that could be very important.

Written pieces are good. Yes. But, pictures can give life to a journal in a different way. An image can convey something an essay cannot in some cases, especially with experiences that are near-on impossible to put into words. Or for people who express things visually, or for people in the audience who take things in visually.

To say that combining the two runs the risk of making it look like a fanzine seems, I feel, almost like an insult to the talents of the people on this board. To be entirely clear, I don't feel insulted and it obviously wasn't intended as one, but visuals are so important to me that to cut them into a seperate volume in case it comes out wrong is to not give it a chance. 'Lula, you said it yourself, the talent here is amazing... and for those that express thamselves magically through visuals, surely the best place for their work is in the journal on magic? If that is how they want to express their magic?

I believe that we, as a board, are talented and dedicated enough to make this journal work with artistic magical pieces.

Perhaps an Art journal for showcasing artistic pieces is well worth while, but to split the art from the magic? To deny visual expression of magic in a journal intended to express magical things is to deny a huge, important method of expression. I'm personally not happy with that.

23:34 / 30.04.07

Haloquin, I have to agree 100%.

Besides, I thought all of this had already been settled?

00:19 / 01.05.07

I don't know that it's a settling issue. Some people feel it brings the thing down, others feel it brings the commercial potential down, and then there's those who think it opens the thing up to more people, or, like me, don't worry much about readers who think having a picture inside a book makes it a childrens' book or something. If Catch-22 and Wuthering Heights and Scientific American can have line-art and ink washes abounding, why not our Temple journal? Except people have been pretty clear about their reasons 'why not' and I don't think they're the kind of reasons that can be invalidated.

So, whomever is ostensibly entirely in charge of this monstrous thing, will have to make the call. I'm looking at threadstarters and a few others, here...

The Ghost of Tom Winter

01:04 / 01.05.07

I think art, done well, can do nothing but improve anything it touches.

misterdomino.org

01:04 / 01.05.07

Yep, you might have misunderstood my proposal as one involving overall book design/aesthetics, and thats an important job that a professional should handle. I'm merely putting my comic-making techniques out there to you writers and other artists who might want to put together a comics magic related non-fiction for this publication with me, following all the same guidelines you guys've already established, just in graphic form. Not to publish the comic I already made and linked to, but to create an entirely new one which I draw and one of You barbeloids write. So send me a message with your ideas, quickly, and hopefully I can get a few pages out in a week.

I have to agree with Harloquin about the visual aspect of magic, but that much is up to you guys. I just wanna make some comics with you cats. We'll do black 'n white for ease of print, and i'll get much more samples of my work to anyone interested.

(Thank you for the compliments Olula, and an Arts Journal would be great...but what I'm REALLY interested in, which I think Barbelith might be keen to, is this mixed media collaboration thingy, a seamless blend of image and prose, almost in the tradition of the Chinese literati, where painting, poetry, and calligraphy all were equal in the composition. And there could be magic documentaries and narrative and all that good stuff too. Imagine a whole book of that! Dare I start a thread about this?)

09:22 / 01.05.07

I agree with Harloquin and Kegs and the rest of the pro-art on this. I don't really see any reason why the book shouldn't contain articles,art, comics etc. That would be more representative of the Temple and magical practice in general. The idea that it would bring it down to the level of a fanzine or a school magazine is something i really don't get Olulabelle (and does come across, as Harloquin noted, as slightly insulting although i'm sure that isn't your intention) As this thread has shown, there are many talented and often professional artists and designers here. I'm sure a professional result can be arrived at. An overall design aestetic can bring the look of the thing together even with numerours visual elements.

The Strange Attractor journal is a fantastic example of this. Line drawings, photography, pages from handwritten journals the whole thing ties together and looks great beacuse of fantastic design (far better than most books you'd find in shops).

09:41 / 01.05.07

Start a thread, for sure. I like the idea of having the introduction as a comic, with a narrator ficsuit explaining what Barbelith is, what the Temple is, smacking a bigot with the banhammer etc. leaping between panels and pastiching Animal Man.

BUT...

I don't think we should be including art unless it's specifically magical, and even then probably next time. I understand your concern, Haloquin, that we not seperate art and words artificially, and there will be art in the book in the form of illustrations and stuff (eg. I've asked Keggers for some for my piece, some articles absolutely need visual aids which will be lovely). I don't want the art to outweigh the pictures though, I think since the Temple is a text based medium we should make the book mostly writing. We could have a second volume of mostly Art, but for this first volume I'm very strongly in favour of minimising it for both cost and maximising space for wonderful words.
I'm not denigrating Art or our smashingly talented artists at all, or denying the place of Art in magic- if Austin Osman Spare sent us a piece then I'd probably turn it down until the next issue.
This volume should be primarily words.

10:15 / 01.05.07

I really wasn't advocating making it primarily art... I agree, this is a text based place and the majority of pieces will, and should, be written. I was advocating including magical artwork... illustrating pieces to explain what they mean is one thing and cool, but including artistic expressions of magical work is also important. Obviously due to printing constraints it'll have to be black and white work which will limit some people, I was just worried about magical work being excluded from the magical journal because it was visual rather than written. I had been under the impression that there was going to be art included, but when 'Lula wrote about seperating the two entirely I felt strongly about it (as you can probably tell) and also felt that a case needed to be presented for not seperating the two completely... which was the impression I got for what she was proposing.

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