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The Barbelith Temple Presents: Vol 1

 
  

Page: 12(3)45678... 17

 
 
Ticker
17:44 / 19.04.07
grant, where would the submissions be reviewed for content in this workflow?
 
 
betty woo
17:46 / 19.04.07
grant: what falls into the "editor edit" phase? I'm not sure if that's the content review patrol (CAG) or just a final review of the completed book, but I'd suggest that the CAG should happen before we start in on copy editing, like so:

submission
content review
(re-submit of articles with major changes requested by content review)
copy edit
layout
proofread
editor edit
(+ writer edit/writer approval, if you want to be that democratic).
 
 
Quantum
17:58 / 19.04.07
It's a bad idea for people to edit/proof their own work.

It certainly is. I like the process we're roughing out, and the website is way down the road awhile yet.

XK, I don't think there's a conflict in submitting and editing, as long as you don't sneak in eight thousand words repeating XK kicks ass or something. I want to submit something, and I'm happy to get crit and suggestions from others, it can surely only improve a piece to get feedback.
 
 
grant
18:11 / 19.04.07
Heh -- I was actually thinking of CAG as being *before* what I was calling "submission."

But yes, early-early.

Also, a reminder:

We gots a wiki on this site.
 
 
Ticker
18:36 / 19.04.07
OOOHH!!! WE GOTS A WIKI!!!
 
 
Ticker
18:43 / 19.04.07
...and

submission
content review
(re-submit of articles with major changes requested by content review)
copy edit
layout
proofread
editor edit
(+ writer edit/writer approval, if you want to be that democratic).


methinks betty woo is onto it?

so:

submit abstract
|
submit article
|
review by CAG with possible re-submit
|
copy edit (Proof Patrol Alpha)
|
layout (Layout Patrol)
|
proofread (Proof Patrol Beta)
|
Editor Patrol edit with writer approval
|
THE WORLD

thoughts from peoples?
 
 
Quantum
18:50 / 19.04.07
Looks good. Let's use the wiki as much as we can if that's practical, and I'll have to work out the FTP thing too maybe.

Do we have people who are unsure of what to write? I was thinking we could suggest things we'd like to see written about if so.
I'd like to see some relevant academic stuff too, personally, anthropology or whatever. If that's cool there's someone I must email...
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:52 / 19.04.07
Wow, this thread is growing fast.

As stated earlier, I'd be happy to help with layout/editing. Edit/proofing is among my professional duties (grant from a journo perspective, me from an ad-copy one, but it's more or less the same ball of wax).

The thread summary says "talk about logistics," so here are a few questions that can be batted around, probably at this CAG level:

1. Who's your audience?
2. What about this publication will attract them vs. other similar publications?
3. For that matter, vs. all other attention competitors (free material on the Internet, video games, walks in the park, etc.)?
4. Is there an existing model -- an exemplary publication -- whose form or content you want to draw inspiration from?

There are essentially two approaches to new publications: if you build it they will come (apologies to Kinsella) and this is who we want to reach and this is how we reach them. The former can be a lot more creatively satisfying, but is a lot riskier than the latter.

I know this is probably dead obvious, but I've been involved in a number of projects where we've amassed quantities of great material and had absolutely no luck getting it in front of people's eyeballs because we didn't have a cohesive who-it's-for-and-why from the get-go.

Part of the reason I'm writing this is that this begins as a positive reaction to a negative situation (and a million kudos to XK for drawing good water from a crap well), but what it is and who it's for will be a long-term determining factor more than what it's not and who it's by.

If the audience is (as said on page 2) "hypothetical interested laypeople", how does that affect structure? What are these people reading now? Should there be a "levelling up" effect where "heavier" articles are at the back and lighter ones at the front to ease them in? Should there be must-have article assignments that volunteers can tackle or trustworthies can be "assigned"? Should there be themed issues so you can go after specific audiences?

I hope I'm not sounding like a wet blanket or a condescending arse... as said above, I've tanked spectacularly in the past on projects that were sort of like this one (in terms of being creative publications with lots of enthusiasm and interest) and I desperately want to share what nuggets of wisdom I've eked from the ashes of disaster.
 
 
Ticker
19:01 / 19.04.07
I was thinking of it more like "if you wanted to tell people in the Temple about an area of your study/interest without being worried about time and thread hogging, what would it be?"

So in my mind the audience isn't automatically laypeople to the general topic of Temple-y goodness but perhaps not aware of an article's particular area of focus.

I would draw inspiration from organizations' journals and collections they create to show what their members are up to rather than pitching it to any external audience. It just so happens I think the thing will find a wider audience because it will be a badaas frackenwork of extreme sublime beauty. But hey, YMMV.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
19:12 / 19.04.07
Do you want this thread used for article ideas or just logistics?
 
 
Olulabelle
19:27 / 19.04.07
I second the nominations of XK, Quantum and Id for checking and reaffirm my appreciation of the word numinosity. For if nothing new ever was invented where would we be?

I would like to write something, and that thing will probably be something about practicing psychedelic magic.

Mixmage is going to write about Hand Runes and working with the runes.

I really, really don't think we should have illustrations for each article. Mediocre art can tend to bring the levels of a thing right down. If we want people to take what we are writing seriously, we don't want to look like a A Level Student magazine. We will look like that unless we pick a couple of absolutely cracking artists and stick to their work. Personally, I think actually just a lovely cover would be the best thing.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
20:41 / 19.04.07
Have you ever seen Zoetrope: All-Story? They have one artist do work throughout the entire magazine. The end result is phenomenal. Perhaps that can be an option if someone is up to it.
 
 
Quantum
00:32 / 20.04.07
I think actually just a lovely cover would be the best thing.

How can we persuade some local artists into volunteering? Bedhead's ace pics just got bumped, Macready does excellent stuff as does our beloved fool, there's plenty of talent. We just need to bully and bribe them.
Also, ooh handrunes!
 
 
Quantum
00:40 / 20.04.07
Oh and I would draw inspiration from organizations' journals and collections they create to show what their members are up to rather than pitching it to any external audience.

I agree. Like the Royal Society.
I guess it's leaning toward the if-we-build-it model to go that way but I think the customers of occult bookshops are our target market, and showcasing people's specialties will lead to more interesting (and better) pieces. I like the model of professionals reporting their findings, that's a tone I'd go for.
 
 
Saint Keggers
02:41 / 20.04.07
If we could get people to illustrate the articles or write text for the pictures, that would be nice.

Id be more than willing to put together some artwork if wanted.
 
 
ghadis
08:37 / 20.04.07
Gosh this is moving fast! Don't have much time this morning so briefly

I really, really don't think we should have illustrations for each article. Mediocre art can tend to bring the levels of a thing right down. If we want people to take what we are writing seriously, we don't want to look like a A Level Student magazine.

I don't see how if we can get a high standard of writing we can't get an equally high standard of design and artwork throughout. Saying that though I do quite like the idea of just one artist throughout but i feel they would need to illustrate for the text which may be a hefty bit of work. Unless the art is abstract which could work really well.

Are we just looking at artwork for illustrating articles though? Also, is the idea so far that the articles are to be mainly factual essays? What about poetry, experimental writing, photography, rituals, comics, could it come with a dvd of animation or short film or a cd of music? All things that come under the Temple or magick banner.
 
 
Quantum
10:39 / 20.04.07
Are we just looking at artwork for illustrating articles though?

Far from it. In fact last night I had a similar thought to Ghadis, that we could have a fiction section for poetry, art etc. I've got some I'd like to include (e.g.) and that doesn't tie text to pics. I only suggested it because the artwork opposite my 'flocking' piece in that mag was coincidentally a girl turning into a flock of birds, lovely.

What do people think of a Fiction section? I'll hold up my hand and say I'm in no way qualified to judge the quality of art, someone else will have to do that unless we only want pictures that I like.

So, In My Mind, the main section is non-fiction only, pieces about magic with some insert illustrations (e.g. I'd like a pic of a magic 8-ball for my tarot piece) and then there's a magical-creation section for showing off creative talent, the only restriction on which should be that it evokes some sort of magical imagery or thought. Otherwise we'd need two mags, the second one called Barbelith Creation.
 
 
Quantum
11:47 / 20.04.07
On the illustration, the one I mentioned was by Vicky Scott who I think is brilliant, this is one of hers;



which is what made me think it could be very nice. Keggers, I'd like you to illustrate a piece on bullshit detectors if you're willing, my article is going to be on judging how good the tarot reading you get is and how to spot a charlatan cold reader. What do you reckon?

Just to tally interested parties and volunteers, we've got;

Id
XK
MattShepherd
Ghadis
Justrix
Doc Checkmate
Electric Monk
Grant
Betty Woo
Olulabelle
Princess Swashbuckling
Ghost of Tom Winter
Haloquin
Emberleo
Feverfew
Saturn's Nod
Haus
Wombat
Keggers
Decrescent Daytripper
Talks to Strangers?

I'm trying to persuade Goodness Gracious Meme to write a piece on gender-for-dummies, a primer article to put early in the book to give readers a better idea of where we're coming from (plus a counselling-as-magic perspective).
I'm leaning more and more to magic without Oppression, as that's the sort of Fears I was meaning. Also an explicitly pro-oppressed creation would suit me fine, with some stuff angled directly at prejudice and intolerance in the occult and overcoming it.
 
 
Papess
11:56 / 20.04.07
You forgot Mixmage, Quantum.
 
 
Quantum
12:13 / 20.04.07
Whoops, bad listing. He was there making runic gestures in my mind.
 
 
Olulabelle
12:58 / 20.04.07
Perhaps we could have a special section for creative work, or a separate issue? It might be better to stick to factual articles about the practice of magic (Tarot, runes etc) in this first attempt. I think it might be very difficult to distinguish magical creativity with just creativity and I think the original idea for this journal was about magic.

It could get really confusing.

I think illustrations or images that reflect articles (Quantum's 8 Ball, Mixmage's handrunes) obviously can be included because they're necessary parts of the articles but I think if we stray too far into creative submissions we might not end up with a journal on magic but rather a collection of things people would just like to have published. With no link other than that it's via the Temple.
 
 
Olulabelle
12:59 / 20.04.07
Oh, but of course one of Kegger's Mages in training pictures could go in because they're quite clearly magic related.
 
 
Ticker
13:17 / 20.04.07
I think at least for Vol 1 we should keep the scope focused to non fiction presentations to the magical/spiritual community.

We've got training wheels on and we need to see if we get the thing built and out the door without making it so complicated that we trip ourselves up.

As for filling it with images, I know that would probably be cool for the non printed ones but if we are printing any it impacts the overall cost and color correct time.

I suggest for the first Vol we aim for just a cover image to keep everything priced reasonably. As we grow we can figure out the rest. Baby steps for babies seems perfectly acceptable to me.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:18 / 20.04.07
Can I stick my oar in on the title question? Feel free to ignore, as I am not a magician and probably won't submit any art...

I think 'Magick without Oppression' isn't quite the right title, not because the intention or sentiment is awry, but because it suggests a polemical standpoint which might not quite fit the content (and might also draw adverse comment from people who feel that it suggests that all other magical publications etc. practise oppression - well, maybe they do, I don't know...). I think something more general like 'Temple Magic' would be preferable (though perhaps not that, as it might have some specific meaning I don't know about).
 
 
Papess
13:31 / 20.04.07
I suggest for the first Vol we aim for just a cover image to keep everything priced reasonably. As we grow we can figure out the rest. Baby steps for babies seems perfectly acceptable to me.

May I suggest that any art (that could possibly be) included be strictly black and white for cost purposes?
 
 
ghadis
14:01 / 20.04.07
Black and white interior art to keep the costs down definatly. Colour covers shouldn't be a problem though. If we're going with non fiction articles i think some cool b&w line artwork on title pages possibly by one artist would be best.

As to titles. Also don't like the 'Magick without..' idea. Mainly because i can think of at least two other books that have riffed on that idea (including Magick without Peers for a solitary witchcraft book which i do think is a great title!)
 
 
Papess
14:05 / 20.04.07
i think some cool b&w line artwork on title pages possibly by one artist would be best.

Yes, that would be a great idea, if possible.

As to titles. Also don't like the 'Magick without..' idea.

I agree with you, ghadis. Mostly, because I can hardly resist the urge to call it "Magic without Idiots".
 
 
Ticker
14:29 / 20.04.07
Ok so 'Lula and Quants have a good point about how do we jury the art?
Does CAG wrangle it? Do we collectively privately PM vote on it like the cover?

I can envision a process where all art is reviewed by the entire group and voted on privately. The highest approved piece becomes the cover.

Though like with article submission, people need to be prepared for rejection and that's a lot harder to explain with visual art.

My thought here is that CAG would receive the votes and be the ones to explain to people submitting why their pieces were not accepted even if the decision was group based.

How much more complicated does layout with interior images become for the Layout Patrol team?
 
 
electric monk
14:42 / 20.04.07
I really like Joel Biroco's use of linework in Kaos #14. Small accents for the text that don't overpower it. Something to consider anyway. I actually love the look and feel of the whole Kaos package, TBH.

I have some small skills with vector software, so note me down as volunteering for line art duties if I'm needed. I can prepare one or two samples, if that'd help.

How much more complicated does layout with interior images become for the Layout Patrol team?

Oh, not very much at all. Almost a non-issue, really.
 
 
Ticker
14:59 / 20.04.07
Ok if it isn't hard or expensive to have interior b&w work how do folks feel we should handle the art submissions?
 
 
Quantum
16:34 / 20.04.07
Oh, but of course one of Kegger's Mages in training pictures could go in

You see?! It's really hard to leave stuff out!

But I think you're right about the fiction section. Let's not. Interior B/W illustrations is what I was imagining in my head so I'm all for that, although I think we should aim for not too many, and really high quality.

B&W line drawing can be fantastic;

 
 
Saint Keggers
16:36 / 20.04.07
Oh, but of course one of Kegger's Mages in training pictures could go in because they're quite clearly magic related.

While I do like the idea of my mages once again being published, I think the whimsy and irreverance wouldn't be consistant with what I think we're trying to produce here.

As for the art,
The things we have to decide is whether the artworks are to be included as art or if its going to be illustrations to accompany pieces of writting. While I like the second option, I realize it will extend the amount of time it takes to make the Vol 1 but I believe it will be worth it in the long run as it will bring a bit more consistancy to the project.

I like the idea of the whole group judging the art but think maybe a discusion of the works should be held before a vote.
 
 
Ticker
16:43 / 20.04.07
As for the art,
The things we have to decide is whether the artworks are to be included as art or if its going to be illustrations to accompany pieces of writting. While I like the second option, I realize it will extend the amount of time it takes to make the Vol 1 but I believe it will be worth it in the long run as it will bring a bit more consistancy to the project.

I like the idea of the whole group judging the art but think maybe a discusion of the works should be held before a vote.


I'm thinking of free standing visual art. I think it is a bit unfair to harness visual artists to the whims of the non fiction contributers. The art should be inline with the premise of the collection magic/spirituality/religion and thoughts revolving around...

Then maybe the art discussion could spawn its own thread when it comes time to post it to discuss it? I can set up a private web site area for temp viewing of the images for just the contributers to the project very easily.
 
 
Saint Keggers
16:52 / 20.04.07
I love the idea of an viewing/discussion site for the art.
 
 
Olulabelle
18:50 / 20.04.07
See, I still think that we should only include art in this go round if it's relevant to the article. I just can't see how we include random 'magical' art in a sensible format. I know that there are people who who can produce some amazing stuff, but I'm in the 'Keep it for the next issue' camp. I agree with XK about babysteps and would also push that to the limit and suggest that if we keep this issue clean and crisp - just with articles (and relevant illustration) and a colour cover it will be a/easier to compile and agree on, b/not be running before walking c/be consise and d/be of a standard everyone can be proud of for the very first issue.

I also agree with Kit Kat - magic 'without' anything is odd. I still think XK's Numinosity word was lovely and suits us perfectly. It's also original and not a refelction or a take on anything that has been done before; a place which I think is very important for us. Otherwise we'll be 'just another...' and we're not just another, we're The Temple! We rock!
 
  

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