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Marvel's 'Civil War'.

 
  

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rabideyemovement
06:06 / 07.08.06
I'm really confused by Thor's appearance. We didn't see the transition between the time he picked up the hammer and his entrance as Codename: Lightning. Then it neglected to show what happened to him after the battle, as well as the other heroes' response to Thor's return...
Iron Man isn't concerned with the sudden return of a dead comrade? How did Thor come to work for SHIELD?
... begging for an explanation!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:00 / 07.08.06
I also got Secret War, which threw timelines everywhere right out (due to what happens to Fury,) and took around 19 months or so for it's five issues to be completed.

Oh, did that ever actually end? That's sort of satsfying to know. I assume that it ended with Nick Fury on the run, and yet still somehow secretly in charge of S.H.I.E.L.D? Or on the run, not secretly in charge of S.H.I.E.L.D, but still somehow with access to a vast range of resources which were somehow squirreled away during his tenure, in a kind of Embezzler of S.H.I.E.L.D way?
 
 
ThePirateKing
10:26 / 07.08.06

Either it's not the REAL Thor (and the fake'll get his arse kicked when the real Thunder God does show up) or he's faking it and is gonna side with Cap.

The odds are so stacked against Cap's little band as it is, if they also have to fight Thor as well it'll be a very short story.
 
 
The Falcon
11:18 / 07.08.06
I assume that it ended with Nick Fury on the run, and yet still somehow secretly in charge of S.H.I.E.L.D? Or on the run, not secretly in charge of S.H.I.E.L.D, but still somehow with access to a vast range of resources which were somehow squirreled away during his tenure, in a kind of Embezzler of S.H.I.E.L.D way?

Yeah, option 2, judging by the stash Cap &c. have in CW3. Fury's not actually been on-camera, to my knowledge, since, and eeevil woman Maria Hill is in charge of SHIELD.
 
 
tickspeak
16:04 / 07.08.06
For the record, I met Peter David at WizardWorld Chicago yesterday and asked him if the Spider-Man reveal threw him for a loop on Friendly Neighborhood. He replied that it has caused him to "back-burner" his "Flash works at the same school as Peter and has amnesia" subplot for 3 months. Not discard, not rewrite. Back-burner for 3 months.

DR. STRANGE AND SCARLET WITCH HAVE RESET SEX AND THEIR BABY IS EVERYONE FORGETTING SPIDER-MAN'S IDENTITY.
 
 
ThePirateKing
09:56 / 08.08.06
Can you explan the Flash subplot - for those not reading the title?
 
 
tickspeak
16:03 / 08.08.06
Essentially, Flash is teaching gym at the same high school where Peter teaches science. Flash recently got out of a coma and has amnesia--he refuses to believe that Puny Parker has married hot model MJ or that he and Peter have in fact become close friends since Flash got back from Viet Nam.

The conflict with the Civil War material is obvious--if Peter is revealed to the public, then Flash's raison d'etre (Spidey's biggest fan is Peter's most obnoxious bully) gets thrown for a loop. Now, a writer as skilled and experienced as PAD would be able to use something like this to brilliant effect, I have no doubt, were it to become canon--Flash suddenly starts worshipping Peter or simply refuses to believe what he sees on TV and makes it his mission to find the "truth," etc. etc. But the fact that, according to Mr. David, no substantial rethinking of the subplot was necessary, leads me to believe that, as with all things in comics, nothing significant is really going to come of the whole brou-ha-ha.
 
 
The Falcon
16:06 / 08.08.06
What, the Vietnam war? Is Flash Thompson as old as the Punisher?
 
 
aku aku
17:14 / 08.08.06
Why on earth is Peter teaching at a high school when he's meant to be working for Tony Stark?

And how can flash have been in Vietnam? He's what 28? Wouldn't that make him roughly the same age as Tony (I'm guessing the retcon still says he suited up during the Vietnam war right?), therefore making Peter roughly the same age as Stark, this doesn't make sense.

Christ, if my personal history was as convoluted as Tony's then I'ld be hammered 24/7 too.
 
 
gridley
17:17 / 08.08.06
Maybe in the Marvel Universe, the Vietnam War lasted 40 years.
 
 
aku aku
17:22 / 08.08.06
Well give it another couple of years and all the war origins will have to be reconned to the gulf war, at which point I'm going to feel really too old to be reading this stuff.

which I have done since I was 15 to be honest
 
 
doyoufeelloved
18:31 / 08.08.06
All Marvel Universe wars are on a sliding timeline -- Xavier & Juggernaut were originally said to have fought together in Korea, but it was eventually switched to Vietnam, and will probably eventually be the Gulf War. Tony Stark's already been informally retconned by Warren Ellis to have suffered his wounds in Afghanistan, presumably during the war against the Soviets (not in the most recent conflict). I think Quesada has acknowledged most of this stuff as fluid, with only The Punisher being "married" to Vietnam in a specific and unchangeable way (though frankly I don't see why that's necessary).
 
 
Henningjohnathan
18:47 / 08.08.06
At least in Marvel Comics, Captain America and Namor still fought together with the original Human Torch in WW2.

Nevertheless, it seems like for classic DC characters like Jay Garrick and the original Green Lantern (Sentinel?), they have a "bubble of time" that means their history only goes back forty years into the past. The first tier of JLA-level characters, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, Wally West (dead?) date back 15 to 20 years and the younger and new characters only go back 10 to 15 with a few really new characters 0 (new Blue Beetle) to 5 (Tim Drake) years.

As far as Civil War, the big problem is that once you open this can of worms, there really is NO JUSTIFIABLE REASON a modern society would allow superpowered people to operate in secret as self-appointed police and rescue vigilantes.
 
 
tickspeak
18:54 / 08.08.06
The Vietnam reference was half a joke. Flash did serve in 'nam under Jazzy John Romita while Harry was hopped up on yellows and blues and Pete's girlfriend ironed her hair. What are ya gonna do. But Flash and Pete have been friends since around this time.

And it makes sense for the Punisher to stay married to his Vietnam service since that was the only war that turned veterans into deranged killing machines once they returned home.
 
 
The Falcon
18:59 / 08.08.06
Did it really?
 
 
tickspeak
19:06 / 08.08.06
Yes, it really really did.


???????????


Wait, am I being sarcastic? Are you? Was I being sarcastic before? Message boards give me a headache.
 
 
The Falcon
19:35 / 08.08.06
Well, I was a bit, because I don't think the aftermath constituted a number of Punisher-a-likes wandering the streets of America; certainly these were horribly damaged men, and the drug connection was stronger than in the Gulf, but you know. I'd contend that turned veterans into deranged killing machines once they returned home is inaccurate; that in fact these were - to borrow your phrase - already (drug-)'deranged killing machines', who did not a great deal of killing upon their return. I do agree that Castle's origin is best left there, though, but it may get ridiculous ultimately.

%Fortunately%, the US is often on-hand to provide new conflicts for Marvel character origins.
 
 
aku aku
19:57 / 08.08.06
I still don't understand why Peter is working at a high school when he's living with/working for a billionaire?

cmom Tony don't be stinge, give us a million
 
 
doyoufeelloved
20:53 / 08.08.06
I'm gonna say he's working at a high school because somebody at Marvel finally realized that this is kind of a good story idea (keeps him in the nerd milieu, has a lovely feeling of "this is the course his life would've taken") and are reluctant to let go of it despite all the Starky nonsense yanking it off into left field.

And yeah, it does sound an awful lot like somebody's big fat finger is hovering over the Parker's Identity reset button, doesn't it -- the whole thing will just turn into a cautionary tale starring Jimmy Stewart. Maybe Thor will hit the ground with his hammer so hard that everyone will forget! (Or alternatively, fly around the world bonking everyone on the head to give them amnesia and make them forget the last week or however long elapse.)
 
 
Nakkurusu
20:55 / 08.08.06
I still don't understand why Peter is working at a high school when he's living with/working for a billionaire?

Because he likes to teach.
 
 
tickspeak
21:14 / 08.08.06
Well, according to JMS, Peter is a lowly high school teacher because Norman Osborn has been the secret mastermind behind Project Peter Parker: Mediocrity, which is what has kept everyone's favorite wall-crawling certifiable genius in at least 3 separate fields of science from, y'know, being a scientist. Or something like that. Also he banged Gwen in Paris and came like gangbusters on-panel, and in case you'd forgotten about that now you're reminded. So there. If I can't sleep, no one will.
 
 
Mario
21:55 / 08.08.06
The JSA have an out of sorts, since most of them were in Limbo for part of their careers, which gives them a buffer. And a bunch of them have been rejuvenated by one method or another.

The only real problems are the Infinity Inc. crew, and most of them are dead or were dead for a while.
 
 
The Falcon
22:03 / 08.08.06
tickspeak, are you the author of this 121,000+ words diatribe, entitled Redeeming Gwendy?
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:28 / 09.08.06
Well give it another couple of years and all the war origins will have to be reconned to the gulf war, at which point I'm going to feel really too old to be reading this stuff.

and

I think Quesada has acknowledged most of this stuff as fluid, with only The Punisher being "married" to Vietnam in a specific and unchangeable way (though frankly I don't see why that's necessary).

I think the Welcome Back Frank graphic novel by Garth Ennis sums it up the best when Frank's talking about a Gulf War veteren hitman sent after him.

Different kind of war.

The Punisher's origin is intrinsically linked to the Vietnam war for a number of reasons. The foremost being that it was a horrible dehumanising conflict for the US troops that required them to be pretty much toe to toe with the enemy for long periods of time, where as (for the ground forces) the Gulf War was a whole lot of hanging around and then mopping up after the air force.

I suppose the special forces side of things was more intense but it still doesn't have the same level of "war is heck" as Vietnam does (from a storytelling perspective).

Also, the duration of the wars makes a big difference. The Punisher was, according to the wiki, active in Vietnam in special forces for four years. The Gulf War lasted about one (if that).

It may be that, at some point in the future, Frank Castle's origin might be retconned to being involved in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. But I would have thought they're more likely to do something involving the Infinity Serum rather than dig up that can of worms too early.

Does anyone know what Punisher is actually doing in CW? I heard rumours that he was to be recruited as a hero-hunter.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:48 / 09.08.06
Yeah, apparently he's gone a' Hero-Huntin'. It's probably like the recent Cable and Deadpool without jokes and fourth-wall breaking, but with a lot of narration that goes like 'Now the HEROES are CRIMINALS, like the CRIMINALS who MURDERED my FAMILY'. Yeah, I'll be at the comic store at 9am Wednesday morning to pick that one up...
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:08 / 09.08.06
Ergh. I was half-way hoping he'd tell them to stuff it.

Mind you, someone can haul Ennis's entertaining "What If? The Punisher Killed the Marvel Universe?" out of the archives for some pointers.
 
 
John Octave
14:11 / 09.08.06
Re: the "Redeeming Gwendy" site, that's actually written by a frequent contributor to Byrne's board. Which explains why it says things like "It's Spider-Man, not Spiderman, have some respect for the character or take a hike," but in the same breath wonder why comics are perceived as so unwelcoming to outsiders and kids ("Probably because they aren't exactly like they were when comics hit their creative peak in 1982, which coincidentally is the same year that I turned eight!!1")

tickspeak's thing about Project: Mediocrity was kind of hinted at in Millar's Spider-Man (I respect the character!) and was as good an explanation as any for Osborn's always-vague motives. The Goblin is an agent of status quo, so whenever Peter starts to change or move up in the world a little bit, the Goblin is there as the Human Reset Button. Works for me.
 
 
aku aku
18:09 / 09.08.06
Its a shame that the editors at marvel seem reluctant to move past the whole 'Peter at school' thing. Looking at the early spiderman stories he should be a) a photojournalist or b) a scientist.

It seems that they want to keep him forever at 16 and in highschool and can't seem to do interesting stories, where he's married and has a career etc.

No doubt this is meant to keep it more relavent to 'da kidz' look kids spidermans in school just like you!
because we all know how well kids empathise with teachers

I'm not saying I want Peter joining the PTA and doing office work, but come on, the guy invented his web shooters when he was 15, he has a passion for science, he should be in a lab, or something other than being a part time science teacher and Tony Starks....actually what does he do for Tony?
 
 
tickspeak
15:22 / 10.08.06
Come on, people, it's just hanging there. What are you, too good for lowbrow sex comedy?

What does Peter do for Tony? Peter is Tony's valet. Or his ward. Or, uh, amanuensis. Yeah, that's it. Peter takes Tony's dictation.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
18:00 / 10.08.06
Spinning out from the pages of CIVIL WAR! PETER PARKER, THE SENSATIONAL HOUSE-BOY! By Howard Chaykin!
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:57 / 11.08.06
Meanwhile, Cap is sobbing in the corner because Tony left him for *Peter Parker* of all people.
 
 
Tom Coates
08:46 / 11.08.06
There's something about Peter Parker which is forever sort of difficult second albumish. He's the guy whose songs are all about how difficult his life is being a teenager and dealing with fighting crime and everything, except then he's a superhero, worldwide celebrity and married to a hot model. Pretty difficult to produce a second album full of the angst that made him famous.

Basically in real life, if that isn't the most ridiculous thing I've ever said ever, Peter Parker would now be unrecognisable to his friends from school. He'd be a worldwide celebrity on press junkets and trying to maintain his third major tv series, or he'd have gone totally underground and be either living in Ecuador or gone totally feral soldier of fortune. Or he'd have shacked up on super-hero science facilities with Reed Richards trying to invent the next sun-collider while all the major technology companies and governments of the world tried to have him killed. The narrative arc that ends up with him teaching in a school is pretty much farcical except in as much as it allows the familiar Spider-Man narratives to continue in some cod, hacked-together, zombie sort of way.

I'm a great believer in stories having a beginning, middle and an end, and Peter's story can't ever end, and remains perpetually middle - super tantric storytelling - and as such can't help but jar increasingly against his origins. He either stays the same perpetually (boring) or changes and evolves from the original premise (diluting, unconvincing). I mean, they do a good job of sustaining these narratives through perpetual retelling of the same stories to different markets, and by the abandonment of evolution that has occurred in the past (continual variations on a theme, each previous theme having reverted), but there's something relentlessly unsatisfying about it. Reminds me of playing World of Warcraft in some ways.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
13:34 / 11.08.06
The real problem with his "perpetual middle" is that for a while there, before comics publishers twigged on the fact that these characters needed to keep going forever and ever and ever, Spider-Man got more of an organic life and character arc than any other character has since -- he graduated high school, went to college, started a major relationship, lost it, found love again... and then the freeze rays powered on. I'm not enormously bothered by the back-to-school angle, though, because while Peter is obvously brilliant, I've never thought of him as somebody who could really "make it" professionally -- he's obviously a tremendous self-sabotager -- so high-school science teacher sounds like just the level of ambition he'd eventually settle at.

Do we need to go into a "Geeky Spider-Man" thread, or is his being the BEATING EMOTIONAL HEART! and AGONIZED SOCIAL CONSCIENCE! of Civil War enough to keep this going?
 
 
aku aku
14:30 / 11.08.06
Okay ignoring the terrible spiderman characterisation and getting back to the civil war, what exactley was it that the New Warriors did that was so bad? Okay they were being filmed, and yes they attacked the villians near a school, but it seems to me the reaction amoungst their peers has been a little over the top. I mean if were talking about endangering the public, how about having battles in the middle of new york

Personally I find the heros all a little macho and ready to fight, which is a problem for me because lets say that someone is controlling them surely they would notice.


"oh look I'm beating the crap out of one of my oldest friends who I've trusted my life to time and time again, hmmm, this doesn't seem right somehow, maybye, just maybye I'm being mindcontrolled ....AGAIN"
 
 
Spaniel
20:36 / 08.09.06
Preview of ish 4

Yet more spot on characterisation, then.
 
  

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