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Underground > Comic Books >

Marvel's 'Civil War'.

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18:39 / 21.07.06

Yes, I did read what you wrote, Fly, but I can see why it would look like I didn't

Even if I give Marvel the benefit of the doubt and assume all this is taking place after Murdock's jailbreak, it's still awkward as fuck.

a) Because if Murdock is in jail and Hawkeye - or whoever - is dressed up as him, that would be stupid, because, you know, everyone knows he's in jail, and by everyone I mean the general public.

b) And if Murdock is free, why would Barton disguise himself as a famous fugitive*? Surely that's a brilliant way to draw attention to yourself.

There's more but it's Friday night and I can't be bothered.

*I should stress that I'm talking about the famous fugitive Matt Murdock and not DD

21:08 / 21.07.06

See, I would posit that it's perfectly in character for Hawkeye - who tends to do silly, impetuous things because they seemed like a good idea for about two seconds while he wasn't actually paying attention... which, Hawkeye will then follow through to the bitter end even after he's absolutely sure he's made a stupid decision. This is how he ended up fighting Iron Man, how he joined the Avengers by arrow-tying their butler, and ran around with those Not-the-Masters-of-Evil (Really-We-Mean-It).

Hawkeye probably would think it was a helpful thing to do, dressing up like Daredevil. And even after being shot at by who knows how many cops who think he's an escaped con ex-lawyer playboy ass... he'd still keep doing it.

And it's a short jump from purple leather to red. Shorter than spandex to leather, or non-acrobatic super-aim-guy to Daredevil-impersonator.

Maybe it's Ronin.

21:33 / 21.07.06

Re: What side is the Sentry on.

He can be seen, quite clearly, getting angry along with the Iron Man team on the cover of Frontline issue one. He's about to smack the Human Torch in the guts.

22:35 / 21.07.06

I like that cover if only because, at a glance, it looks like Logan's cupping Steve's waist. I'm so glad he found someone.

22:31 / 25.07.06

Hold up just one damn second...Isn't Johnny the on-fire boy in a coma right now? A comic cover that misleads the reader? This can't be...

22:36 / 25.07.06

That cover indicates shit-all, given Goliath is making angry faces at his present 'Secret Avenger' team-mates and Wolverine, well, he's off hunting Nitro and not really on anyone's side, but maybe Iron Man's a bit, that being the official X-line.

22:37 / 25.07.06

Sorry, that ought to have read 'team-mate', singular.

rabideyemovement

03:06 / 26.07.06

Johnny just woke up from his coma last week. I'm glad to see him on Cap's side, but I still don't understand how Ben Grimm is on Stark's team after that FF issue where he refused to take sides.
And in case anyone missed it, the script in last week's Civil War Director's Cut names Daredevil as Danny Rand, not Clint Barton... but eh, who knows what to believe anymore?

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:02 / 26.07.06

It's been confirmed that different edition of the 'Director's Cut' have been printed as a "shell game" to keep readers guessing.

Also, the early covers for Civil War are not meant to indicate specific sides, they're just thematic "heroes be fightin!" covers.

Anyway... I feel dirty for buying this now, and not in a good way. Oh Millar. I have come to the conclusion that it's not the plot dymanics that are the problem - i.e., it's not so much that the reasons for the split and how it happens and who takes what side are that bad, or that it happens too quickly. The problem is the characterisation. Millar struggles to write his main characters as anything other than obnoxious, needlessly aggressive meatheads at the best of times, and so inevitably here Captain America and Iron Man come off as COMPLETE IDIOTS. "You shouldn't have taken down two of my BOYS, Tony!" - they've only been tranquilised, for fuck's sake! "PUNCHY PUNCH PUNCH with my METAL FISTS, Steve!" And it now becomes clear that Millar's technique for the end of each issue is "Bad characterisation, you say? Look over there! A WTF moment!"

I'd put a tenner on Hercules to die if the bookies would take it. He's established enough for it to seem reasonably important, but nobody actually cares. And it would explain Aries showing up in an Avengers book soon, which has been foretold.

I'm not sure how I can justify carrying on with this when I was so justly mean about Infinite Crisis, though.

11:55 / 26.07.06

Agreed. It's embarrassing enough to still be reading any comics at all at the age of seventy five, but, going over Civil War #3 in one of my locals the other day, it occurred to me that I'd have felt less cheapened, and more proud of myself, if I'd been trying to get to grips with the latest 'Razzle.'

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

15:02 / 26.07.06

In the X-men tie in, was that Scalphunter breaking out as one of the 198?

Isn't he a mass murderer? I can't imagine the X-men being down with him living there.

17:04 / 26.07.06

I didn't read it, Elijah, but he was at the mansion during the superb 'Blood of Apocalypse' storyline, so yes. However, given Sabretooth is also going to be on the Carey team, and has been in X-Factor beforehand, there is some precedent.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:47 / 26.07.06

Oh, right, Sabretooth was introduced as part of the same Moorlock killing gang wasn't he.

18:23 / 26.07.06

Aye, Marauders, wasn't it?

18:33 / 26.07.06

The problem is the characterisation.

It really, really is. It's just sooo awfully bad.

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:10 / 28.07.06

So far I've found a lot of the Civil War related titles to be noticeably better than the main - both the latest New Avengers and the first issue of the Civil War: X-Men mini are pretty solid stuff. I think the concept's strong, it's just that... well, see above.

22:35 / 28.07.06

I thought the X-Men were staying out of this little conflict...

22:47 / 28.07.06

Bishop's signed up for the pro side because, I think, he believes it will prevent his dystopian future from occurring. Cable, otoh, has signed up with Cap because he thinks registry foreshadows his dystopian future. Doubtless they'll face off and shoot at each other with guns whilst arguing quantum probability. (That sounds alright, aksherly.)

05:49 / 30.07.06

So far I've found a lot of the Civil War related titles to be noticeably better than the main - both the latest New Avengers and the first issue of the Civil War: X-Men mini are pretty solid stuff.

I didn't like the previous New Avengers (the first Civil War issue), so I avoided the most recent one. I liked most of the first two issues of Civil War: Front Line, but those pretentious backup features with the Japanese internment camps and Caesar crossing the Rubicon were right up there in the running with the History of the DCU backups over in 52 for Most Painful Read In Comics History, so I dropped that, too.

I'm of two minds about Young Avengers/Runaways. The characterization of the Runaways seems a bit off, and it's a bit jarring to follow up the big event in Runaways #18 with this mostly-unrelated crossover storyline. However, I think I might be judging it by the unrealistic standard of the Runaways ongoing, and it does have some great moments (Molly picking up the car, the sadistic SHIELD bastards realizing that Victor's a robot and gleefully letting him have it, etc).

Plus, I'm curious to see how the parallels and connections between members of the two teams get addressed (Hulkling and Xavin both being Skrulls, Vision and Victor both being created by Ultron, etc.).

I dropped X-Factor a few months ago, because I-know-stuff Layla Miller was getting on my last nerve, but it does sound like there are some interesting plot developments over there with regard to Pietro.

17:15 / 01.08.06

I've been more or less enjoying the "event", though after dropping way too much cash on IC I'm limiting my involvement in this one to the main book and Frontline and the couple of Marvel titles I was already buying anyway. I thought the latest Luke Cage-centric New Avengers was the best single CW-related issue so far -- first time I've found myself really emotionally involved with the story, really viscerally caring what happened.

As for the longer-term effects of CW, it's difficult at this point to see how the more strident pro-reg characters can really be salvaged afterward. I especially don't see how Iron Man in particular doesn't end up broken as a usable character, unless he's being set up to die in the final issue and be replaced by a new Iron Man, which strikes me as unlikely for various reasons.

18:59 / 01.08.06

I especially don't see how Iron Man in particular doesn't end up broken as a usable character

It's a problem, certainly. I suppose one way round it might be the this; that Tony Stark has been back on the sauce, and consequently so shitfaced the whole time that the armour (the car that's always got him home safe and sound in the past,) has sort of given up on his garbled instructions, and decided to pursue an agenda all of it's own.

Less interestingly, there's a hint in this month's Spider-Man Civil War tie-in that the armour Tony designs is hackable and ... Actually, why do I care about this stuff? I don't, really. I hope I don't. It is terrible rubbish

20:08 / 01.08.06

See, it really isn't stuff about hackable armour that bothers me, if that kind of thing bothers you I have to wonder why you're reading superhero comics in the first place.

Millar's gaggle of gleeful, sadistic twats, on the other hand...

00:11 / 02.08.06

Which makes me wonder why you're reading Millarcomics.

11:52 / 02.08.06

Because I like the idea of CW - I think it has potential - and I also like to live in hope.

13:45 / 02.08.06

I dropped X-Factor a few months ago, because I-know-stuff Layla Miller was getting on my last nerve, but it does sound like there are some interesting plot developments over there with regard to Pietro.

It's the only part of CW I've actually read as a monthly. Mutant Town is under X-Factor's protection and Quicksilver is hiding out with them. The X-Men turned up to arrest him but Madrox and co had just found out about the events of House of M (thanks to Siren hypnotising Spiderman) and were a little ticked off at Cyclops and the gang.

Nice moment with Madrox taking an optic blast meant for Siren, creating tons of duplicates and telling the X-Men to piss off.

Also had an explorer dupe turn up that had been recruited by SHIELD and had come to register everyone.

So Quicksilver has time powers now as I understand it?

Phex: Dorset Doom

16:00 / 02.08.06

Yeah (takes a deep breath): After House of M and all that he went to wherever it is the Inhumans live (the moon I think) and used the Terrigen Mists (floaty blue stuff) to re-empower himself, but instead of re-empowering him the mists turbo-charged his powers so he could move through time. He teleported back to Earth with his daughter Luna and a big tank of blue-crazy-mutant-gas to huff off, believing it could restore lost mutant powers. He ended up in Genosha, restored the powers of a few former mutants, had a fight with Magneto, the Inhumans and SHEILD. Afterwards he jumped further into the future than he had previously been able to, seeing a terrifying vision of destruction or some such ("Millar's... characterisation...of... Iron...Man" he whispered, before passing out from sheer horror).
He seems to have huffed enough Terrigen gas (made from a forbidden combination of modelling glue and paint thinner) to re-empower mutants by touch, but the side-effects are unpredictable due to the DNA he shares with the Scarlet Witch.

17:24 / 02.08.06

>> It's a problem, certainly. I suppose one way round it might be the this; that Tony Stark has been back on the sauce, and consequently so shitfaced the whole time that

Or the other rumor that has floated around can explain Stark's behavior in CW.....an old Marvel baddie with the initials shared by the "House [of] M" crossover.

Either way, I don't see how he's broken....after CW, he'll feel really bad and guilty and just have more to redeem about himself - classic Marvel hero. He's got his alcoholic personal demons AND "I turned on my friend Captain AMERICA for crying out loud!!!" to deal with.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

19:37 / 02.08.06

I knew all along Hubris Monkey was to blame.

Rachel Evil McCall

02:08 / 03.08.06

...

Hate Monger?

Wasn't he the guy who was Hitler?

rabideyemovement

21:48 / 05.08.06

I don't see how the characterization of Stark is being mishandled. The mistakes he's currently making seem exactly the type a super-wealthy, sometimes greedy, usually self-centered, alcohlic industrialist with political ambitions would make if faced with a registration movement like this. It's not as if he's evil; he still thinks he's doing the right thing.
I'm assuming Marvel wants to make an ass out of him so they can replace him with Rhodey for a while, maybe even drown him in booze and bad intentions for a while... at least that's how I hope it ends up, because right now, i'd like to see Tony Stark get his clock cleaned.
Bendis has hinted that at the end of this story, it may not be the same people wearing the Iron Man and Captain America costumes... If that's the case, then it's only fair that Bucky fill Cap's boots, while Steve Rogers sweats out his patriotism in Guantanamo Bay. (wouldn't that be a kick?!)

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:55 / 05.08.06

Maybe Tony and Steve will just switch costume and armour to misdirect the bad guys? Hey, it worked for Batman and Superman.

09:30 / 06.08.06

Ha. That would be funny. Captain America gets felled in one punch while Iron Man stands nearby with grumbling noises from inside of the form, "Can't even programme the damn VCR..."

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:23 / 06.08.06

Best ending ever.

Not sure whether this should go in here or the New Avengers thread, but having now read NA #22, I can see what people mean. The extent to which this is a better piece of work that #21 is actually startling - maybe it's just that Bendis is more comfortable with this sort of basically outward-facing introspection, if you see what I mean, or possibly it's that the art, although not particularly to my taste, was not actively ghastly.

I'm finding the progress of time jarring, though - even if I had got NA 22 in time, I would already have seen Captain America's merry band brought low in Civil War 3. Does anyone esle struggle with chronology in these vast crossovers?

23:09 / 06.08.06

I think they do, given that Tom Brevoort has had to - somewhat perversely - insist he will not be providing a chronology for the books. (Can't think of the link, or his rationale for doing so, offhand - sorry.)

It's going to continue to be a problem given both Iron Man and Captain America's own titles haven't actually yet reached Civil War, and will kind-of serve almost as postscripts when they do. (Maybe a little unfair, #22-24 of Cap will be concurrent to Civil War #5-7 by my reckoning.) I'm not so very bothered because I would have found it a little more objectionable if they'd chosen to interrupt an ongoing arc in Cap, say, to do this. This was done with the title's (very good, imho) House of M tie-in, but given there were no actual narrative ramifications was more acceptable.

Given I also a)semi-regularly try and maintain a continuity order to my Marvels and b) have not got any Civil War tie-ins thus far (although Eternals makes mention of it, and I'm now assuming Astonishing X-Men occurs afterward, given Emma's happy chat with Tony last ish of CW. I think I'll try Fraction's Punisher and will defo get Cap) I'm both pretty used to the disjunct and unfazed. I also got Secret War, which threw timelines everywhere right out (due to what happens to Fury,) and took around 19 months or so for it's five issues to be completed.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

23:34 / 06.08.06

I skimmed the latest CW Fantastic Four and I liked Ben Grimm's response to the whole thing. In the general the Four seem headed for one of their semi-annual family breakups and I'm curious if Marvel will follow tradition and come up with some random and potentially ridiculous line-up for them. Or warring Fantastic Fours! Reed with his gang and Susan with hers. They could do an arc called "Four Against Four" or something.

It'd be kind of neat (golly gosh) if Isaiah Bradley ends up as the new/old Captain America afterward.

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