BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Infinite Crisis

 
  

Page: 1 ... 7891011(12)1314151617... 27

 
 
Aertho
12:51 / 10.11.05
because I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

Except, of course, there's the suggestion that THIS Crisis is supposed to change the DCU.

For the better. Whatever that may be.
 
 
Aertho
13:09 / 10.11.05
Fair enough, if you don't like it, don't buy it any more. Wait for a new creative team. Grow up even, and stop reading comics altogether (this is a hypothetical, btw, there's no fucking way I'd be giving up the funny books. Kill me first).

And I'm getting tired of this argument.

We're not bitching about the plot. We're bitching about the state of affairs that greenlights this plot. We're bitching aboiut the fact that the media form that can and does do amazing things is tied to an industry that is making a grandiose "move" in the most pidgeonholing way possible. I'm supposed to grow up and not buy these books? Isn't that just making the real problem worse? I want more. I want more for kids. I want more for the industry, and the medium. Less "realistic" assrape. More mythic Jet-powered apes.

This ain't an attack. Just for argument sake.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:31 / 10.11.05
Believe me, I am not buying these books! Odd that there should be a simultaneous cry of a) don't criticise the concept if you haven't read the books, and b) if you don't like the books don't read them. I reserve my right to skim some of these atrocities in the shop and then give Johns - and Judd "Fearsome Five have mind-control sex!" Winick - the benefit of my mockery and abuse, or MABUSE if you will.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:42 / 10.11.05
See, but that argument only works if the DCU up and swallowed every other non-related comic book on Earth. Cerebus is a massively insular work that loses pretty much all of its significant weight unless you've read 300 of its issues. How is Infinite Crisis or the thinking behind its inception that much different? It's taking the entire disparate universe and melding it together. And to be honest, although there were several issues of other comics that were tied gracefully into Infinite Crisis #2, none of them were necessary reading to enjoy the comic. Gotham Central #37 might serve as the emotional lynchpin of the entire three year continuity orgy that is Inifnite Crisis and its lead up, but if you missed it, it's not like Infinite Crisis itself will be a muddled incomprehensible mess.

As far as the industry goes, I think the market has proved that the mainstream is not at all interested in the DC Universe in its Ongoing Continuity Form. So why bother trying to make it accessible? Why not just drop the pretense (Do 95% of Marvels readers read even one word on the summary pages?) and make the entire thing work as a whole? And continuity based Superbooks have never and will never be a force in mainstream media. No one would ever pretend to put Crisis or Infinity Gauntlet on a Best Novels Of Whatever list. They simply exist to provide a healthy dosage of Fuck Yes moments. And when you build up a series of disparate Fuck Yes moments, exponentially the big Fuck Yes moment it's leading up to will be that much more satisfying.

I don't think DC is shooting themselves in the foot by stengthening the bonds of their universe. Matter of fact, it probably makes more business sense to try and get less people interested in your whole line than more people interested in a small segment of it. What would they rather have, the 20-odd readers of Firestorm who are pissed it's getting wrapped up in Infinite Crisis, or the thousands of Infinite Crisis readers that have given Firestorm a shot because they happened to pick up one of the crossovers issues, discovered it was a legitimately kick ass book (It is, you weren't drunk) and have now gone off and filled in the rest of the book's run?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
13:51 / 10.11.05
... Dr Mabuse? Is he in the Secret Society too?

And again for arguement's sake, they've tried appealing to the kids in the past and it's just not working. And if you want jetpacked monkeys, I remind you of a long drawn-out thread about Outsiders which featured exactly that. So... I think you all (a few posters have brought up this image) mean something more specific.

And I did say time and money, Peter. Skiming through month after month of comics you're more or less guaranteed to hate is... pretty weird if I may say so. I don't go hunting down Keanu Reeves films to 'give him the business' online now, do I?... well I closed the site two months ago so there. I don't anymore.

This is not a 'great' comic book. It's not something you hand to someone with bated breath saying, 'You gotta read this.' That's We3 or Scene of the Crime. This is plain old comics. It's monthly rags that happen to merge into one story which I like, some of you don't.

And while IC will 'change everything' in the DCU, it won't change the state of the industry, it is, as some of you have pointed out, a product of the state of the industry, like it or not.

We are definitely in a repeat of the spectator boom of the 90's, no mistake there. Things are ugly for quality comics. Christ, Peter Milligan is writing X-Men!!

I'm definitely reliving a fun state of comic fan I last experienced as a kid, crystalized in JLA #200 which one way or the other you should all own. Will I still be happy when Infinite Crisus wraps up? Who knows. I could be ome grumpy dude burning a state of plastic covered wastes of time.

We'll see.
 
 
Spaniel
14:04 / 10.11.05
Infinite Crisis makes you feel like you're having kid-fun?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:06 / 10.11.05
Before I say yes... is that a euphamism for something terrible?
 
 
Mario
14:10 / 10.11.05
"They simply exist to provide a healthy dosage of Fuck Yes moments."

All I've ever wanted..

It seems to me that some of the detractors of Infinite Crisis (a.k.a. 8C) seem unwilling to differentiate between what they NEED to know to enjoy a story, and what they WANT to know.

Let's take Superboy, for example. In my opinion, all we really need to know, to understand his brief appearance in 8C#1, is that he's undergone a crisis of faith, and stopped adventuring. That's it, really.

But I've read posts that consider the Titans/Outsiders crossover that triggered this event a VITAL part of Infinite Crisis. And, to me, that's overkill.

Johns & co. are trying, with limited success, to keep the meat of 8C in the actual issues. EVERYTHING else is gravy.
 
 
Spaniel
14:19 / 10.11.05
I have never read a comic written by Geoff Johns that had any "FUCK YES" moments (IMO...). I think the man stinks at writing drama.

The last comic that made me feel like an excited child was the Manhattan Guardian.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:29 / 10.11.05
Not a dig at your or anyone else's taste as I know 7 Soldiers is adored here, but I was so disappointed in this concept series glorified by a writer and his fanbase and not much else. Even the ad campaign has a large blow-up of Grant screaming in the background as if it affects the story.

While I thought Manhattan Guardian was the better series and loved Cameron's art, the writing was piss-poor. We get SOME character development when Grant remembers to put it in there and the main character gets side-lined for a foolish story about pirates that was too up it own ass to be enjoyable followed by a Filth left-over story and a resolution that makes no sense and lifts from a whole other set of characters... and a cliffhanger that links up to a comic that will be released about a year later... brilliant.

Sorry, but while I own nearly everything Grant has done including the 2000AD Zenith comics, I hardly see that mini as a good comic. It was crap that only existed to support the rest of the 7 Soldiers ego project.

So I think that sets us straight as being in two camps, yes?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:46 / 10.11.05
Shit dude, you want me to list them? Hal Jordan telling Sinestro to step off from upside Kyle Rayner's head in Green Lantern: Rebirth is the first one off my head. That was incredibly Fuck Yes.

And, personally, I think the guy excels at writing drama. Although, in terms of MR6's Two Camps Initiative, I'll have to be all Bill Maher Libertarian up in this mug, because I love both 7S AND 8C equally (and thanks for that handy shorthand!).

I can't think of anything really excerable that I've read by Johns either, which I certainly can't say for Winick (Outsiders), Rucka (Wolverine), or Simone (Teen Titans). JSA, although made up of some highly uninteresting characters by and large, is still compelling stuff. The Flash was also good stuff in a crazy pop superhero superstar kind of way, even if the art didn't always fit that approach. Green Lantern, well, Rebirth was what got me back into the DCU so I've got nothing but love for that.

And Inifinite Crisis is something I'm highly enjoying. Someone pointed out next door that Johns writes for the splash page. Yes. But the splash page wouldn't work without the 21 pages pushing you towards it. That's pretty much the epitome of the Fuck Yes moment whether it's the Rebirth example I cited or "Today...Today I'm going to be a soldier." You throw the book down and raise your fists with a "GOOD COMICS!" Steve Holt style.
 
 
Mario
15:52 / 10.11.05
We came up with the 8C notation on KBOX. It helps avoid confusion with Identity Crisis

(The "writing for the splash page" is mine, too )
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:11 / 10.11.05
Benjamin, there are few who can be in numerous camps at once.

You lucky dog, you.

The Flash reads up on engineering and builds a new bridge as the villain tears it apart with her magnetic powers was a big old 'FUCK YEAH' moment for me.

And I somehow performed an extra-ordinary effort of out of logic escape and 'believed' the death of Hawkman issue where he was torn to pieces by Manhawks. That last page popped my eyes out.

Ahmm.... oh yeah and the Hal Jordan jumps from his plane, lands on the robot Manhunter's back and pops his ring into the it's head, recharging his ring blew my fucking FUCK YEAH mind. The comic, I have to admit, was pretty snoozy up until then.

What were your FUCK YEAH moments from 8C #2?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
16:44 / 10.11.05
Hmmmmm...not too much that made me jump up and kick something, but the last page was really something. I guess my biggest Fuck Yes moment was seeing the cover for #3. I mean, whoa.

Also, strung up heroes on the Washington Monument and the escalation of actual war with the VU.

I mean, whoa.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:58 / 10.11.05
That's what it takes to get a whoa out of the mighty Benjamin?

Infinite Crisis is just starting to seem excessively reactionary at this point.

Ye Olde Superman is a total prick. I found it especially disturbing that for all the horrible things that would go on in the world no matter what, the only thing that concerned him was the behavior of the superheroes, who apparently should never adapt to drastic situations and should only have good things happen to them.

Since Geoff Johns is such an awful writer, it's hard to tell whether or not we are supposed to really like and support the intentions of Ye Olde Superman, or if Johns wants the reader to recognize the flaws in his motivations. I think it'd be actually quite interesting to see Ye Olde Superman become the "villain" of this story.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
18:36 / 10.11.05
I certainly don't like and support Ye Olde Superman (so much better than Kal-L, thank you Matthew).

And dude, Lex Luthor killed a guy! And hung him on the Washingtom Monument! And Batman has decide whether or not to completely eradicate existence itself! Seriously!

It's not as if I was all "Fred Dukes is so not fat anymore. Whoa."

God that comic was so ass terrible.
 
 
Tom Coates
19:09 / 10.11.05
It seems clear to me that the Earth 2 Superman is on earth to try and change the planet back to something reactionary and depressing and that this is not going to happen. I think he really is being set up to fail here - or at least to succeed in a completely unexpected way in defiance of his original objectives. I am completely not trusting Alexander Luthor either - he's looking creepier every issue - he doesn't have that naivety and innocence of the Alexander Luthor of the original crisis, and the whispering in the ear in the previous issue seemed to me to be manipulation from the Luthor camp. I basically think Kal-L is a patsy for a Luthor with a larger agenda.

In the meantime, I have to say - with guilty conscience - I'm bloody loving Infinite Crisis. I read my very first comics just about halfway through the original crisis and heavily imprinted on that kind of writing and the pre-Crisis universe, and somehow everything that followed for a couple of years was somehow weirdly flat. In the late nineties we had this wonderful renaissance of great space opera and silver age madness - at least partly because of Grant's work on JLA which was genuinely genre reinvigorating (as is - i think - the Seven Soldiers stuff). It was a kind of return to Silver Age values, but merged in with a much more up-to-date scientific perspective, a hyper-compressed form of comic book writing with dense plotlines that don't let you breathe to question the clumsy bits, and characters that are absolutely true to their core purpose - Superman is a symbol of strength and integrity, Batman is the most determined and focused human being in existence etc. I think there's lots of space to bring that back to the fore, and I'm really looking forward to it. JSA has partially shown the way here as well. That's been good for ages. Proper superheroes. Brand new and retro. A reinvigorated core of the centre of superheroism.

And you know what else I love? A Booster Gold that I can take seriously. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I loved his original series - in the eighties he was a fascinating character - a superhero who was shiny, aspirational, high-tech and conventionally 'successful'. He was gradually revealed to have more depth, went through some difficult experiences and was rebuilt from the ground up - only to be completely betrayed by the Millennium storyline which - if I remember correctly - really really really upset me as a complete mischaracterisation of my favourite hero of the times. And then the Justice League came along and gradually made a joke of him and Blue Beetle, whose first DC series again was actually pretty good. If they manage to bring those characters (or - it seems - the hypothetical first Blue Beetle) back and restore them to what they should be, I'll frankly be incredibly happy. Incredibly.

So yeah - there's nostalgia, but I think it's fix some mistakes, create an agenda and a perspective and a goal for the universe, reboot some reboots and forge on ahead with something disciplined, aspirational, positive and hopefully enormously fun. Yay Infinite Crisis. So far I love you!
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:17 / 10.11.05
disciplined, aspirational, positive and hopefully enormously fun.

How is it that you say in seven words what it takes me like 18 posts to get at. Kudos. That's exactly what the dang I'm talking about.
 
 
Aertho
19:35 / 10.11.05
If they manage to bring those characters back and restore them to what they should be, I'll frankly be incredibly happy. Incredibly.

Wasn't this the impetus for the recently cancelled Excalibur series by Claremont? Only with Magneto?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:40 / 10.11.05
I don't see how making Blue Beetle and Booster Gold SUPER SERIOUS is going to be more fun than the two of them engaging in wacky hijinks on Kooey Kooey Kooey.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:45 / 10.11.05
Honestly, I don't see how much of anything in the DC Universe would be improved by not being mainly about wacky hijinks and far out ideas. The #1 problem with DC is that it's become so ridiculously stuffy and self-serious. It's such ridiculous overcompensation.
 
 
Spaniel
19:52 / 10.11.05
Having read Infinite Crisis 2 I have to own up to liking the Joker's cameo, if only because I suspect he's going to kill a lot of oh so grim and gritty villains. Could he be the Society's downfall?
 
 
Spaniel
19:55 / 10.11.05
I don't see how making Blue Beetle and Booster Gold SUPER SERIOUS is going to be more fun than the two of them engaging in wacky hijinks on Kooey Kooey Kooey.

To be fair Flux, I'm not sure that's what Tom said.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:03 / 10.11.05
Well, that whole "restore their dignity" stuff always seems to result in bland serious drabness.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
20:09 / 10.11.05
Grant's JLA was a return to greatness and hardly boring.
 
 
Spaniel
20:55 / 10.11.05
I'd agree.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:49 / 10.11.05
I'd disagree.
 
 
The Falcon
22:38 / 10.11.05
Well, you might, but I'd imagine you'd have a harder time making charges like 'bland, serious, drab' sticking?
 
 
diz
23:04 / 10.11.05
Ye Olde Superman is a total prick.

That's my take, too.

It seems clear to me that the Earth 2 Superman is on earth to try and change the planet back to something reactionary and depressing and that this is not going to happen.

I agree there. However, I'm still not sure what exactly is going to result.

Honestly, I don't see how much of anything in the DC Universe would be improved by not being mainly about wacky hijinks and far out ideas. The #1 problem with DC is that it's become so ridiculously stuffy and self-serious. It's such ridiculous overcompensation.

There are a lot of tricky lines to be negotiated here. I think that there's a general recognition that superhero comics have become too unrelentingly dark and that things need to be lightened up a bit, and that everyone's become a tormented antihero for no particular reason. That's probably a good realization.

However, I worry that the response to that will be the sort of stuffy new traditionalism that Flux seems to be afraid of happening. I don't agree that Geoff Johns, overall, is a terrible writer, but he has bad tendencies, all of which are in prime form here and in the new GL ongoing. Big, stoic, straightforward, and terribly fucking dull superheroics - so boring and self-important I could scream.

I like that they're recognizing some of the problems, but I worry about some of the solutions they seem inclined to try.
 
 
matsya
01:54 / 11.11.05
matsya: "Has anyone else picked up on the fact that the plot elements of this whole Crisis thing hinge on shoddy, incomplete writing?"

six: Well... that's what the original Crisis did as well. In fact, it's kind of inherent in a reboot, isn't it?


But as I understand it, the first Crisis was a consolidation of the cast of characters that could "officially" be written about, or to a larger extent, which parts of the history of the DCU could be referred to.

This Crisis seems to be about limiting the kind of styles of writing that can be used, ie, no more grimNgritty(tm). Which is a whole 'nother ballgame. Lacrosse, maybe.
 
 
SiliconDream
04:09 / 11.11.05
There are a lot of tricky lines to be negotiated here. I think that there's a general recognition that superhero comics have become too unrelentingly dark and that things need to be lightened up a bit, and that everyone's become a tormented antihero for no particular reason. That's probably a good realization.

Well, it would be, if the guys creating the story weren't in large measure responsible for that problem. That's what was so weird about Kal-L's complaint--we see him bitching about the darkness and failure of the DCU, and meantime all the most horrid stuff being recounted is from the last couple of years, Identity Crisis stuff and Crazy Luthor Superboy and so forth. I find it very odd to see Geoff Johns writing "The story of how Geoff Johns shouldn't help write such horrible things." I mean, granted, Morrison did the same thing in Animal Man, but at least he showed up at the end to personally explain that he did it because comic writers and readers are rather unpleasant people and sorry about that.

There were references to earlier dark events, like the Death of Superman--but does anyone really think of that as along the lines of arserape and murdering pregnant ladies? I didn't think it was a particularly good story, but it was hardly dark or depressing--just Superman being his usual heroic self and triumphing in his death. I don't really see how we-the-readers are supposed to be convinced that the Post-Crisis DCU was always heading toward a bitter end. It seems fairly obvious that the current Powers That Be gave it a pronounced shove in that direction a couple of years ago just so they could bemoan it now.
 
 
Benny the Ball
07:01 / 11.11.05
It's funny how John Byrne has been complaining about all this anti-hero stuff for years, how superheros are so rarely heroes just for being a heroes sake, and that they always need a nasty situation to get the ball rolling.

Well, not funny.

Maybe John Byrne will appear along with Peter David and have a cosmic battle in the sky as the Marvel earth shudders underneath, E2 superman pointing and going 'look, do you want this?'
 
 
Tom Coates
09:05 / 11.11.05
Well I think the interesting thing about Kal-L is that basically he's on a big nostalgia trip himself - "the past was much better than now - it was all golden and lovely, and then it all went so horribly wrong - why can't the present be like the past". I think you have to view that as an older person's nostalgia taking over from reality - perhaps the nature of the world has changed, perhaps things have got more complex or at least more visibly so, or perhaps they've just got less comprehensible to people in their sixties / seventies? That's the way of things, surely? It's pretty clear to me that these are not views shared by a large proportion of the comic book audience - but it's also pretty clear that JSA represents a kind of back to core superhero values book that seems completely against all the odds to have caught people's imagination in a positive way. So I think they're rediscovering the idea that people in capes fighting amazing threats can just be cool and interesting in and of itself and that people are quite happy with the idea of losing themselves in it. There's probably something interesting to open up there about the zeitgeist of the times or a desire for simpler morality or that younger people are feeling more positive and more 21st century about their ability to effect change or something. At least, I hope that's what's going on...

I saw John Le Carré speak the other day and he said that the end of the Cold War meant a tremendous opening up of opportunity to remake the world and change things for the better and that people for a while afterwards were quite nervous and confused about the whole thing, after decades where nothing could really change - we were at the mercy of inexorable forces outside our control. He said that if he was angry about anything since the end of the Cold War it was that people weren't taking up this mission to change the world for the better, or - more specifically - that some people were and that they seemed to be the wrong people. He wanted people to look around them and see the possibilities that had manifested over the last ten years or so as the direct Cold War fallout started to clear and see a world of manifest possibility in which we could each of us make a difference again. I thought that was pretty bloody exciting and interesting and really wanted to feel that possibility again. The world that Kal-L is talking about is a world of good and evil, but let's remember (even if he's not) that the past he's talking about is a world of World Wars and racial tensions and Holocausts and oppressed minorities, just as much as it's a world of mom and apple pie. He's focusing on the good stuff alone and ignoring the bad. I'm hoping the end of this plotline will be about looking to the future in a positive way, aspiring to the best we can be, fighting the challenges in moral and honourable ways. Reinventing the world of tomorrow. That would be neat.

Finally - the whole Booster / Beetle honour thing. It might sound deflating after the passion of the previous paragraph, but Booster Gold was never a pompous superhero, he was a life-loving superhero for the most part, excited by the possibilities of the world and trying to work out how to be a good person in it. He was flashy, cool and - frankly - kind of beautiful. It was all about escape and freedom with a gradual attempt to reconcile it with a bit of responsibility, but in a lighter and less angsty way than even Spiderman did it. When I talk about his dignity, I mean he felt like a two and a half dimensional person with hope and an innocence and some flaws who had occasional serious life problems who was then reduced first to being a traitor in Millenium and then to being the butt end of jokes in JLA. Beetle too - this was a man who started a huge and highly successful technology company, created a whole range of revolutionary tools and ships, got by on his wits and his physical training and who had a sense of humour. But he wasn't a joke! He was a brilliant, self-trained fun-loving superhero - with more technical smarts than Batman (a flying bug, for god's sake - it didn't even have wings) and all the repartee of a superhero at their best. In no way am I about dragging them down and making them into pompous, stolid, harrassed, angsty heroes. But I'd like them to be taken seriously as, well, men - even if they are men who have fun with being superheroes.
 
 
Mario
10:33 / 11.11.05
"That's what was so weird about Kal-L's complaint--we see him bitching about the darkness and failure of the DCU, and meantime all the most horrid stuff being recounted is from the last couple of years"

I think that may have been done on purpose. If, as we seem to be thinking, Alexander is not on the side of the angels, it's possible that those are the only images Kal-L has seen. So, from his perspective, the DCU has become an evil place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:51 / 11.11.05
Oh, I don't know - it seems to me you have three phases - Post-Crisis JLA, then Death of Superman/Destruction of Coast City/Parallax/Zero Hour, then Identity Crisis onwards - Sue Dibney dying, Superboy's Luthorisation, like that.

There seems to be a lot of stuff about the Death of Superman, which does seem odd because, as mentioned, it didn't really change that much... not even in terms of Coast City, now Jordan's alive again (naturally).
 
  

Page: 1 ... 7891011(12)1314151617... 27

 
  
Add Your Reply