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Infinite Crisis

 
  

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Eloi Tsabaoth
08:34 / 14.10.05
I find it a lot more plausible that they're bringing back the Earth 2 heroes so that they can subject them to the same indignities that the Earth 1 heroes have had to put up with...
 
 
Spaniel
08:34 / 14.10.05
I know what you mean. The concept is fun enough, but I'm worried about the execution.
As far as I'm concerned Geoff Johns is the king of MOR comics. His work is unadventurous, undemanding, unimaginative and ultimately uninteresting. I don't see him bringing us the excitement of DC 100,000, or, for that matter, the downright crazy-strangeness of the original Crisis. Sure, the concepts involved might elevate the material, but almost certainly not enough to warrant shelling out my crispy dollars.
 
 
Spaniel
08:50 / 14.10.05
I was replying to Fly's post.

Crypto, I assume you're joking. That's a really silly idea.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:00 / 14.10.05
"That's a really silly idea" is not something that's going to make GEOFF! "Hal Jordan's hair went grey because of Parallax and it was NOT! HIS! FAULT!" JOHNS! hesitate for very long.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:10 / 14.10.05
Speaking of DC 1,000,000 (basically a very good miniseries with a lot of shit tie-ins), did anyone think of Superman 1,000,000 punching through the time barrier and compare that with a note of terrible sadness to Superman Golden Age punching throught the continuity barrier?
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
09:17 / 14.10.05
Yeah, Supermillion's time drubbing was the business.
The most horrifying thing about this all? 'Pre-crisis' and 'Post-crisis' will no longer be adequate! What will we use now?

'Pre-pre-Crisis'?
'Pre-Post-Crisis'?
'Pre-Crisis2-Post-Crisis1'?
 
 
Aertho
10:51 / 14.10.05
Nu-DCU
 
 
Spaniel
14:21 / 14.10.05
Haus, yeah, I did.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
16:57 / 14.10.05
RANT ALERT

It does seem that the heroes are suffering needlessly, even incomprehensibly since Identity Crisis. That series just killed my enjoyment of these characters. Hopefully, ALL STAR SUPERMAN, just like the JLA Classified series, will be like a shot of Classic Coke in this New Coke world.

These are super-heroes, not cops. Mindwiping someone who will definitely kill your family if they get the chance (and they always get the chance) rather than killing them is DEFINITELY what a hero would do.

What else EXACTLY could they do? Put their families and other innocent people at TERRIBLE risk by not taking away those memories? How would that be more heroic?

At of all the options available, mindwiping the villains was the most heroic. It was the only choice short of killing them WHICH is exactly what the villains would do to anyone (hero, civilian or little baby) who put them at risk. So there is still no comparison, no blurring of lines, between who's a hero and who's a villain.

The heroes have a duty to defend the innocent, protect the weak and punish the wicked. If they have to make ethical sacrifices so that others don't have to suffer, then they are still heroes and far preferable to those that they fight.

My question is why didn't Zatanna take away their powers while she was wiping their memories? Hell, there is absolutely NO REASON Dr. Light deserves to keep his power.

Also, the sheer concept is terrible in that the villains suddenly ban together to protect themselves from the heroes that they've been trying to destroy forever. They don't NEED a reason to want to mind-wipe the heroes. They are villains - destroying heroes is what they DO!!

The whole thing implies that since the first Crisis, the heroes and villains have been playing this ludicrous game and actually holding back. It means that everything we've read has been reduced to irrelevance or insignificance prior to this crisis because until now, no one's taken this seriously.

In the end, the whole "crisis" in Identity Crisis is a failure of the editors and writers to provide a believable moral alternative, and it is not a failure of the heroes. They were written into a situation where they could kill a person who they caught red-handed raping and torturing a close friend and who would use his contacts to do the same to their friends and family even in prison. So, they could kill him, they could simply put him in jail and wait for the phone call about which of their loved ones were tortured to death or they could mindwipe him. Since that's all they could do, they made the choice that left him alive and protected innocent people from suffering.

Should they have then quit? Given their city's to the villains because they weren't allowed to find a completely ethical solution?

No, of course not - this is what a hero is all about. The focus on this as a crisis is really a manufactured device that would only work if the heroes were given another even more ethical option.

IF DC’s stories had been taking place in the world Grant Morrison made it in JLA (especially the EARTH 2 mini series/TPB) where good eventually always wins out in this universe, then maybe it would be okay to just let these guys go without tampering with their minds. Because, in that universe, as long as you made the most ethical choice in every situation then you’d But didn't some hero's mom end up in tupperware containers in the refrigerator? IDC set up these villains as having no moral compunction against any horrible act. The death penalty certainly should be applied to these guys, BUT since no one can die in the DCU, to perform the duties they've sworn themselves to WITHOUT simply killing the villains (like they really should) then what else, really is their choice?

Essentially, we readers have gone along with the fact that none of the villains die simply because it leaves them alive for good stories, but editorial concerns have twisted that and made it part of the problem all of a sudden. What should have happened is that Dr. Light and all these villains are treated like clear and prensent dangers to the state, tried without given any contact to the outside world and executed immediately. I mean, they are superpowered mass murderers who've threatened entire cities. But since editorial has chosen to ask us to suspend disbelief in this regard, how can we even buy that lobotomizing instead of killing one of these creeps to protect people who are actually good is morally worse than leaving them capable of doing more damage? How can that put our heroes anywhere close to the level of Luthor, Light or even Deathstroke? Where are the lines blurred?

On top of that, then all the villains get like "now the gloves are off!"

“NOW!” the gloves are off?!

Why have I been reading all this sissy crap for the past 20 years if only now they're serious about it? Really, the villains’ feelings about the mindwiping should be irrelevant.

If IDC is at all valid, then we have been reading the wimpiest crybaby comic universe since the first Crisis. The villains don't need a reason to hate or kill the heroes. Hell, that's how this all started with the Dr. Light business. Why was he raping Sue Dibny? Why was he going to destroy their families when he next got the chance? He didn't need this mindwiping business to get him going in the first place - why do all the other villains need it? When they went out to destroy a city or burn babies alive were they just doing it so Superman or Batman would show up to foil their plans and show them what a true hero is?

NO! If they were serious villains, they did it because they wanted power or money or vengence or anything else, and they want to kill the heroes because they are standing in their way. NOT because they have betrayed the hero's code.

However, in Villains Unite, Gail Simone pulls off the society in a very interesting way. If you look at all the extraordinary people, good and evil, as their own class, then they'd need a society, rules of order. Of course, it makes no sense to expect these truly evil people to forge any stable society, but that was the whole point of Villains United. Unity is impossible among these creeps, so only six of them (chosen by the most brilliant of them all) can throw a wrench in the whole thing.

In a perfect world, IDC would never have happened and Gail Simone's VILLAINS UNITED would have taken place entirely separately from this Crisis fiasco. It could have been DC's answer to Millar's WANTED (which was much more entertaining and reasonable than IDC) in the same way that THE ELITE and THE ULTRAMARINES were their answer to THE AUTHORITY and ULTIMATES.

The villains would have formed their society simply out of the direct and reasonable desire to finally do away with the heroes. In the end, Mockingbird would have turned out to be Luthor, but not the real Luthor vs. the Alternate Luthor. He would have been the nihilistic Nietzschean Luthor we all know and love who was manipulating both sides to distract and destroy his rivals and enemies in a war of attrition from which he would emerge the sole survivor.

To deal with the limitations of the basic premise leftover from IDC, Simone used a few very interesting concepts to drive the central action of the story. First, that the extraordinary beings of the world would eventually be forced to form some kind of society to find a stable balance. That a society composed almost entirely of immoral and amoral people, no matter what their power, who evetually tear itself apart and be incapable of facing even the most minor adversity. And, most compelling, the most powerful individual in this group would be Luthor simply because he is by far the most strategically adept.

That, really, is the basic conflict between Superman and Luthor. They both want to be the only Man of Tomorrow. Luthor's advantage and downfall perhaps is that he won't tolerate any rivals or alternatives.
 
 
Aertho
17:09 / 14.10.05
What else EXACTLY could they do?

"OERH-repus a ecomeb!"
 
 
doyoufeelloved
17:23 / 14.10.05
What else EXACTLY could they do?

"OERH-repus a ecomeb!"


They actually did this -- the Flash TPB THE SECRET OF BARRY ALLEN shows how they tried to turn The Top into a hero. It ended very, very badly.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
17:55 / 14.10.05
Yeah, and the "enog-EB sre-WOP s'thgiL rot-COD" command shoulda been tagged on there with the mind wipe.
 
 
John Octave
18:39 / 14.10.05
Yeah, well the problem with that is then you have to ask why Zatanna just doesn't take away EVERY supervillain's power as soon as they're captured. Or why she doesn't say "elpoep gnillik pots rekoJ!" and save the lives of hundreds of potential victims and be done with it.

The more "realistic" (as in, "This is what people with super powers would REALLY do!") the scenario gets, the more holes are presented, and that's why the whole ethically-questionable-mindwipe story is so hard to swallow. DC keeps saying this event is about "What it means to be a hero" in a real-world sense, but that doesn't correspond at all to what it would mean to be an idealistic masked superhero in a world with magic and alien New Gods and superpowes.
 
 
Aertho
18:50 / 14.10.05
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
 
 
John Octave
19:51 / 14.10.05
Yeah, what he said.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
21:27 / 14.10.05
I love that line, but the point is valid.

"Realistically" if the government is willing to allow these unofficial "heroes" to run around, then they must think the "villains" are a serious enough threat to justify it. So, they would also probably execute more than a few of them on the grounds that they are proven and extreme clear and present dangers to social order. Even if they went to trial, I'm fairly sure more than a few would get the death penalty, and after escaping a wreaking havoc for the fifth time- there wouldn't even be a trial before lobotomy.

However, the reasons the villains never die has nothing to do with morality - it's marketing. Suspension of disbelief, so we can keep seeing these characters again and again and again. Actually, if they started eliminating them, the writing might improve after the writer's run out of options for "this month's villain."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:12 / 14.10.05
Actually, I'm not sure that's the case. Killing Doctor Light, say, has no real marketing impact - who on Earth is going to boycott a comic producer because they killed Doctor Light? Who, in the greater scheme of things, gives a shit about Doctor Light? I suspect that it is more ingrained than that - which is why Geoff Johns feels that killing Black Condor will cause anything other than mild irritation - he believes sincerely that to do so is shockingly transgressive.
 
 
The Falcon
22:50 / 14.10.05
who on Earth is going to boycott a comic producer because they killed Doctor Light?

No-one, but ooh they'll threaten. On the internet. [As an aside, I read serious irritation at Carnage's recent fate in New Av's on teh comics internets. At times I wonder if this may be some kind of futuristic mind cancer.]

So, I bought this (was it inevitable? What's the difference between fate and free will? I like to think there was a good chance I wouldn't've,) and didn't find it actually very objectionable, something I did with Johns' first JSA trade which I read in the library; Boboss' MOR comment is strikingly accurate, mind you - my own tendency is to consider him the James Robinson without the talent.

There was a lotta stuff happening, which is pretty good, and while I - also - immediately thought of Supes 1,000,000 at the conclusion it wasn't in a sad way, it was more 'ooh, hypertime/they're breaking through from The Kingdom' which is something I can get on board with conceptually. I like to imagine this as further evidence of sentient fictional universe stuff, although at this point, that's a bit of a leap.

I am quite excited about the post-post-Crisis DCU, which is a contrast to how I feel about the post-HoM Marvel, a ship just waiting to be jumped off, though ironically I expect the latter's slate-clearing/band-aid exercise to be, in the final examination, better written.
 
 
matsya
07:21 / 15.10.05
This whole "light vs. dark" thing reminds me of the conversation that the Flash of Earth-D (or whatever it was called) had with Barry Allen in that Legends of the DCU "Crisis the Untold Tale" comic - this was an apocryphal Crisis story set between issues on a planet that had more ethnically diverse superheroes (Flash was Japanese-American, Green Arrow was Native American, Superman and Superwoman were African-American, &c). Earth D was kind ofset up as good and pure and clean and heroic like the best of the Silver Age is purported to be, and Flash-D was asking Barry A about the whole "your world seemed to get darker and angrier - what's up with that thing" (he was inspired to become Flash because he used to read comics about Barry Allen, just like Barry Allen was inspired to become Flash because he read comics about Jay Garrick - true story) and Flash was all "yeah, fair cop". There was also a confrontation between Earth-D Batman and Earth-1 Batman, with Earth-D Batman telling Earth-1 Batman off for being so dark and angry and stuff, saying "if there's no joy in it then there's no point in it, right" or something like that.

Point is, this was written in 1999, but set back in the late 80s when the first Crisis comics were put out, so it seems like the whole Dark vs. Light DCU argument may have been around TEN YEARS AGO.

Nothing new under the sun.

Also, it's a fucking great superhero comic, you should all read it. Marv Wolfman wrote it. It's nice.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:11 / 15.10.05
Henningjohnathan, while a lot of the points you make are valid, I think you have to ask yourself "Could the time I spent writing that have been better spent going for a nice walk or eating some cake?"

Anyway - the Newsarama theory is going to be wrong, I suspect, because having read the comic, it looks very much as if either Antimatter Alex Luthor or Earth-Prime Superboy are manipulating Old Superman. Whoever it is that whispers in his ear "We can save them all. Even her." probably just wanted to get out of their little bubble, and their doing so will no doubt have bad cosmic consequences.
 
 
Spaniel
22:02 / 15.10.05
Surely that doesn't make the theory wrong, it just complicates things a little.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:27 / 15.10.05
No, I suppose what makes it wrong is that it is a pile of manure written by someone who in all likelihood needs to wear a bib when they eat.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:10 / 17.10.05
In the latest Kyle Baker PLASTIC MAN, Plastic Man "dies" and his sidekick, Woozy Winks, says "So sad. That's what it would really be like to be a superhero (TM). Sad."
 
 
Ganesh
15:17 / 17.10.05
Could one possibly have an infinite crisis? Surely, after a decent period of OMFG CRISIIIS!!1!, people would adjust to the situation and it'd simply become the status quo?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:35 / 17.10.05
When I scanned this in the shop, it looked like Golden Age Lois whispering in Superman's ear. Or, I assumed it was. Then I put the comic back on the shelf and went to buy what I was getting, and the owner asked why I didn't have a copy of IC as well, to which I responded, "Meh." I think he was actually a little shocked, but I don't know why. The art seemed a little muddier than Jiminez's usual, and I don't really buy into the "No Significant Character Development" style of Crisis-plotting. And meh.
 
 
Aertho
15:58 / 17.10.05
I think GA Supes wants to save Sue Dibny.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:32 / 17.10.05
I think it was also earth 2 Lois who whispered into E2 Supes. Haden't thought that the "her" would be Sue Dinby... assumed they were talking about Power Girl who now seems to be from earth 2 again and is a survivor of the crisis.
 
 
Aertho
17:44 / 17.10.05
Well yeah.

But why save Power Girl now? She's a tough cookie, and gettting tougher.

Sue's death is significant in the scheme off things. Others human have died in the superhuman conflict, but this one is in hardcover, and is the direct result of funny books not being funny anymore. Saving her means fixing what's wrong in the DCU.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
18:56 / 17.10.05
I think GA Supes wants to save Sue Dibny.

That hadn't occured to me, but that's a pretty interesting idea. And that might build towards a gut feeling I've had that this thing would end with Sue, Ted Kord, and Max Lord all walking around unsullied and unharmed.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
19:07 / 17.10.05
Henningjohnathan, while a lot of the points you make are valid, I think you have to ask yourself "Could the time I spent writing that have been better spent going for a nice walk or eating some cake?"

If only the editors who came up with the various Crises had asked themselves the same thing.
 
 
Triplets
19:20 / 17.10.05
Saving her means fixing what's wrong in the DCU.

It's always a rescue mission, isn't it? Same thing happening over in Planetary with Ambrose Chase. Eventually.

I do like (or hope) the idea that all this cape rape/I'm the goddamn Batman/Wonder Woman is teh evils!! crap is a deliberate visit to the dark places to come out lighter in the end. Probably one of you Morrigicians from the Temple have better words for it.
 
 
Aertho
19:40 / 17.10.05
Morrigicians

Me amo Trips.

Zip back a few pages. I predicted Infinite Crisis would be the final Modern Age crunch before a new universe takes over. I just rilly rilly like some of the stuff from this rendition of DC physics. Princess Diana of Themyscira and Tim Drake are probably the best products of the last 25 years, and I'd hate for them to be lost to the Nothing.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:03 / 17.10.05
Actually, I am a little more excited about the post-post-infinite (or is it "endless") crisis DCU. The moral delimmas that the heroes face are potentially very dramatic, but my general problem with crossovers is that they seem so driven by editorial mandates and plotted by committee that the stories are as exciting as reading about a corporate restructure and the characters are as charismatic as a targeted marketing campaign. If the manifold Crises series are any indication, then the future of the DCU is going to be no more exciting than the titles were prior to IDC.

Even if you look at the CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS in 1985 - it's hardly a real influence on the DCU today in the same way that non-Crisis books from that period, like WATCHMEN, DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and SWAMP THING, still imspire todays best creative talents and teams.

The "problem" with DC really has nothing to do with continuity or characters, but with the restrictions editorial and corporate concerns placed on the creative teams and left writers and artists unable or unwilling to commit their best work to these titles.

However, with Villains United (a series that could have worked, and been improved, without the rest of Crisis) and with titles that were already improving prior to crisis (like OUTSIDERS and TEEN TITANS), we really could be reading the new and improved DC universe now instead of waiting for Crisis to end and the "One Year Later" follow up in the rest of the continuity.
 
 
matsya
21:15 / 17.10.05
I reckon it's Julie Schwartz whispering in GA Superman's ear. Which means Eliot S! Maggin isn't far away, either.

Oh, glory days.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:27 / 18.10.05
Just to clarify: when I said good points I meant it, but I also think it's a good idea (for both one's own sanity and the comics forum) not to devote so much time, space and energy to unpacking what's wrong with the concept behind the whole Identity Crisis of Conscience arc. Look, Brad Meltzer's Identity Crisis ends with the heroes locking the woman who knows all their secrets in Arkham Asylum. Geoff Johns is the man who came up with deep and meaningful reasons for Hal Jordan's grey hair AND the cleavage-revealing hole in Power Girl's costume. These are not smart comics or smart people. Treat it all as a theatre of the absurd, and don't spend money on any of it, and don't worry about it either - that's my advice.
 
  

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