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Underground > Comic Books >

Infinite Crisis

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Yotsuba & Benjamin!

16:36 / 09.11.05

Dude, I've tried reading it like ten times! But, no, I'm sure as a whole it's quite splendid. I've just got to dig in, power through.

It bored me, but I suppose that doesn't make it boring.

I actually do intend to read it. It's in my bag right now. It's just every time I try, something a bit more exciting and riveting comes out and I read that a few dozen times instead.

17:10 / 09.11.05

Dan DiDio from a Newsarma interview on IC today:

>> Q: Judging from the first few pages of Infinite Crisis #1 – is it a safe assumption that Superman, Lois, Superboy and Alexander have been watching the DCU for 20 years?

>> Dan DiDio: Not only have they been watching and waiting but they may have been unknowingly affecting change in the DCU throughout the years.

Keith, like a scientist

17:14 / 09.11.05

Couldn't agree more.

I bought and read it a couple years ago, and then promptly donated it to the library.

17:18 / 09.11.05

oh, I like the first CRISIS...I think it really works. Even though the whole 'just when you think the villain is dead and has seemingly died a few times, but comes back ONE MORE TIME to try to get our heroes' thing was cliche even in the mid-80s, there's something about the final time the Anti-Monitor comes back and freaks out on the heroes that I still find suspenseful and a bit scary, even.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

17:21 / 09.11.05

From a plot/story standpoint, I think it's quite good, but the writing itself is just too archaic for me to get through. The Mary Tyler Moore Madcap Firestorm & That Frozen Lady thing for starters. I think comic book writing has evolved a certain amount and that sort of narration and dialogue just hasn't stood the test of time, for me at least.

17:22 / 09.11.05

Also, I feel Crisis really epitomizes the tone and style of quality 80s DC comics (quality being subjective of course from person to person).

17:28 / 09.11.05

I thought the original Crisis was great, but I wouldn't recommend to anyone who wasn't reading a lot of DC comics back then. Because it's not a great stand-alone story. If you don't already care about those people going in, then it's like hearing cataclysmic yet convoluted gossip about some stranger's family.

17:53 / 09.11.05

very true.

More DiDio on IC from Newsarama:

Q: Dear God, please tell me there's some kind of big push coming for Aquaman? He has had virtually no play since all of this "Crisis" stuff began

DD: Big plans for Aquaman in the One Year Later.

Aquaman fans rejoice! (I'm not really one of them, but I think it would be interesting if DC started to do more with ol' Arthur)

18:28 / 09.11.05

I still think a fantasy-based crusade myth-comic with Arthur would be tops. He may be King of the Ocean, but maybe it's like saying Bush is President of the Planet. Enough exile, enough Sub Diego, enough angst.

They should give the book to Alan Davis.

Matthew Fluxington

19:10 / 09.11.05

The only way to do a successful, interesting Aquaman comic would be to capitalize on the fact that 99.999% of all humanity thinks of Aquaman as being a total joke, and make his series totally bizarre and deadpan, sorta like Sealab 2021.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

19:14 / 09.11.05

"Black Manta, you Mailbox Head!"

19:44 / 09.11.05

Flux wins.

19:47 / 09.11.05

I dunno, I feel like they haven't really explored the whole "Arthur going on underwater adventures to really cool underwater places, exploring lost civilizatons underwater" thing. Dan Jurgens' short run on the book was actually pretty decent, right before the book was cancelled and Aquaman "died" during Our Worlds At War.

20:11 / 09.11.05

Yeah, but you and I are thinking comics-for-kids. Aquaman wouldn't necessarily be interesting, because it wouldn't be aimed at us. But a pissed off crusading Aquaman fighting the rogue states of Atlantis, reclaiming the wastes of the Pacific Gyres, battling the cults of Eurybia, and negotiating secret truces with the mystrerious surface world would be FUN, if written younger and somewhat "Silver".

He'd be a magickal Jed Bartlett stuck in CAPS LOCK. But most comic writers aren't interested in anything that's not street-level.

Otherwise, a superironic Aqua Teen Hunger Force comic that feels half South Park and half Doom Patrol would be the only way to make the uncool cool again.

rabideyemovement

20:16 / 09.11.05

Aquaman will never be considered anything close to cool until he leads an attack against the foul surface dwellers.

Mister Six, whom all the girls

20:29 / 09.11.05

(one eye closed)
...I'm waiting to see Aquaman killed off and the outcry about how cool and poorly used he was.

Veitch actually invented a very compelling new mythological take on Arthur Curry including the water hand which was more than a gimmick. Arthur could not use the hand to hurt anyone... ever. It was a message that he had to change his ways.

'Course no one gives two shits about it at DC nowadays. My guess is that Veitch didn't get along with DC Editorial and they'd both like to pretend his run never happened.

The new issues by John Arcudi and Pat Gleason have been solid super-hero comics. I'm sure people reading the Peter David series back in the day said the same thing, though.

Aquaman is a character a lot like Green Lantern or Hawkman. Even when a creative team labors over him and gives him a new lease on life most readers don't care.

(closes both eyes)

ONLY NICE THINGS

01:13 / 10.11.05

I dunno, I feel like they haven't really explored the whole "Arthur going on underwater adventures to really cool underwater places, exploring lost civilizatons underwater" thing

So, hang on... would this be going on underwater?

Mister Six, whom all the girls

01:14 / 10.11.05

(opens both eyes)
Holy crap that was good.

You guys (those aside from the two or so posters here who have been enjoying recent DC Comics) will soon be very happy... ofcourse we have 5 issues to go so anything can happen.

I'm not a close reader but the line 'Superman bled to get us here.' read a lot like a Christ-thing. In a good way, I'm just... I can't get over how much work went into this series. It feels very... intense in a way comics haven't been since... well, since 1984, I guess.

It's really stunning.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

01:17 / 10.11.05

Here, you'd better wear this diving helmet. Aquaman Deep Sea Reality TV is the next big thing. Explore the depths of Atlantis's forgotten big sister city with the self-appointed King of the Seven Seas. You get to be the sidekick.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

02:42 / 10.11.05

You guys (those aside from the two or so posters here who have been enjoying recent DC Comics) will soon be very happy... ofcourse we have 5 issues to go so anything can happen.

I was going to say. I'm pretty sure that while Kal-L's motivation might be the same as many disgruntled DC Fans, ultimately there's no way this Earth is going to be replaced with the old one. Well, I won't say there's no way, but I'd be pretty stunned if that's how things ended up. I'd reccomend Gotham Central #37 for anyone interested on the ground level vibe of the DCU right now and why Kal-L is so fucking wrongheaded.

And yeah, intensity is the exact right word. As much as I've been so into the DCU lately, and as much as there have been plenty of supercharged moments, it really feels at this point that every small little Drama Tributary has successfully made its way into this giant Drama Ocean, all contributing a little bit. I never imagined that this (or rather, what's in store in #3 according to the blurb) was what three years of trauma was leading towards in terms of Batman, but it's so so right dramatically.

And all the stuff that's been explicitly building in terms of the Villains United just completely jumps the rails into crazy town off-camera. The heroes they killed last issue have been strung up on the Washington Monument? Wow. That is just so completely bonkers. But, you know, in the best and most vicious way.

So, yeah, I'm definitely predicting a failure on Kal-L's part but an awakening on the part of Batman, Superman, et al, in terms of why they do what they do. I'll be honest, if Crisis on Infinite Earths has that kind of character-based focus, perhaps I was wrong about it after all.

03:24 / 10.11.05

I'm mostly pissed because the E2 Superman, who's being hailed as this season's Greatest American Hero, has decided in his infinite wisdom that this universe isn't worth saving and is willing to destroy it all in order to bring a "better" world.

I'm still convinced that this is going to end with the Earth being split in two again, so that we can have a dark, kid-killing, ass-raping world for the gloom crowd and a Beetle-and-Booster funtime, shiney super world for the rest of us.

03:41 / 10.11.05

Has anyone else picked up on the fact that the plot elements of this whole Crisis thing hinge on shoddy, incomplete writing?

No, seriously - the two keys to the whole 'unravelling of the crisis' seem to be Power Girl and Wonder Girl, whose origin stories have been so inconsistent and dumb, mainly because of creative apathy and editorial incompetence. but now those flaws have become significant plot devices. Wacky.

And the thing that the Crisis is supposed to 'fix' is a tone of mood? People have been writing 'gritty' superheroes since the 80s, but it wasn't a stylistic choice on the part of the artists, it was an inherent quality of the post-crisis universe?

Sure, I like the metatextual element of it - using flaws in the logic to spur new stories on, but hmm. Just hmm.

Here's a crazy thought. Couldn't the writers just start writing less 'gritty' stories with less arserape without having to justify that change of tone with a multiple-issue crossover and sundry related miniseries?

"No, it wasn't a simple editorial choice to write less angry stories that changed the comics, it was Earth-2 Superman punching the universe until it got happier again."

Is any kind of excessive violence now going to be retconned? They didn't blow blue beetle's brains out- they squirted him with a sleeping-gas lapel-flower instead?

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

04:37 / 10.11.05

I really doubt Kal-L is going to succeed, nor do I believe the last two decades of continuity will be erased. It seems to be a much more organic "reboot" in comparison to the original Crisis, with heroes reconsidering their own actions, as opposed to those actions being retconned out of existence.

05:19 / 10.11.05

>> So, hang on... would this be going on underwater?

*laughs at self*

On the topic of Aquaman (not having read IC #2 yet but hungrily devouring the spoilers herein), I just saw that after his guest appearance on Smallville recently, producers are considering an Aquaman spinoff show. No, seriously. It was in today's New York Post. Not that the Post is the reliable source for hot entertainment news, but still...)

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

05:35 / 10.11.05

It's just an excuse to have some hot young thing running around in a swimsuit with beads of water all over him. They'll throw in Mera and Tempest and we'll end up with piles of lamentable slash fiction and Aquaman will be one of the top hot celebrities under 25 or something.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:17 / 10.11.05

Somebody waaaaave me.

Sorry. Shutting up now.

08:10 / 10.11.05

ha ha.

As for the earths thing - remember the world (our world?) that JLA dumped those heroes on in JLA Classified? Maybe that'll come back up.

What if they get to the end, and everyone has to decide which world they want, the old school silver age fun world, or grim and gritty new world (batman fighting them all calling them mad).

Or something.

I haven't read it yet so maybe I'll shut up now.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

10:43 / 10.11.05

This is all starting to sound like the ultimate reboot, one that rewrites the original Crisis out of existence. That would be fun.

10:46 / 10.11.05

"As for the earths thing - remember the world (our world?) that JLA dumped those heroes on in JLA Classified? Maybe that'll come back up."

That world "grew up" to become Ne-bu-loh, presently being seen in Seven Soldiers.

11:00 / 10.11.05

I'm mostly pissed because the E2 Superman, who's being hailed as this season's Greatest American Hero, has decided in his infinite wisdom that this universe isn't worth saving and is willing to destroy it all in order to bring a "better" world.

That's not hero thinking. That's defeatist.

Not to mention genocidal (I'm not sure that genocide adequately describes destroying* a universe, and all sentient life therein). Surely for E2 Supes to even consider this puts him on a par with any of the grim and gritty E1 heroes. The creative team seem to be undermining their own logic.

Those of you that've read this, what info do we have that destroying the E1 universe is E2 Supes intention? I'd humbly suggest we're being misled about where this is all heading, because, frankly, as it stands, it really doesn't make too much sense.

*No one gets to weasel out of this with the word "replace"

Mister Six, whom all the girls

11:55 / 10.11.05

matsaya: "Has anyone else picked up on the fact that the plot elements of this whole Crisis thing hinge on shoddy, incomplete writing?"

I'm just going to use your statement to spinoff a few things if that's cool.

Well... that's what the original Crisis did as well. In fact, it's kind of inherent in a reboot, isn't it? Not to forgive them for it, but since DC was unfamiliar with the concept, they ReEeeEEEeealy mis-stepped a few times with Donna Troy and Power Girl... and Hawkman... and Green Lantern... and Supergirl.

And giving the fans what they want is what all cross-overs are... in concept at least. I mean, I don't recall 'wanting' Millenium, do you?

Comics never do anything small.

They demand a cross-title-crossover with variant covers and hot artists, etc.

They demand we see Animal Man getting a brown bag lunch!

(I quite liked that touch)

And while, no, I don't think that the DCU will go back to the previous Earth it's a great concept, innit? And anyone hung up on the DCU getting darker only involving arse rape really needs to switch to decaf and look at issue 2 of Infinite Crisis.

The grittiness has been in the comics for years, keeping up with the times, reflecting what the comic readers wanted, etc. Now my feeling is that DC Editorial are forcing a change in the other direction and while I doubt it'll be a clean reboot, they are addressing how nuts their comics have been, but tying it together is a strength of their clarity rather than a weakness.

I'm carrying this a bit far, but it's just so stunning to me how they've planned this out, I mean JSA Classified #3, Firestorm #19 (don't ask, I think I was drunk), even the new issue of Teen Titans bleed right over into IC #2... that's clear thinking.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:03 / 10.11.05

Yes, making it so that readers need to be familiar not only with a half dozen current other titles or more, but also with a bunch of comics that happened over 20 years ago, whilst simultaneously making those comics unsuitable for children AND actively playing to the "variant covers so I can put them in my safe" crowd... That's some clear thinking! It's some people clearly thinking "how can we making comics even more of an inaccessible, moribund ghetto?"

Mister Six, whom all the girls

12:13 / 10.11.05

Actually, you're wrong on all counts. The mini summaries both the previous Crisis series and the monthlies tie together but not in a way that you need to be reading all of them to understand what's going on.

Do you even read them?

Mister Six, whom all the girls

12:26 / 10.11.05

Actually, I jumped too quickly there. I'm trying to do work before I run out the door and post at the same time, so my post was unusually snooty.

Aside from the points above, I think comics in general have waved the white flag to new readers and to kids as well. They're just not going to buy comics. And the variants are selling out, sotheir plan is working. It could be sinking ship mentality, you know? Try anything... ANYTHING... to get readers and do it a LOT.

If you think it's a ghetto reader wise, fair enough. I've been too thoroughly depressed by the numerous comic cons I've gone to recently to disagree with you. But as far as the comics themselves, I'm enjoying them.

If you dislike them so much, and this isn't a dig, be the better man and do something else with your time and money because I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

Sorry again for being bitchy.

12:49 / 10.11.05

Six - I agree with you pretty much completely on your last point. I'm fed up with readers (none that I meet in real life, mind - they're quite positive) just slagging off the books that they buy each week.

Fair enough, if you don't like it, don't buy it any more. Wait for a new creative team. Grow up even, and stop reading comics altogether (this is a hypothetical, btw, there's no fucking way I'd be giving up the funny books. Kill me first).

Petey - fair enough, I agree with your point about these crossovers 'making' people buy comics they usually wouldn't, but personally, IC runs through most of the books I read regularly anyway, and I love it. Sorry! It's a huge, mind-boggling story, and I got myself all excited about the future when I was trying to explain what's happening/could happen to my (very patient and cool) girlfriend last night.

All said and done, I read the books I like, ditch the ones I don't, and ATM, I'm really like IC, so I'll keep getting it. That said, I have decided that if this one is shit at the end, it's the last big event I'll ever buy. Been burned too many times by pointless mega-stories.

PS - anybody else notice the staggering way the The Kingdom (by Mark Waid from around 98/99) fits almost perfectly with IC so far? If I didn't know better, I'd swear we were dealing with Hyper-time here. And the Linear Men better turn up in IC somewhere, this is an event perfect for them (esp. the dude, Hunter?, that knows hyper-time).

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