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Burning down the Haus part 2 - Attack of the Clones

 
  

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Char Aina
11:32 / 14.07.06
trying to find something to criticize and pick at

what makes you think he is trying to find something, rather than just coming across it?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
11:34 / 14.07.06
toksik, that was not my point. Whether the initial response was fair or not (i think not), the need to continue the argument was there, which was the point of my post.
 
 
Char Aina
11:39 / 14.07.06
that doesnt answer my question.
i'll save you the trouble of looking;
do you think the 'kristan' suit was right in hir criticism of haus' approach, math?

by right i mean 100%, as the context that followed the question was meant to suggest.
also, if not 100%, then how right and in what way?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
11:42 / 14.07.06
Not even close to 100% right. Like 10% right if he didn't understand the context of the post, and 0% right if he did. Which is probably why he didn't reply, that or he's to busy.
 
 
Char Aina
11:49 / 14.07.06
sorry, it appears we are cross posting.
i didnt intend to suggest that i felt that was your point.

it was my question, and relates to that perception of the belligerent/rude/scathing nature of the haus suit that this thread is intended to examine.

if haus is chasing someone down over nothing, that is one thing.
if he is chasing someone down over something, it is another thing.

please note i am not making a value judgement on either of those things right now, merely trying to examine the pattern.


in my original theory, i was discussing the repsonses of other posters being conflated with haus.

with 'kristan' i think i would include the whole internet, and all the abusive sleazy potshots taken by other people on other message boards.
i can imagine barbelith is the last place 'kristan' would expect to read that kind of thing and that made it leap out.
perhaps ze was having an argument with someone ze wanted to rather than someone that was there, temporarily blinded by the incongruity of that kind of banter(or it's kin) being found here on the right on board of right onners(so they say).

the idea may need more developing, but then that is why i asked you (and anyone esle who cares to join in) for your thoughts.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
11:53 / 14.07.06
Do you all want me to turn up the volume on The Reverend of Love, Mr Al Green, so you can all hear him better? Come on people, testify!

(Sorry, my landlord's outside, and therefore stopping me from going out back and getting my kit off for the sun to inspect and scold.)

"Love and happiness. Make's you want to do right, makes you wanna do wrong..."
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:57 / 14.07.06
I sometimes think that Haus must secretly have been given a large grant by the Government specifically so that he can sit at his computer all day and night responding to people's thoughts about him (and, well, anything else really) at great and elegant length. It's probably a matter of national security, I reckon, but he can't tell us or he'd have to kill us.

And then I think, naah.

And then I think, actually ...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:01 / 14.07.06
rather than just trying to find something to criticize and pick at, which i feel like you do a lot

And again, we're back to examples. I mean, I could say that you focusing down on "people who play dungeons and dragons" was "picking at", for example. Ultimately, I think much of your position can be characterised by your statement:

I was hedging a little bit with my response because I have no clue how seriously to take Grandman, but I also thought it was a bit cheeky to criticize the grammar of a post that was written in haste on a break from fiction writing, and therefore had sentences with a lot of compound clauses, because it's my tendency not to use periods when I'm in a big hurry, like I am now.

That is, if I had more time I would be unassailable. That's fine, but if you don't then you aren't. Which is why the TMFM signal might be a useful thing to have available to signify that you are not able to bring sufficient resources to bear on an issue that you would otherwise like to discuss in greater depth.

Actually, this raises, tangentially, something that I was discussing with someone - the urge to respond. This ties in with an early post of flyboy's and sibyline's, although less so, and it's something I am also taking on board - that there's an urge to make things clear. For example, fat foolish finger's comments. I felt it was important to point out that these were baseless and clearly personal attacks. But, on reflection, that seems to be pretty clear to everyone who expresses an opinion. Likewise, I imagine, Kay's opinions on gangsta rap. Now, Mathlete's lengthy citation of Morrisongate, which a more tasteful forum would perhaps have quietly effaced to save the fellow's blushes, has reminded me that there are some very, very credulous people on Barbelith. Of course, in some cases it basically becomes a matter of spinning the wheel to see whether what you have explained at length has found any purchase at all, but I do worry that, left uncritiqued, Barbelith is no longer a place (possibly never was) where you can leave whhat you believe to be an utterly dunderheaded or dangerous view, be that about some external issue or about people on Barbelith, and be confident that it will be sensibly disregarded by an informed audience.

So, how do other people deal with this? Are there things that you consciously leave to rot, or hope somebody else will pick up, and are there things you simply cannot walk past?

(Incidentally, I'm trying to swim back to id entity's first post, because it deserves it.)
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
12:45 / 14.07.06
I think when you have to use grammar as the reason to find fault with an argument, then you probably don't have a good reason to argue.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:49 / 14.07.06
That's very nice, Mathlete, but that's talking about Alex's grandma. Perhaps if you read the thread?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
12:59 / 14.07.06
The you wasn't specifically aimed at you Haus - it doesn't make sense for me to say "You, and only you, Haus, lose arguments if you mock gammar." But when you read it as "you, as in everybody, Haus, me, Ganesh, Alicia Silverstone, the kid from "what's happening", Teddy Savalis, Tom Savini, the pope, a small olive farmer trying to make ends meet, a child soldier in Mosambique, Captain Caveman, Phil Ivey, when any of us, anyone uses grammar to pick holes in an argument, you lose."

You probably knew that anyway though, didn't you Haus?
 
 
Quantum
13:08 / 14.07.06
I think the sentence fragment you probably don't have a good reason to argue could be extended to cover a lot of situations.
Quick 'un- I forgot what TMFM stands for, Too Much Frequency Modulation?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:10 / 14.07.06
You haven't read that thread yet, have you Mathlete?

With regard to the ASS discussion, if you honestly didn't find that entertaining, I'd suggest that this 'search for peace' you claim to be on (how's that working out for you incidentally?) might be better rewarded elsewhere on the internet. Because God only knows, it's getting rather old here.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:11 / 14.07.06
Of course it could Quantum, but if I was reading that I could either view it as a statement, or if I want to argue, an attack!!!! It depends on what you're looking for in a conversation. And by you, I mean everyone, just to be clear.
 
 
Quantum
13:12 / 14.07.06
Oh and some levity I forgot, Haus- the Athena Cyberman was and is pure comedy gold and saved me from a bleak mood the first time I saw the sequence. I heart cybermechanic and anticipate his recurrence and UPGRADES! On the other hand, I still need to know who sent you those crates and I can't track the comedy spoor through all the threads it's scattered in until we get a sort suit's posts by date button. Was it Evil Scientist? I bet it was.
Sunshine, huzzah!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:14 / 14.07.06
Honestly, when it gets to the point when you have to pick holes in someone's grandma to win a fight...
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
13:17 / 14.07.06
haus, here's what i said:

isn't it interesting what gets labeled trivial and what doesn't, considering how many people snicker at the mere mention of dungeons and dragons?

in response to someone quite clearly portraying my concerns related to s+r as trivial. when questioned, i responded with:

i am in no way questioning g&g's status and have tried as much as possible to make my arguments without in any way disrespecting it. i was responding to a post that was trivializing my concerns, by simply saying that people value priorities differently, and asking people here to think about what those priorities are.

would i have said anything about d&d had someone not said something about my concerns being the stuff of cosmo? absolutely not. did i say that i myself scoff at people playing d&d? again, no.

and it's not just the grammar comment, haus. i think again, i find myself becoming entrenched in an argument with you where i feel like i'm being forced to make a more strident position for the sake of argument. i find you funny a lot of the time. but you consistently pick on people. or, if you're not even willing to accept that, you consistently give people the impression that you're picking on them. and because you post a lot and have been around for a lot longer, and as a result have a voice that's stronger than most people here, i don't think it would be such a huge stretch for you to try not to be such a bully.

and actually, i didn't mean my comparison of you to those academic bullies as a simile. i should have been more precise. as witty and entertaining as you are, at your worst, i think of you as their online bulletin board equivalent.

chances are, i'm going to go back to the little barbelith corners that i enjoy. i hate these meta-arguments. shame on whoever moved this thread from policy to convo!
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:19 / 14.07.06
With regard to the ASS discussion, if you honestly didn't find that entertaining, I'd suggest that this 'search for peace' you claim to be on (how's that working out for you incidentally?) might be better rewarded elsewhere on the internet. Because God only knows, it's getting rather old here.

I was gonna answer this with a quip, but in the interest of clarity, and demanding it, I say demanding it from people, I'll answer.

A) Where have I stated that I'm on a search for peace? My name is Mathlete: The Search for Peace as it is the fourth superman film and I am JWR the fourth. And the new Superman film is coming out today, so it's topical. I could have chosen Mathlete and Robin, or Mathlete the Revenge. Can't think of anymore. Maybe Mathlete: Citizen's on Patrol, no that was 3 ... Mission to Moscow was 6, right? I digress.

I am obviously not a Barbelith person, what with turning up in a thread to discuss the what the thread is about, ask what I believe to be pertenant questions, give answers to further questions and so on. Obviously from you're example AG, I should have tipped up with my hand up my arse and told someone to fuck off?

That's it, I'm leaving.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:22 / 14.07.06
sibyline, do you have any examples (not from this thread) of where "the distinctions [Haus] draws are often nitpicky and insubstantial compared to the larger point that the person he's responding to is making", or am I going to have to shoot myself in the fucking face in despair?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:24 / 14.07.06
Shoot yourself in the face. Empty threats are as useful as empty barrels.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
13:25 / 14.07.06
sorry, i too got confused and misremembered and thought haus was criticizing my grammar in that thread, when it was in fact alex! carry on...

p.s. as i'm arguing i'm realizing that i'm feeling less intimnidated by haus as i used to be, though i should still not get too involved in these sorts of time-sucking discussions.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:27 / 14.07.06
That's it, I'm leaving.

Cool.

The stopwatch is ticking ...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:28 / 14.07.06
That's it, I'm leaving

Five minutes.

Surely that's a record?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:32 / 14.07.06
I guess sarcasm doesn't register with the over 60's.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 14.07.06
p.s. as i'm arguing i'm realizing that i'm feeling less intimnidated by haus as i used to be

That's the spirit! You see, I tend to think of this process as:

1) Somebody says something
2) Somebody else disagrees
3) Nobody dies

Repeat that a couple of times, and it gets easier to realise that a disagreement is precisely that. As it happens, since you, sibyline, are not currently advancing spectacularly stupid ideologies, trolling or regularly demanding my attention, I don't imagine I'll be likely to bully you or give you the impression of bullying you. To be honest, we've been missing a bitchiekittie for a while - could be a perfect fit.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
13:33 / 14.07.06
There is not, I think, such a discussion about accusations of being a Committee headed by Senator Joe McCarthy, because to my knowledge nobody has been quite self-dramatising enough to make them before, but you never know.
Heh. Y'know, I was genuinely confused as to whether you'd deliberately picked the name for precisely that reason; that perhaps you were referencing what appears to me to be the intended function of your ficsuit.
Saying "there is absolutely nothing racist about this" is not necessarily proof against people highlighting unexamined thinking about race in your statements.
Unexamined thinking? Haus, you were reading something into it which was never there! You read it as "oh, those naughty black people, bringing it on themselves"? That's not my problem, that's not my friggin' prejudices in action. That's you seeing it in your own light; seeing it because you expect to see it. That's why the witchhunt comparison, Haus: you expect to see prejudice, and lo! there you find it.

Well, sure. I didn't express myself too well. I didn't write as well as I could, and you, Haus, weren't the only one to read it that way. But you could've had the grace to leave off once I'd stated my intent.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:40 / 14.07.06
You read it as "oh, those naughty black people, bringing it on themselves"?

Why yes. Yes I did. And gosh, look:

I suspect it won't make an awful lot of difference to public perceptions so long as the airwaves are brimful of upbeat, cheerful depictions of black Americans. Shooting each other and fucking their "ho"s, that is. Why bother letting other people charge you with violent misogyny when you can proclaim it for yourself? With friends like these...

There's you saying that.

Look:

I am not for one second attributing blame to those artists; obviously the whole picture is very complicated, but I am saying that these pictures are a drop compared to the %self inflicted% ocean.

There you are again, saying that.

And I think that's a bit of a problem, even if you then tell us that you have absolutely no race issues at all (as alas pointed out "I am colour-blind" often means "I judge everything from the dominant viewpoint, which happens to be mine"). The whole thing about unexamined views is that they haven't been examined. As identity, I believe, has said recently, a year ago he would have bridled at being told he had racist views, because he had not realised how hard it was not to in a society that normalised racial discrimination in its everyday conduct and its received wisdoms

"You need to think more carefully about how your perception of race is informing your views" is not a death sentence, you know - it's a suggestion.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:44 / 14.07.06
I guess sarcasm doesn't register with the over 60's.

Well at my age, you tend to look for the positives in life, let's put it that way.

Incidentally, this - Obviously from you're example AG, I should have tipped up with my hand up my arse and told someone to fuck off? - elegant and well-turned phrase should read;

'Obviously from your AG ...

Just saying, is all.

Also, I'm somewhat unclear as to what your referring to.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
13:46 / 14.07.06
"You be good to me,

I'll be good to you,

We'll be together,

We'll see each other,

Walk away with victory!

Oh baby,

Love and happiness..."


(I'm gonna keep this up if I have to. Come on people, take a step back, and "Take me to the River"...)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:46 / 14.07.06
I'm really pissed off now that I've already shot my load with the "picking holes in someone's grandma" joke now.

Ah well. Impetuous, that's me.
 
 
Ticker
13:54 / 14.07.06
Is this thread being productive in some way (at this point) or just festering/ breeding wee nasty meta arguments?

Can we lance it before Haus and Godwin's Law converge into some imaginary yet epic jack booted ultra weenie conspiracy theory?

There are many fabulous and worthy threads languishing in obscurity while this one is building up enough mass to implode into a sucking vortex of stupid.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:56 / 14.07.06
Everyone saw - Alex's Grandmother lost the arguement, even though the rules of engagement are clearly posted on this page. A moral victory for moi. Ner ner ner ner ner!

And what I was refering too was;

...might be better rewarded elsewhere on the internet. Because God only knows, it's getting rather old here.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
13:56 / 14.07.06
To be honest, we've been missing a bitchiekittie for a while - could be a perfect fit.

she has much bigger boobies than me. *sigh*

but i would consider any comparison to her to be favorable.

oh no. i'm agreeing with you. but not about the trolling, stupid ideology, or attention-grabbing part. with that, rock pot paper stones scissors glass kettle black houses is all i can say.
 
 
Ticker
14:05 / 14.07.06
on second thought....

"HAUS! THOU ART THE DEE-VEAL! LO! FOR I HAVE SEEN YOUR VERY LIKENESS REVEALED IN SULFUROUS STENCH RISING FROM MY KIMCHEE! THY TONGUE DIPPED IN SILVER BURNISHED IN FEVERISH DELUSIONS MISLEADS THE WAYWARD MASSES OF INNOCENTS! I KNOW THEE DEE-VEAL HAVING WALKED BEFORE WITH TINY MUSTACHE AND DIABOLICAL AGENDA! I NAME THEE ULTIMATE EVIL! I NAME THEE NAZI SCUM-COATED HELL-BAG!"

..okay can we pack up and go now? Flame war brought to its inevitable end?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:08 / 14.07.06
If that, to you, Mathlete: The Search for Peace, translates as 'being told to fuck off,' then I suspect your search will be long and arduous.

If I'd intended to 'tell you to fuck off,' I think I'd just have said so, in so many words.
 
  

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