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Burning down the Haus part 2 - Attack of the Clones

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ONLY NICE THINGS

15:12 / 10.07.06

Hello darlings,

DM said, elsewhere:

I gotta tell, Haus, there's a lot people tired of your yapping too. Every time we get into one of this arguments, I get at least one PM of someone commenting on how out of line you are.

Now, the appeal to the silent majority is a pretty popular line of argument on t3h Internets, although usually the silent majority in question constitutes more than one person.

However, I'd like to test the waters here. For some reason, I seem to act as a kind of lightning rod for aggravation around here. I don't entirely understand why this is, but I accept it as an unfortunate necessity, and I can't help but feel in some small way slightly responsible.

So, let's start at the very beginning. Obviously, whether you wish to or not is a matter entirely for personal choice, but if you are one of those people, or somebody who has never PMed DM but are tired of my yapping nonetheless, I would like to hear from you. A simple adsum would do, but feel free to provide more detail if you'd like.

Come on, Barbelith. I'm oily.

15:20 / 10.07.06

Saying you don't entirely understand would mean that you understand in part. Why do you think it happens? How about a bit of self-critiquing?

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

15:24 / 10.07.06

I think pert of the problem people may have with you is that no matter the topic whenever you are "setting someone straight" your posts read as very condescending.

On one side it IS the internet, and sometimes a verbal smackdown is needed, however not everyone who makes a stupid statement warrants the same reaction.

Also, I think part of it is that people who might not realize you have been around forever don’t understand that you aren’t trying to be a total asshole, but you are (I would assume) tired of making the same points every 4-6 months.

15:30 / 10.07.06

Haus, speaking from the hear, I'd say that you're right most of the time. Your points are well thought out, based on extensive knowledge of the issue in point and must be taken into very careful consideration.

Your problem is the tone. You'r post tend to come out too agressive, too patronizing, and too sarcastic. In shorty, snarky.

And that leads to all those heated arguments where people (me inlcuded, obivously) grow defensive and end up not paying attention to the good, correct thing you say.

And you do seem to resort to personal attacks when you don't like some one's posts, too, which make you seem like a bully.

Despite our too frequent arguments, I do value your opinion greatly, but that gets lost in the heat of the moment, that gets lost in the irritaion for being called a "dung-covered village idiot who no one listen to anymore" (parphrasing). It's just not productive. And is that really the way you want tog et your message across?

Peace and love, dude

15:32 / 10.07.06

And Elijah got a good point there: I apreciate how irritating it must be to make the same point over and over. I do.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:34 / 10.07.06

I find the idea that there are people PMing Dead Megatron to say how out of line Haus is - well - absolutely bloody terrifying. Who are these people? Is one of them Bruno?

15:37 / 10.07.06

No, it's not, but I wouldn't say if it were.

Perhaps we should specify this as a low-snark thread before it's too late.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:40 / 10.07.06

Let's not.

DM, if you "apreciate how irritating it must be to make the same point over and over", why do you stubbornly persist in a form of posting that makes it necessary? Such as seeming to almost take pride in how long it took you to read a short piece of writing about which you were voicing an opinion?

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:41 / 10.07.06

Don't suppose there's any chance of "I feel" statements, is there?

Tom Paine's Bones

15:43 / 10.07.06

I feel that if people aren't prepared to post their opinions on the board I don't consider what they say in PMs to be relevant.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:46 / 10.07.06

Well - they are relevant insofar as they allow people to feel that they are not alone - that they are operating as part of what DM calls a "clique" elsewhere, and therefore that their behaviour is being approved of. If that's behaviour that is actively detrimental to the project of Barbelith (loosely, to provide an environment where discussion can operate with a markedly different churn/quality ratio from the rest of the Internet - what alas describes as the "slow food" Internet), then that's going to cause problems.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:46 / 10.07.06

We've had this argument before - back when it was Nick claiming that lots of people had PMed him saying how bullied they felt. I think the idea was that they couldn't post this opinion on the board because they'd be BULLIED EVEN MORE! Still, DM and chums have one up on Nick and pals, because they at least are willing to name Haus rather than just anonymously complain about anonymous bullies.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

15:47 / 10.07.06

Here's a guess: you have a natural gift for analysis, and use that to find and probe the weakest points in arguments that present positions contrary to yours.

But on the Internet, one can't always discern between the cocked eyebrow of genuine curiosity and desire for meaningful debate... and the nasty leer of "aha, I have discovered your weak point and will now proceed to eviscerate you and laugh."

I get in debates as part of a growth thing, where I tend to be wrong and be right and express myself badly and say goofy crap. Being confronted with somebody who seems very self-assured and seems to know exactly how to spear the very thing you really aren't sure about yourself can make you feel vulnerable, which makes you in turn feel kind of angry and resentful.

Especially when one is a Barbenewbie.

15:47 / 10.07.06

because sometimes I feel my opinion is right, despite not being in accordance with you.

And I didn't "take pride" on anything, I just admited I didn't read it when you asked me if I did after I made a comment on the fragment you posted, and things went down hill from there.

I admit my snark towards the "demanding" of me reading it is mostly to blame. For that much, I'm willing to apologise.

15:49 / 10.07.06

And I didn't "take pride" on anything, I just admited I didn't read it when you asked me if I did after I made a comment on the fragment you posted, and things went down hill from there.

You didn't "just" anything - you kept on posting your opinion on the piece, despite *still* not having read the thing.

rising and revolving

15:50 / 10.07.06

I don't entirely understand why this is, but I accept it as an unfortunate necessity, and I can't help but feel in some small way slightly responsible.

Sure. I think you are. It's like they say about girlfriends, you know? If you keep going out with women who cheat on you and burn your mattress, it's possibly time to start looking at yourself rather than blaming all the women.

What frustrates me, personally (and I've not PM'd DM about this, nor would I - I have PM'd Haus about it in the past) is that you set these things up on a purely confrontational basis. It's in your hands, as the generally more skilled debator, to guide the discussion.

In NLP terms, the meaning of your communication is the response you receive. You keep recieving the same response (anger, frustration, thats-not-what-I-meant) so I assume that's what you're looking for.

I find it exhausting and destructive when threads go that way - but there aren't any rules against it. As I say, I assume you enjoy those threads, as you continue to incite them in the same fashion (at least, the general pattern of your interactions with newbies you object to has been consistant).

*shrug*

If you'd like to change the methods of your interactions, I'd love to see that. But I don't think there's any obligation on your behalf. Unless, of course, you're as tired of it as I am.

15:50 / 10.07.06

loosely, to provide an environment where discussion can operate with a markedly different churn/quality ration from the rest of the Internet - what alas describes as the "slow food" Internet

And that's when the snark interferes, because it makes Barbelith seem like the "fast food" Internet, like people are trying to win an argument by yelling louder than others. It's, let's say, and "anti-barbelithian thing to do"... Truthfully, it's the only issue I have you you at all, Haus.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:53 / 10.07.06

In NLP terms, the meaning of your communication is the response you receive.

Yes, but in any other terms, this is bollocks, as it fails to allow for the possibility that the person responding should take any responsibility for their response, does it not?

15:56 / 10.07.06

You didn't "just" anything - you kept on posting your opinion on the piece, despite *still* not having read the thing.

I said I just admited... and then "things went down hill from htere". The part you refer too is part of the slippery slope we fell upon.

And it was not an opinion on the article, it was an opinion on a comment made in the article that appeared in Flyboy post, there's a difference.

Anyway, people, it's Monday, and I find myself with a load of work to do, so I'll be staying away a while. Hope we can work our differences out and build a better Barbelith

peace

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:56 / 10.07.06

If you keep going out with women who cheat on you and burn your mattress

It's how they put it out that I really object to...

Regrettable Juvenilia

16:03 / 10.07.06

The part you refer too is part of the slippery slope we fell upon.

"We"?

And it was not an opinion on the article, it was an opinion on a comment made in the article that appeared in Flyboy post, there's a difference.

A post in which I said "I would urge absolutely everyone... to read that entire article". Incidentally, your opinion was "what tha article is saying is, if gangsta rap is misogynistic, it's the white burgoise's fault?", as anyone can see, so it WAS in fact an opinion on the article.

Does anyone else feel that, given who he often gets into these arguments with and the way they post, Haus is actually quite restrained and patient and reasonable?

16:09 / 10.07.06

Sorry, but that was a question, not an opinion.

And Flyboy, please, stop trying to pick another fight here, That's not the purpose of this thread.

And yes, it's "we"...

rising and revolving

16:11 / 10.07.06

Sure flyboy.

It does set the frame of mind that maybe one could avoid the long and epic fights by changing your own behaviour, rather than expecting the behaviour of the newbs to change.

It even offers the opportunity to change the mind of said newbs by engaging in a different manner.

Which is why it's useful, sometimes. I think in the context of the question Haus asked at the start of the thread, it's useful.

Or do you desire to simply run over the same fight, time and time again with an ongoing succession of newbies in whom you provoke the same reaction?

As I say, if you do, that's your perogative. Me, I find it boring.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:11 / 10.07.06

And yes, it's "we"...

Yes, that's what they use to put out the blazing mattress.

16:13 / 10.07.06

And yeah, if you wanted people to read the entire article, what was the purpose of highlighting that particular part by removing it from its context as you did?

This is not sarcasm, what was the purpose, really? Did you find that part particularly important for the debate?

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

16:14 / 10.07.06

Yes, but if you're frustrated and feel like everyone is against you, "restrained and polite and reasonable" can come across as just plain ol' smug.

I used to do it with my sister all the time when we were kids. She'd get upset about something but wouldn't articulate her anger very well and I'd be very restrained and polite and reasonable, and that would really get her in a lather.

I'm not saying that's what Haus is doing intentionally, but the Internet is funny that way.

16:16 / 10.07.06

Thing is, Fly, that's not an excuse. If you check here, that's an argument waiting to happen. It annoys me that Haus saw fit to continue the rot there instead of posting something forcing people to post on the subject in an intelligent manner - especially considering what else happened in that thread originally. Akira seems to be brushing it off, but if he'd decided to go into a rant about it your last post would suggest that you'd think, well, it's Akira - fair dos.

This topic, as has been mentioned, has been done before, but I don't see much evidence that anything was ever learned from it. Last time I remember getting involved in it to any great degree was here and I stand by most of the points I made there.

DM> It's not "we". You were the one who decided to keep plugging away about something you were willfully ignorant of. You were the one in the wrong there. You were the one who should have read the bloody article before deciding to submit yet another entirely pointless post about it. In that case, you were at fault and you were the one desperately trying to turn the thread into a personal bitch-fest. I'm about a country mile away from thinking that the way Haus interacts with some people on this board is to the board's benefit, but that in no way means that every time he calls somebody on their idiocy he's in the wrong.

16:19 / 10.07.06

I feel that You keep recieving the same response (anger, frustration, thats-not-what-I-meant) so I assume that's what you're looking for. that is not the case.

I feel that the most common response to Haus is to a) laugh (see the CyberAthenaMan for a prime example) b) think a bit harder about the issue, or c) strop out because he's making you look silly.
I tend toward a) & b), but I note the proponents of c) are far more vociferous. Almost as if they were, in fact, being silly and didn't like people to point it out.
We think Haus rules, even though we don't like NLP.

16:20 / 10.07.06

And he's not in the wrong indeed most of the times, I have to admit. But I'm repeating myself to difuse hostility...

Off to work, damn it. I'm late already as it is.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:25 / 10.07.06

DM: Just for reference, there is quite a tradition on Barbelith of abstracting pieces from a resource to highlight some key points. It is generally assumed that these passages will act as a guide to what the person who has excerpted them thinks are the key points of the source text. However, it is also generally assumed that anyone who wishes to comment on the source text will read not only those excerpts but also the source text, using the excerpts as a guide.

I'm sorry, DM, but in that case you were in the wrong. You were given a text and chose to talk about it without reading it. If somebody turned up in a books thread and started to slag off the book being discussed on the strength of having read the back cover blurb - as has happened - they would be criticised for pretty much exactly the same reasons, although in that case it might not have had the same overshadowings of race and sex.

People weren't asking you to read the article just to annoy you, you know. They were asking you to read the article because if you carried on talking about it without having read it it actively reduced the quality of the conversation everyone else was having. Same reason people ask you to read threads before posting to them.

Now, can we get back ontopic?

Oh, Randy - yeah, you're right about the Revolution Controller. I was flippant, and expected to be able to get away with it because my observation of akira gave me reason to believe that he could not sustain any length of threadrot. I was intending to go back and steer the conversation back, but have been a bit busy. My bad.

16:28 / 10.07.06

FlyboyDoes anyone else feel that, given who he often gets into these arguments with and the way they post, Haus is actually quite restrained and patient and reasonable?

Yeah. Not always, but more frequently than he's given credit for. To be specifc for a second, in the latest thread Convo, I think Dead Megatron has behaved appallingly throughout, and I can't blame Haus or anyone else for anything they've said which is critical of him.

Rising & Revolting: Or do you desire to simply run over the same fight, time and time again with an ongoing succession of newbies in whom you provoke the same reaction?

This goes back to the question of whether it's okay or better to attack a point of view that you find offensive/stupid/whatever, to offer up a strident challenge, or whether it's best to try and communicate with someone across whatever chasm - ideology, prejudice, ignorance etc.

I think a lot depends on the attitude of the poster and any decisions they've already made about the question. I personally am really divided on this - I lean towards the latter, but I wonder to what degree it's possible, particulary regarding Internet communication as it misses so many nuances, and one ends up sharing space with so many people of erm, "questionable reasoning power".

16:37 / 10.07.06

I'm concerned with the distinction between newbie and old boy, I think it's rubbish. I can clearly remember wading into the headshop my first day here and encountering Haus, thinking he seemed erudite and arrogant then quickly realising that it was actually erudite confidence (and perhaps a dash of being very comfortable in the space- Haus?).

Why is it that some people immediately clash with the Hauster and some people don't have any trouble getting on with him? New and old posters?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

17:24 / 10.07.06

To throw this out, if there is anyone that feels they want to contribute to this thread but don't want to stick their heads above the metaphorical parapet they can always PM me and I'll post their thoughts under my name. Even though I'm probably perceived as being in Haus' intimate circle I won't let on who said what and will delete the PMs as soon as I've posted them in this thread.

18:27 / 10.07.06

I think I might be one of the people who thinks Haus can sometimes be judgemental and harsh. But so what? That's life isn't it? There are also lots of occasions where Haus is kind to people but these get overlooked, because it doesn't fit with the label of Haus as being someone who judges unfairly.

I imagine the problem people have with Haus is that they think everyone should be nice to them, even if they behave in an idiotic fashion, and Haus does not do what they think he should. I think people also do not like to be judged by someone who may appear to be their intellectual superior, and they especially do not like that person to be correct in their assessment.

Patience and kindness are not given rights on a messageboard, but lots of people seem to think that's what they should get in response to their posts, even when they post silly things. Me? I think DM should have read the article, but I may say that to him in a different way. Or, more likely, leave it to people like Haus.

Again, I personally don't think there is a need to point out people's grammatical failings, but perhaps that is because I might not spot them and I frequently make them?

We all have our different ways of doing things. Haus's are different to mine, and ours are different to someone elses. I think the point is, just because 'you' may not choose to do something in a certain way, doesn't mean everyone else has to follow that decision.

Why must we all behave the same way? The place would be very boring indeed.

18:42 / 10.07.06

I should just point out I did not PM Dead Megatron and this is merely my twopenneth.

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