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Burning down the Haus part 2 - Attack of the Clones

 
  

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Tom Paine's Bones
20:51 / 12.07.06
If you don’t accept that insulting someone and refusing to apologise is dumping, then… there isn’t a lot I can say to you.

Considering that DM has already held his hands up to being at least partly on a windup before that happened (and personally I have more respect for you for coming clean rather than less DM) isn't attempting to paint him as some kind of passive victim in this somewhat overstating your point?

And can you say at what point you believe requests to read the article that was being commented on became "hectoring"?
 
 
gridley
20:57 / 12.07.06
Triplets and Gridley, when you're enjoying people, is hot stinking breath and hard tonguing involved?

I hope so.


*stares at framed photograph of Haus and sighs*

If only...
 
 
Char Aina
20:57 / 12.07.06
to answer your question, haus, i dont know if it is enough.
i dont particularly care that you are describing people as clones, but ne can see how some might.

i think you should direct your apology to those who mind a bit more, as i honestly have no idea if it makes it all better or not.



nice typo, by the way.
even havent managed a three key straddle before.
well, not that i remember.
you must have been practising.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:04 / 12.07.06
I know this thread was a bit shit in the first place but hey, this thread is really turning into the shit. Is anyone else getting rabid entertainment value from this or is it just me? I mean, when I called Haus a narcissist I didn't think anyone would extend that to be a real and serious accusation. It was a JOKW!!!1!!!1!!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:05 / 12.07.06
Well, toksik, I'm not sure who I am describing as clones, nor therefore to whom I should be apologising. The only person to complain so far was FFF, who it is pretty clear has come to Barbelith through the Temple catflap and is apparently mainly here to complain and insult people. In my opinion.

even havent managed a three key straddle before.

Dude, you've suppressed the ego a little bit too successfully there. But thank you. I'm very short on sleep. It inspires me ot emos fo ym tsetearg krow.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:07 / 12.07.06
Anna - point. Maybe we should boot it to the Conversation and have a bit of fun. I think the general expectation of the Policy was higher last time this happened...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:10 / 12.07.06
It might be an idea. I don't really feel comfortable bringing the machete, camoflauge togs and AK-47 out in Policy. It just doesn't seem like the done thing. On the other hand I could go down the business suit with shoulder pads route and try to contain the manic laughter that keeps threatening to engulf the room. Your choice...
 
 
Char Aina
21:11 / 12.07.06
man, i typo'd in the post about typos, i typo'd in the post before it and i even had to correct a couple in the moderation request the typos necessitated.


and i have just corrected three in this post.
four if you count the one in that last statement.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
21:50 / 12.07.06
I'm also rather concerned about the way this thread is developing. Probably for completely different reasons to Nina and Haus. I think this is coloured by my knowing Haus IRL and my impression of Haus IRL and Haus-on-the-board have never been further apart than they are now. I'm sorry Haus but as this thread has gone further along the noise of having to argue over DM's failings in that thread has tended to disrupt what this thread was supposed to be for (I ask again, do you know who Kim & Mik is, because you gave them suspiciously short shrift for a thread which is supposed to be for people to describe their feelings about you, especially lurkers and newbies), to invite people to express their opinions about you and then attack in response. This is not what I thought this was going to be for from your first post, it does make it seem as though all you wanted was a chorus of "we love you Haus! Please touch our tits with your claw!" and I know you're not like that.

So yeah, it probably should be moved to Conversation, and locked too. But please dismiss me first, I'd feel so left out if you didn't.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:53 / 12.07.06
Well, toksik, I'm not sure who I am describing as clones

Me neither. But I really hope they were cloned from me (which would make me Jango Fett, yay!), instead of me being cloned from someone else...

Anna - point. Maybe we should boot it to the Conversation and have a bit of fun. I think the general expectation of the Policy was higher last time this happened...

I cesond that... oops! I second that. I feel anything constructive that could be said to Haus has been said already, and it's time for Haus to think about it all at hir own time. In the meantime, it would be, I feel, a good way to difuse tension to move this thread to Convo and make a few non-misogynistic, non-racist jokes in it. We can even rename the thread "Haus, J'acuse!", as proposed elsewhere. Hell, I'm even willing to join up and do a "Haus & DM: j'accuse" thread. Or "The amazing fight between a kangaroo and a fog" thread...
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
21:55 / 12.07.06
But seriously FFF, how do you feel about Haus?

Does anyone else feel that, given who he often gets into these arguments with and the way they post, Haus is actually quite restrained and patient and reasonable?

Rather often, really. Although I admit that occasionally I’ve thought to myself (of other posters) “Would you please stop baiting Haus? You know that’s what you’re doing, just stop.” I apologize that I can’t think of any examples off hand (and therefore lack links to exactly what I’m talking about), but I’ve noticed that, more often than not, the person usually doing the “baiting” is someone who has made plain their dislike for Haus, and seem to want a fight with him.

Generally, I think that whenever I this happens, it’s entirely the person who’s doing the “baiting”’s fault. They seem to be purposefully attacking Haus, without, you know, actually attacking Haus in the text. I really wish I had some links of this, because without them it feels like my point is kind of moot. If I come across something that demonstrates what I’m talking about, I’ll post it here.

I think Haus is rather intelligent and quite good at intellectual debate. I don’t believe he goes looking for a fight, but if he sees bullshit, he’s going to call it bullshit. And I think he shares these aspects with a great many number of Barbelith posters. He’s simply more visible than most due to his tenure here and his posting frequency.

And I think that over the years, certain people holding a grudge have built up this stereotype of “mean ol’ Haus” that gets pulled out by them whenever Haus says something they find some how “bad”. And then things get stupid.

But all this may need to be taken with a grain of salt, because the more I think about it, the more I realize I secretly long to be Haus. So I’m probably untrustworthy by anyone trying to “bring Haus down” or whatever their ultimate life goal is. Maybe I can become haus’ sidekick. Is Gridley’s “Hausboy” copyrighted?

(Anna, thanks to you, I shall now start using the word “scrummy” in conversation. I just wanted you to know.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:58 / 12.07.06
I thought the original 'Burning down the Haus' thread was actually in the Conversation... I have a feeling it was in the days when the 'Policy and Help' section was at the bottom of the board, and no one read it. But I might be wrong.

I like Haus as a poster, and think Barbelith would be a very different place without him. Many fallacious and/or illogical arguments would probably go unchallenged - or less well challenged; Haus has am amazing faculty of speedy thinking and posting which I, for one, do not possess. I would be very sorry to see him feel that he should post less - even the more studs-up posts, I feel, are usually aiming for the ball (or to be fair, sometimes the ball and man combined).

The only thing I dislike is Haus's tendency to tick people off for using being abusive (I will try to find an e.g. - I think this might have happened in the Shadowsax threads perhaps?). This has always seemed a bit rich to me, given that he is perfectly well capable of dishing it out when provoked. To be clear: I don't think there's any need to stop dishing it out, it just makes it seem rather pointless to tell others off for same.

I do wish newcomers and infrequent posters would not form an opinion on Haus and his interactions before they have actually interacted with him. I have never seen him be impolite in response to polite and considerate posts. I also wish they didn't feel intimidated and am not entirely sure why they do. Fear of being challenged?

As to those who don't think it's reasonable to ask people to read something before posting an opinion on it: don't then expect anyone to take your opinion seriously.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:01 / 12.07.06
Maybe I can become haus’ sidekick.

Isn't Flyboy Haus's sidekick already???? Or the other way around? Boxing Fogaroos, I'm confused...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:06 / 12.07.06
No, DM, any more than you are Mistofellees' sidekick because you both like Monty Python. Flyboy and I agree on many things, disagree on others, tend to get on well. It's not a sidekick thing.

it does make it seem as though all you wanted was a chorus of "we love you Haus! Please touch our tits with your claw!" and I know you're not like that.


I don't think I am - hence my question re: fff - I'm detecting very different approaches, and correspondingly different levels of value, in the comments made so far. If that difference is not apparent to others, then that may be a problem with me. So, you know, whatever.

And no, I don't know Kim & Mik, at least to my knowledge. I do, however, know the arguments ze was advancing quite well, and perhaps it was saddening to see them repeated so note-perfectly before even hir 20 post mark.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:12 / 12.07.06
No DM, they just agree quite a lot. This may seem remarkable, that two people can have separate opinions and find they often coincide and if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it but it does happen.
 
 
foolish fat finger
22:12 / 12.07.06
dude, i know it's a lit to ask, yeah, but could you maybe read the thread you are talking about? perhaps even just the first post? how about the first two sentences?
one of them is only two words long, if that helps.


toksik, yeah, I read about the first half a page… I would go back and re-read it, but that’s gonna be difficult right now. I don’t quite see what point you are making. Are you saying the interview is a self-parody? It didn’t read that way to me, apart the odd comment, but then I am not really in tune with H’s sense of humour. As an aside tho, exactly how many threads has H started about H? perhaps the forum should be renamed haus-elith?

Lamentations of Jeremiah- Considering that DM has already held his hands up to being at least partly on a windup before that happened (and personally I have more respect for you for coming clean rather than less DM) isn't attempting to paint him as some kind of passive victim in this somewhat overstating your point?

My point here was that H was responding to my statement that he was dumping by saying (I paraphrase) ‘the idea about dumping gets trotted out again’. I wanted to make clear that dumping is not an ‘idea’, it is an accepted concept in therapy, it’s in the dictionary etc. I felt that H was being very casually dismissive of what I considered to be an important point; that he sees fit to insult people and not have to apologise. I choose to call that dumping, and I think it is an undignified way to behave.

Incidently, Megatron has apologised. He copped to it. I respect him for that. If H was occasionally able to say ‘look sorry, I was a bit of an arse back there’ (or somesuch) I would probably not feel that I was unable to form a relationship with him. A person who never wants to admit they are wrong, or that they said something stupid back there, or that they are sorry if they inadvertently offended you, well, I just can’t relate to that. I don’t think that H is a troll, but for me he is as 2D as one, because he can’t seem to cop to anything.

Speaking of which-
Anna- Hang on just a jiminy moment? You honestly think that telling a person, who is criticising something that they haven't even read to read

I honestly thought that megatron was commenting on the pasted quote in that thread, not the article. In the light of his apology, it would appear I was totally wrong. *eats humble pie*

And furthermore-

It has been pointed out to me that my ‘ignore’ statement might come across as petulant. Perhaps so. I am genuinely frustrated by my attempts and failure to form a dialogue with H that I find satisfactory or constructive. And I expect some of that frustration leaked out in my post. I have really tried to find a solution that I am happy with. I don’t know if ignoring someone is a good solution, it’s not ideal. I mean, I love H, I just can’t seem to connect with him, y’know? And that to me has been very frustrating. So the only other option seems to be to disconnect. Not sure what else to say. I mean, I’ll sleep on it.

I suppose by stating I would ignore H, I was
a) trying to be clear on what I was doing and why
b) throwing up my hands in a gesture of complete despair at not being able to form a satisfactory dialogue with him.

I have tried to be friends, or at least friendly with H, but I never got the feeling he liked me or wished to be friendly with me.

well, to quote Ian Curtis, “who is right and who can tell, and who gives a damn right now?”

ok, missed the last few posts while typing. currently havin a beer, back tommorrow, same time, same boogie...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:20 / 12.07.06
Disconnecting and criticising someone because you don't think they want to be friends with you are not the same thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:21 / 12.07.06
I wanted to make clear that dumping is not an ‘idea’, it is an accepted concept in therapy

I refer the learned readers to Freud's "Using terms from therapy in attacks on people on message boards, and its role in Viennese society. In my opinion."

I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't but this is comedy gold.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:23 / 12.07.06
who it is pretty clear has come to Barbelith through the Temple catflap

How? Why? Meaning in through the back door? Not properly through the front door? Ohhh, I do hate it when people appear to be relegating the Temple to 'not proper' Barbelith.

Take it back, take it back I implore you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:23 / 12.07.06
FFF, the barbeinterviews were a sort of fun project that we did awhile back. People volunteered to be interviewed, someone else collected questions anonymously by PM, then we answered the questions. Nobody 'interviwed themselves.'

It was a thing.
 
 
foolish fat finger
22:24 / 12.07.06
Anna, I'm not criticsing him because he doesn't want to be friends. that is up to him. I am giving him feedback because he asked for it. my 'friends' issue is entirely seperate, and personal to me.

TYPO! told you I was havin a beer...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:29 / 12.07.06
Ohhh, I do hate it when people appear to be relegating the Temple to 'not proper' Barbelith.

That was bad of me, Olula, and I am sorry. It's certainly not intended to disparage the Temple as a whole, in which I am a willing and eager participant, and where many very interesting people and discussions can be found: it's just that there is a history of people coming for the magick, and then moving to other parts of the board and ... well, being a bit specialist. If you see what I mean.
 
 
■
22:30 / 12.07.06
These threads keep exploding while I'm not looking. I thought I ought to respond to this, though:

As far as I can see, you never apologise

He does, but you have to try REALLY hard and be utterly sure he's wrong. I managed it once. I got a certificate.

OK, I was so chuffed I made one. Is it a criiiime?
 
 
foolish fat finger
22:34 / 12.07.06
Mordant, thanks for your explanation. as I wasn't here at the time, I feel it is understandable that I didn't 'get' this.
 
 
Quantum
22:35 / 12.07.06
A person who never wants to admit they are wrong, or that they said something stupid back there, or that they are sorry if they inadvertently offended you, well, I just can’t relate to that. I don’t think that H is a troll, but for me he is as 2D as one, because he can’t seem to cop to anything.

Well, I feel, FFF, that your perception of the Haus suit is inaccurate. I have seen him apologise many times (as you say, even in this very thread) and often admit to being in the wrong, posting hastily, being in a bad temper etc.
I am trying to restrain my urge to be extremely sarcastic and critical because I feel you are taking this quite seriously so I am trying to as well.
 
 
Char Aina
22:38 / 12.07.06
toksik, yeah, I read about the first half a page… I would go back and re-read it, but that’s gonna be difficult right now. I don’t quite see what point you are making.

well, the bit where, in the first paragraph, haus explicitly states that Mr. Expressionless has sent [..] over an absolutely bulbous sack of questions, which he then says he shall attempt to answer with completeness and courtesy.

please tell me you get it now.
especially seeing as mordant just said it plain as day a post or two up from this one.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:39 / 12.07.06
A person who never wants to admit they are wrong, or that they said something stupid back there,

***

as I wasn't here at the time, I feel it is understandable that I didn't 'get' this.

Gold.
 
 
Quantum
22:42 / 12.07.06
Finger, I would add that you have a very strong opinion for someone who hasn't been here for very long and are very quick to whip out the judgemental tone, without actually reading the threads you're using to base your opinion on.
 
 
foolish fat finger
22:46 / 12.07.06
well thanks Quantum- I appreciate that. I like you, and a snark from you would be, well, I wouldn't like it, I guess.

I didn't say H had apologised in this thread- I said he had been given an opportunity to, and didn't.

Megatron is the guy who apologised... and a few others.

I haven't seen H apologise except as the jokey finale to a non-serious post. can you post links?
 
 
Quantum
22:48 / 12.07.06
"That was bad of me, Olula, and I am sorry." Haus

See the apologising? Do you see?
 
 
Char Aina
22:50 / 12.07.06
i think this may be turning into a case study...

FFF? it's down to you.

you gonna say "oh, wait. shit, yeah, i was being a bit crap on the whole reading of threads thing, sorry"?
or are you going to claim that everyone is twisting things?

as it stands you are just pressing on past your glaring error, and it isnt helping anyone to support anything you say, which, as you may have noticed when reading this thread, i have tried to do.

dont get me wrong, dude.
i hate haus.
i just hate sloppy reading more.
 
 
The Falcon
23:01 / 12.07.06
He does, but you have to try REALLY hard and be utterly sure he's wrong. I managed it once. I got a certificate.

OK, I was so chuffed I made one. Is it a criiiime?


Like cube, I have a framed Haus-apology above my computer. Unfortunately it's not on the public board, and I can't prove it to you, FFF. Perhaps someone can find evidence of such?

It's not really surprising, though, that someone with strident and well thought-out, principled and argued views generally finds little to apologise for. I don't really think he should apologise for calling DM a 'village idiot' because, contextually, at that point I feel this was precisely what the boy was being. I was glad it was said. I'm glad DM has reassessed his contribution to that thread. In the end, here, the message and particular political bias you spin out in a thread is going to be of more import than 'how nice you are'. It would be good if we could all respect one another, and be ace together, but some perspectives that have been, and doubtless will continue to be, displayed are appalling enough to be - thankfully - excoriated on various levels. DM's contribution to that thread was, again I feel, one such example.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:02 / 12.07.06
And yes, Haus does apologise for making wrong assumptions, or speaking out of line, when it's warranted. And yes, I can think of a specific example from not long ago... unfortunately it's somewhere in the Duke Lacrosse thread, and I really, really don't want to read that again to find the link.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
23:35 / 12.07.06
If Haus doesn't have to apologise, then there is no way I'm ever apologisng again. Ever. Ever ever ever. So there.

On the other hand, if Haus has to apologise, but gets to do it in a snarky way, I'm gonna do that too. A woo hoo!

FFF, good try, but unfortunetly Haus just doesn't work like that. You know that bit in Dogma where the angels try to get back into heaven, but if they do the whole world ends because it would mean that God had been wrong. It's a bit like that.

And somebody said that flyboy was haus' sidekick? See I thought he was haus' right hand too. Man. Haus' right hand man. Damn these high heel shoes!
 
 
foolish fat finger
23:35 / 12.07.06
indeed toksik- you did back me up on a couple of points. however as I stated earlier, I am ignoring H's posts, so obviously I didn't see that.

and it is my opinion that H posted that simply as an attempt to undermine me. that is my honest opinion. I have never seen H apologise graciously. he's a clever man, I do believe, but gracious, no.

what this discussion seems to come down to, is that you guys dig H, I don't. that's cool. I am happy to leave it at that. though I do get the feeling that there are people here who are keen to give me a kicking. well, whatever. it is gonna happen; I have posted as honestly and non-judgementally as I could, and tried to give H the feedback he asked for. damn, I just realised this is my last post! and I am too drunk to say what I feel!

ok, for what it's worth (less than zero)
ok, barb is too elitist. it's too hard to join. the policy on becoming a member does not stop trolls. a lotta people seem to worship H, but really, he's a 2D irritant, in my opinion.

there are some cool people here, and I really appreciate the interractions I have had with them. I came here with an open mind; I left knowing who I think is a sod.

falconer-I don't really think he should apologise for calling DM a 'village idiot' because, contextually, at that point I feel this was precisely what the boy was being.

no, I disagree. an insult is an insult. one can disagree with someone without calling them an idiot.

who is a scumbag, who is a saint? I don't know, but I do know who I am, and I won't post an insult to a person I don't know. seems I am goin down in barb history as a 'case'. golly.

peace to my friends.

to all else- enjoy yr H.

bye
 
  

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