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Burning down the Haus part 2 - Attack of the Clones

 
  

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*
17:53 / 24.08.06
Sorry to get in the way of the cute bears and Homes-Moriarty debates. I've been trying to post that for hours and I kept getting interrupted.
 
 
Char Aina
18:07 / 24.08.06
thanks for doing so, though.
i think a fair few were thinking it, myself included.
 
 
Ticker
18:16 / 24.08.06
You might want to aim a bit lower. Cheech/Chong?

Er, I don't think you can get much lower than Mrs. Claus and Mrs. Grundy...I mean did you read that? It was weak.

You have a hangover? I'm shocked. Shocked I say.
 
 
Ticker
18:18 / 24.08.06
Sorry to get in the way of the cute bears and Homes-Moriarty debates.

Well, id, someone had to make use of all the attention focused on what is at its core a very silly topic. You have pointed out a very important issue and clearly defined why a certain comment up stream was icky. Thank you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:14 / 24.08.06
id: It's a very good point. The problem is that I am simultaneously depressed and bewildered by Reidcourchie. I can't understand how he can act in this way unless it follows the pathology of some recognised condition, so I seek to understand on those grounds. However, I also know on some level that it isn't - that this is just him, and that makes it hard to react with the sympathy that I should have for him. Which is itself ableist, in a way - it presupposes that people with recognisable conditions deserve sympathy, whereas people who are just a bit unplayable do not. I don't even know if there's a word for that. So, I think that my reference to Reid possibly suffering a cognitive problem (Reid used the term "learning difficulty, I believe, to suggest that I had. I did no such thing) is maybe not entirely sincere, in the sense that I am pessimistic about the possibility that the explanation would be that clear, nor ironic. It was an attempt to make sense of what seems a nonsense. However, it was no doubt unwise even to approach those waters.

And this discussion is making me sad, in part because I know that the fact that I am in it is a sign that I am near the end of my considerable resources of tact and energy. It also makes me sad because ultimately one ends up just like one's interlocutor, which in this case is a step down for me so shocking as to make me very seriously question the wisdom of continuing to be a member of this board. One has to repeat what one has said in the face of the opposite number spinning off into progressively more strident and random self-exculpation, and one also has to repeat oneself because no worthwhile content is added. But does one, really? Everyone here already has their reading. Reid will not be compelled to look at what he has written. The haustrolls have never let the actual structure of words arranged into sentences affect their fantasies. The members with worthwhile things to add either checked out already or already understand what has happened.

Reid has now reached the stage where he is not only saying the same things, but actually using the same phrases over and over again, in the hope presumably that it will somehow hypnotise the reader. Arbiter arbiter arbiter. A comforting word, it seems, which means simply "does not agree with Reid", a particularly arbitrary action when he says things like:

You are one who's been using words like stupid, histrionic and a liar

Having apparently forgotten just who shot first. Or perhaps deciding to avoid that inconvenient truth. As we have established, he will not remember what others say or what he has said from one post to the next. Can one, put simply, be that stupid?

Opinion opinion opinion - what is simple and obvious fact - that he responded to Flyboy's statement without having read it correctly, and has been trying to drown this out with bellowing ever since - what a child of twelve could easily work out from the simple process of cause (a comment on "some people") and effect (a complaint - dishonest or amnesiac, who knows? - that Flyboy was describing the action of all of Barbelith). Reading reading reading opinion opinion.

Debating debating debating - how untrustworthy those who do use words, who know what they mean, who understand the basics of following or putting together an argument are. How justified it is to lie and lie again - for example by claiming suddenly, as arbiter, that to reference another and an ongoing thread is somehow cheating, along with knowing what oneself and others have said - no rare nobility this, as it appears .trampetunia also forgot that he had himself said that he understood why his comment could easily have been read as homophobic, but he has at least not disregarded this post of mine and the subsequent reassurance that I had no intention of suggesting that he _was_ homophobic in order to keep the dishonest ad hominem flowing, as Reid has, speaking apparently as his representative. .trampetunia, you might want to think about whether you want this advocate.

Minutiae minutiae - how strange that whatever Reidcourchie sees as minutiae dovetails with what he is wrong about, either again through carefully-tended ignorance or dishonesty. These "minutiae" that somehow had him rotting a thread on the banning of another member of Barbelith to try to bludgeon those who have pointed up his inability to read simple English. How strange that the failure to read all the words in a sentence has been relegated to the world of minutiae, despite what one might see as the "substantive" effect of sending Reid out on a threadrot wankathon.

Oh, and some of these minutiae are semantic - a word that has already beeen used more times than I can count on Barbelith to mean "cheating by putting words in rows". I remain astonished that one can pay so little attention to Barbelith not to notice this - don't tell me, Reid, opinion opinion opinion arbiter arbiter reading.

A little abuse, and then, which admittedly was very funny, a spelling correction made in the belief that spelling and grammar are the same thing. From a man who appears to suffer from a wasting disease of the comma, this should not be surprising. Understand, Reid: I commented on the paucity of your grammar because it makes it hard to understand what you mean. You did this because you wanted to score a point. That pretty much sums it up.

But all of this hapless flatwormery would be of little import if I had been better rested, and (and this is perhaps key) Reidcourchie had not begun this entire campaign of blather in defence of white straight male privilege.

Still, ultimately I have let myself and the side down, because the time I have wasted speaking to a man whose arguments would only make sense to those unhappy little haustrolls creeping around the guttering I might have spent actually making a worthwhile contribution to Barbelith, or encouraging those who do. Reid has simply been doing what he is able to do. In that sense, at least, he is blameless.

This has been the weakness of a day. I hope it will not survive midnight.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:27 / 24.08.06
OK, if we're going to start writing gibberish, I'l simply start posting in Portuguese, and only three to five Barbelithians will understand what I'm saying...

"Porque, no final das contas, o lance com Haus é que provavelmente o mano é meio lelé da cuca, e não consegue evitar de discutir uma questão até o fim, além do além do além. Assim sendo, o coitado merece nossa compaixão antes de tudo, e ficar dando corda para ele, ou em outras palavras, dando pano pra manga, vamos todos acabar com uma puta duma discussão sem fim, e todo mundo vai perder o fio de meada..."

See what I mean?

and %20 to you too.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:31 / 24.08.06
As a matter of fact:

Gibberish Generator
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:36 / 24.08.06
Mind your language, DM.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:46 / 24.08.06
Language your mind, Haus
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:47 / 24.08.06
Never you mind, DM.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:48 / 24.08.06
Damn. Falconator's post has been removed. Now, my joke completely lost its meaning.

Oh, well...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:49 / 24.08.06
I could go back and utterly knob up my HTML again, if it would help...
 
 
The Falcon
21:57 / 24.08.06
Damn. Falconator's post has been removed. Now, my joke completely lost its meaning.

Oh, well...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHH. Oh, that feels better.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:01 / 24.08.06
I could go back and utterly knob up my HTML again, if it would help...

Nah, let's confuse people, dude.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
00:01 / 25.08.06
Ah. Not the same Kay who started an entire thread to explain why he was right and everyone else was wrong, then stormed off his own thread in a huff when they did not carry the day, then? Righty.

I didn't storm off, dear, I was bored off.
 
 
Char Aina
01:11 / 25.08.06
dude, that's prolly worse.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:27 / 25.08.06
Bored by all those meanies asking you to explain or back up your inane crypto-racist generalisations?
 
 
petunia
12:15 / 25.08.06
At risk of becoming a little bearish myself...

I think Id summed up his concerns about your remarks on disabilities in a much more succinct and erudite way than I could. His are the reasons I felt the remarks were somewhat dodgy. But you have offered apology for these, so we'll take it no further.

as it appears .trampetunia also forgot that he had himself said that he understood why his comment could easily have been read as homophobic

Not quite. On the side, what leads you to think that i'm m-i? Have i m-i'd in other posts, or do you consider my posting style to be particuarly 'male'?

But I just want to try to clarify a little on the matter of the 'homophobic' post. I want to answer your earlier question:

Incidentally, you say here:

I personally don't find reference to erect, fighting bears (and metaphorical transpositions from arguing people to said grizzly situation) to be 'remarkably open to being read as informed by homophobia', but that is a matter for another thread...


And yet you also say:

Again, I apologise for any offense caused by what could easily be read as a homophobic post.

Which would you like? I think the second is probably an easier sell, since the first depends on leaving out your subsequent injunction that Reid and I kiss and/or feel each other up.


I find there to be a difference between 'remarkably open to being read as...' and 'could easily be read as..'.

There a stronger degree of force in your assertion, which i objected to. I realise I may be being overly sensitive, but I found the comment you made to hold certain elements of ad hominem attack.

Allow me to explain - As the popular catchphrase goes, 'on barbelith, you are your posts'. Unless I provide any particular information on myself in RL (which would still end up being 'my posts'...), all you have to go on is what I say in my posts.

Therefore, if one of my posts can be read as homophobic, it stands to reason that .trampetunia (i.e. 'barbelith me') could possibly be homophobic. I find this distressing.

You chose to make note of the fact that I had made such a post in another thread. You could have chosen to say 'as recent discussion on another thread shows, you are well aware of the potential for different readings...' But you chose to say

On the other hand, no offence intended but we did just spend a page in Barbequotes talking about a post of yours which was if not homophobic in intent certainly remarkably open to being read as informed by homophobia, so I think we can also agree that one's own reading of text may not be the only available reading.

Which could easily parse as 'no offense, but the post you say you didnt mean as homophobic certainly seems that way'. While there may be no offense intended, I do wonder why you chose to bring my potentially homophobic comments in the middle of a different thread (yes, it was to show the potential for misreading. Yes, you could have rephrased it).

Loathe as I am to agree with Reidcourchie, I felt (and thought) that there was some element of 'this poster has said x, which makes their posts a little less worthwhile'. I think that it is important in a discussion to refer to the points made in that discussion and not resort to bringing in outside measures.

However, you do go on to say (Which is not to say that the intent was homophobic, obvs - only that I didn't realise that you would take issue with the statement or find it unfair, because I kind of thought that you had already _said_ it.)

and

...reassurance that I had no intention of suggesting that he _was_ homophobic in order to keep the dishonest ad hominem flowing

So I suppose your post was, if not ad hominem in intent certainly remarkably open to being read as informed by ad hominem desires.

But to answer Which would you like? I think the second is probably an easier sell, since the first depends on leaving out your subsequent injunction that Reid and I kiss and/or feel each other up.

My actual injuction was that Reid and you Calm down. Have a kiss or a feel, or just put your cocks away and walk off.

I stand by both comments. I wouldn't have written what I did if I had thought it was potentially homophobic, but realised in retrospect that that reading was possible.

I had understood the potency for homophobic intent to lie in the image of the stereotypical closeted homosexual whose sexual tensions emerge in anger, who is a laughable figure.

I'm sorry if you feel that my suggestion that you might enjoy kissing another man or touching his penis (or, if you'd prefer, just walking away) is particularly founded in homophobia, I genuinely am. I'm not sure how I could respond to such an assertion.

Put simply. It feels crap to have your posts read as homophobic. It feels crap to have these posts brought up as a debating tactic, after they've already been apologised for and explained. I was reacting out of this feeling, and possibly not acting as rationally as I could. I am sorry.

Thanks for listening.

Can we start the bear thread now?
 
 
petunia
12:18 / 25.08.06
So I suppose your post was, if not ad hominem in intent certainly remarkably open to being read as informed by ad hominem desires.

Sorry. That was cheap.
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:32 / 25.08.06
You know, I don't think the bears fighting was a homophobic remark, although it cold easily be read that way.

The thing is, this "if two people are arguing with each other too much, they must have to hots for each other" theme is a very old one, and it can, and has been used for all kinds of interpersonal relationships. In this case it was aimed at two m-indentified persons, but it could be used for a male/female duo, a female/female duo, a lion/dolphin duo, and whatever.

So, childish? Sure! Homophobic? Hmmm, don't really think so.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:40 / 25.08.06
Yeah, of course it can be applied to any gender combination. I have to say though that when it's been applied to me and a male interlocuter it's still been dodgy, sort of a "Oh, you're only disagreeing with that poor sweet man because you're not getting any and secretly you want to slake your icky female lust upon him!" thing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:49 / 25.08.06
But if Dead Megatron doesn't think it's homophobic, it can't be! He's the first person whose counsel I would seek when attempting to decide whether or not something was homophobic, after all.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:56 / 25.08.06
Yeah, MC, I get what you mean and it can be damn frustrating when one's on the receiving end of such comments. But I reckon, at some level, theres' usually a certain amount of sexual tension beteen most people, really (kind of part of our species' drive); and heated arguments do kind of end up looking like the two people involved are trying to out sexy each other. Usually when people say "oh, get a room" it's because the display of ego is as unsightly as watching a private act in public (not that there's anything wrong with private acts being made in public, but, well, you know what I mean, right?).

By the way I didn't want to rot the Barbequotes thread any more, but "scent glad" as defined by the wiki is as follows:

"Scent glands are found in the genital area of most mammals and in various other parts of the body, such as the underarms of humans and the preorbital glands of deer. They produce a semi-viscous fluid which contains pheromones. These odor-messengers indicate information such as status, territory marking, mood, and sexual power. The odor may be subliminal, not consciously detectable."

Therefore, though Haus was right to talk about territory and gender in the Barbequotes thread, he didn't really acknowledge that when he types:

"I can think of about five possible responses, none of which involve Alex or Triplets rubbing their scent glands over the other thread.

This could be interpreted as the two members rubbing their members in a female i-d space. Whether this is for status, territory, mood, and / or sexual power is pretty complicated and open to interpretation.

So, I suppose in some way we all probably use sex sometimes as an analogy (even the Haus) for other's behaviour. But you're probably right, MC, and we should all try harder not to in future (even if it is funny, for some, anyway).
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
13:43 / 25.08.06
Why don't you just stop? Just stop, there's a good lad, and we'll say no more about it.

I want to, I really do it's ruining my afternoon tea breaks. And if there really was to be nothing more to say about it then I would. Problem is Haus, using terms designed to objectify has set up a false dichotomy of me either being a troll or suffering mental problems for disagree with his reading of a very subjective situation. He also has a history of cross-referencing threads for the purpose of attacking other posters who he either apparently does not like or whom disagree with him, so I'm pretty much guaranteed to hear about it again. However I shan't force you to read this thread at gunpoint if that would help.

Haus, Reid— when you each suggest that the other is suffering from a disability, are you being sincere or are you being ironic?

This has been going on for five days now so anything's possible but I don't think I've suggested or implied that Haus suffers from a disability, obnoxiousness appears to have been a virtual lifestyle choice. Just to make it clear my position is Haus will not understand my posts (or indeed anyone else’s) if it in anyway contradicts him or undermines his position. The 2-3 admittances of wrongdoing he's highlighted in this thread notwithstanding.

Having apparently forgotten just who shot first. Or perhaps deciding to avoid that inconvenient truth. As we have established, he will not remember what others say or what he has said from one post to the next. Can one, put simply, be that stupid?

I described Flyboy's post as stupid not Flyboy.

You have set up an argument based upon semantic minutiae of Flyboy having said some and me saying many and your "religious adherence" to taking me "absolutely literally", which is alright for you to do but not for me to do, if indeed I actually did it, and using it is an excuse to call me names. At the same time insisting that you're somehow not only justified in doing so but the Charles Bronson of Barbelith (okay Haus hasn't claimed that but since we're not understanding exaggerating for entertainment's sake this week I thought I'd better make it clear).

I'm repeating myself because you're not getting this, we can stop this anytime you want.

Reid has now reached the stage where he is not only saying the same things, but actually using the same phrases over and over again, in the hope presumably that it will somehow hypnotise the reader. Arbiter arbiter arbiter. A comforting word, it seems, which means simply "does not agree with Reid"

Again just regurgitating my own argument, minus the substance and spitting it back yet accusing me of being repetitive. Which I guess would work if nobody else here could read.

Debating debating debating - how untrustworthy those who do use words, who know what they mean, who understand the basics of following or putting together an argument are. How justified it is to lie and lie again - for example by claiming suddenly, as arbiter, that to reference another and an ongoing thread is somehow cheating, along with knowing what oneself and others have said - no rare nobility this, as it appears .

And yet you are one of the few people who do this on Barbelith, largely out of context and nearly always as a form of attack. However let me attempt to demonstrate this apparently difficult concept for you to grasp. Lets take the situation off the board and put it in a real life context to see if such behaviour is appropriate, lets say for sake of example a discussion in a pub:

Person 1: I think we should all have a nice pint of lager.
Person 2: Actually I'd quite like a glass of dry white wine.
Person 1: Yes but what would you know in January 1996 you claimed that Napoleon was a misunderstood genius, which is clearly wrong and stupid! Therefore you can be ignored!

Again this is hypothetical example I'm not really suggesting Haus has ever actually had this conversation.

But all of this hapless flatwormery would be of little import if I had been better rested, and (and this is perhaps key) Reidcourchie had not begun this entire campaign of blather in defence of white straight male privilege.

Ahhhh. Is this what got you riled up? That makes a little bit more sense. Not what I was doing at all, again which can be seen in the other thread, but it would explain a lot of this nonsense, if that was what you decided I was doing, presumably because you can see past the words we write and into our heads. But very nice, the implication is there influencing people when the read it but not solid enough that you can back away from it if things don’t go your way. Incidentally however ill thought out and ignorant my questions may have been do have a look at the difference between Deva’s and Haus's response to them. Deva may have been just as irritated as Haus was by my questions but a very different response.

See you on Tuesday. Have a nice bank holiday weekend (if you’re having one, if not just have a nice weekend).
 
 
Olulabelle
13:46 / 25.08.06
Mordant, .trampetunia insists that hir comments were not homophobic in intent, but some people really felt they were. As one of these people, do you think that you might have read more into .trampetunia's comment than ze meant because you have had this experience yourself in the past?

I originally didn't see that the comment had homophobic undertones when I read it, I read it as it would apply to any two people fighting. However, that's not to say it didn't have homophobic undertones, just that I didn't see them at first. So I wonder why I didn't and I was thinking, there seems to be two main reasons: people who have experienced such things may notice them more quickly than those who have not, or people who have experienced such things may be more likely to assume that's what's meant, even if it's not.
 
 
Ticker
13:54 / 25.08.06
I move to have this thread stripped of everything but absurd quips, snugly pics, and bad poetry.

Haus dear, you should only let people call you out to freestyle rap battle in the future.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
14:01 / 25.08.06
Olulabelle, that's a damn good point. Is this a case of (erm?) ambiguity is in the eye of the beholder? Interesting...

Also, for the record, DM's winky seems to get mentioned a lot round here -- I mean, I know "sometimes hir posts do seem to have sexual undertones and can be read as a little creepy to some*", but still...

Oh, and I'm with xk. Although, a dance-off (as mentioned above by another member) is more my styleee.

*e.g. DM's (erm?) flirting in Kali's "The things we do for money" thread
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
14:15 / 25.08.06
To hell with it all I was bored of this on Tuesday. I thought I'd do a Haus and just not back down at all, I was quite determined not to give up but I really can't be bothered anymore. It's tedious and I was starting to have trouble remembering what it was all about in the first place.

Haus I see above, and it's mentioned in the Your Watch thread, that you're thinking of taking some time out of Barbelith. I don't know if I'm partially (or completely) to blame for it or not (you seem to imply so above) if that is the case please don't. I think you've got a lot more invested in Barbelith than I do, to my mind it's a great place but not worth getting upset over or indeed upsetting people over. Even you.

I'm dropping this because there's nothing fun about it and it's my freetime. The post above do want you want with it, deconstruct it, ignore it, if you wish I'll have it deleted.

To everyone else who complained about the boringness of my posts and the thread in general, I would apologise but why on earth were you reading them in the first place?

This whole argument has made me realise how much I owe Quantum an apology.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
14:18 / 25.08.06
Sorry, Reidcourchie. I didn't intend to butt in. Best wishes, comrade.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:21 / 25.08.06
Have I really been following this thread since Tuesday. What a week.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
14:23 / 25.08.06
PW it's cool man, do what you want dude.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
14:26 / 25.08.06
Ditto.
 
 
Ticker
14:30 / 25.08.06
sorry to be double posting but my connection is slow this AM and I feel poorily that my last post came in after meaningful dialogue appeared in the thread.
Sorry if it reads as a criticism of the new subtopic rather than the intended jab at the roast-haus-until-our-eyes-bleed.

Yeah, of course it can be applied to any gender combination. I have to say though that when it's been applied to me and a male interlocuter it's still been dodgy, sort of a "Oh, you're only disagreeing with that poor sweet man because you're not getting any and secretly you want to slake your icky female lust upon him!" thing.

I usually get a sexist response about just needing to prove I'm more 'manly' when I'm arguing with a man in public. Last time it happened my female companion laughed hysterically and responded that was not the topic of debate, rather it had already been proven fact through action. I love my friends.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:30 / 25.08.06
Yeah, of course it can be applied to any gender combination. I have to say though that when it's been applied to me and a male interlocuter it's still been dodgy, sort of a "Oh, you're only disagreeing with that poor sweet man because you're not getting any and secretly you want to slake your icky female lust upon him!" thing.

Oh yeah, that argument is always annoying, no matter who you are. After all, it implies that your (possibly) righteous indignation at something is just a cover-up for subconsconcious desires and thus should not be taken seriously. It's the whole point of the argument, btw. Alhtough, I agree it must particularly infuriating when you are already in a position of disavantage, as being female in a male dominated world, or non-het in a heterocentric society.

But if Dead Megatron doesn't think it's homophobic, it can't be! He's the first person whose counsel I would seek when attempting to decide whether or not something was homophobic, after all.

Oh, yeah, sarcasm: Flyboy standart response in any argument. Wasn't one of those sarcastic remarks of yours that begun this whole multi-thread debate, FB? Btw, you forgot to imply I'm sexist too.

Also, for the record, DM's winky seems to get mentioned a lot round here -- I mean, I know "sometimes hir posts do seem to have sexual undertones and can be read as a little creepy to some*", but still...

Yeah, I get that IRL too: lots of people find my sexual undertones to be a bit creepy at times*. Others, admitedly fewer in numbers, atually like them. Oh, well...

* I try not to make their creeping out into even further reason for dubious remarks and arrogant sarcastic outloud laughter. I'm not - and Flyboy will surely agree in a sarcastic manner - perfect.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:09 / 25.08.06
S'OK, DM. I loves ya, even if you do get a bit funky fresh sometimes.

By the way, I reckon a better analogy for some Barbelith disputes is comparing them to that fight scene in 'They Live'. You know....

"Put the glasses on!"
WHACK!
"No!"
KAPOW!
"Put - the - glasses - ON!"
SMACK!

(Although who is Roddy Piper in these excahnges is always open to debate, eh?)

What d'ya reckon? <<<>>>
 
  

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