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Doctor Who: Season 2 UK

 
  

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Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
19:44 / 08.05.06
it's inevitable that if you've got a couple of actors bumping naughties off-screen then there's going to be some of that coming across on-screen

Do you think that's possibly why they cast Tennant's girlfriend as Madame De Pompalomp?
 
 
Lama glama
19:45 / 08.05.06
Probably. Mr. Moffat apparently had her in mind the entire time he was writing the episode, as he had just finished watching Thunderbirds with his children.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:15 / 08.05.06
Shit. I didn't know that. In that case, yeah. Not to accuse the show of nepotism or anything - she was bloody good in the role, I thought, and they definitely sparked together in much the same was as Piper and Tennant... haven't really.
 
 
adamswish
13:49 / 09.05.06
Do you think that's possibly why they cast Tennant's girlfriend as Madame De Pompalomp?

As far as I know they didn't become a couple until they worked together on that episode (and may not of even met until they worked together).

Persoanlly I loved the episode, even the big "rescue" which just screamed early eighties. Maybe because I got a flash back to the video of Prince Charming by Adam and the Ants.
 
 
some guy
15:38 / 09.05.06
the few bits of Coupling I watched never gave me the impression that Moffatt has any great empathy with or understanding of a non-straight POV

Should it have?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:43 / 09.05.06

An excellent question, and one which is perhaps best answered in a new thread called "Coupling and representations of homosexuality", rather than in this thread, which is about Doctor Who.
 
 
some guy
17:23 / 09.05.06
An excellent question, and one which is perhaps best answered in a new thread called "Coupling and representations of homosexuality", rather than in this thread, which is about Doctor Who.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:45 / 09.05.06
Lawrence, Lawrence. You've been doing so well. Going back to these adenoidal-kid one-liners is a backward step. Now, let's make this a little more clear. I am entitled to my opinion, and also entitled to moderate threads for the good of Barbelith. If it seems that you are trying to pull this thread off topic, it will be necessary for me, as a moderator, to try to deal with that. The above post was the first step in that dealing. If you genuinely have an interest in whether Coupling should have been expected to have within its remit a more nuanced approach to non-straight as well as straight coupling, then start a thread on it. It could be the most Barbelith thread ever. Otherwise, could we focus on Steven Moffat in this thread with reference to Doctor Who?? Thanks.
 
 
some guy
18:46 / 09.05.06
Otherwise, could we focus on Steven Moffat in this thread with reference to Doctor Who?

Do you honestly think we're not? Coupling was raised by another poster and it leads to an interesting question that is naturally going to extend to Doctor Who as well. Some people clearly find Moffat's work on Coupling germane to the thread (although as you didn't comment on them perhaps you didn't read those posts) and I was in fact heading somewhere related to The Empty Child/The Girl in the Fireplace with my question.

The tired nannying is neither clever nor necessary.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:02 / 09.05.06
Well then, prove me wrong, Lawrence. Say something interesting and relevant about Steven Moffat's treatment of homosexuality in Coupling, which is in turn relevant to Dr. Who. It may take more than three words, but just imagine how clever you'll look. You can make me look really, really stupid here, and all you have to do is be polite, considerate and engaged with other posters. G'wnan. I'm wide open.
 
 
■
19:35 / 09.05.06
Dr. Who
[Shudder] Full-out on Doctor, please.
Otherwise, yes. I went to the bother of buying and watching Robots of Death on your recommendation, wc, and all I got was the rather unhelpful:

There is a lot of corridor running, though

Good thing we didn't see anything like that on Saturday.

I was looking forward to a bit of an exchange on relative merits but (and this pains me) Haus is right in that you seem to want to add little but brief bon mots alluding to how much better Who classic was without really explaining them. There are good reasons why I am avoiding discussing the new series, what's yours?
 
 
Ganesh
20:54 / 09.05.06
Do you honestly think we're not?

Well, the singular contribution "should it have?" doesn't relate the point at hand back to Doctor Who but rather appears to move it further along a tangent in which the 'purpose' of Coupling becomes a topic in itself. It also sounds faintly challenging of E Randy's observation.

As a moderator of this forum, I'm also interested in where you're going with this, and whether you can make it relevant to the thread. If so (and I'm hoping you can), might I suggest that, in future, you develop relevant points in the one post rather than risking appearing like you're simply throwing in a one-liner?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:56 / 09.05.06
Sorry, Cube - my bad. Now, I'm no expert on Coupling, but is it significant that Captain Jack and the Doctor _didn't_ flirt in "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances"? It could just be me, but if I recall correctly the limits of Captain Jack's rapacity seemed to be the borders of Nine. There's a lot of flirting with Rose, certainly, but does he come on to the Doctor at all?

Personally, I hadn't seen that as significant, especially given the Daleks and the kissing and everything, but at that point I was still basically seeing the Doctor as asexual, or not sexual in a way immediately comprehensible. Which may still be the case - he reacts to Madame de Pomppompapompomonmydrum's clearly romantic actions by inviting her to come and take a ride in his TARDIS, rather than by kissing her back, for example, and I think there's a discussion over whether the Doctor is a tourist in human sexuality - he gets snogged, but it is an experiential rather than an interactive thing. Interesting, though.

Another recurrent and mildly irritating thing about this series so far - people getting into the Doctor's head but not actually making any useful comments about it. I liked the treatment here better than "New Earth", mind.
 
 
iamus
21:17 / 09.05.06
and I think there's a discussion over whether the Doctor is a tourist in human sexuality - he gets snogged, but it is an experiential rather than an interactive thing. Interesting, though.

That's kind of along the same lines that I'm thinking. That he's been dipping his toe in the water, but it's only reminding him why he's never gotten involved in that sort of thing in the first place. Dunno though, I don't really want to speculate out loud until I have something more substantial to run with.

Another recurrent and mildly irritating thing about this series so far - people getting into the Doctor's head but not actually making any useful comments about it

How so?
 
 
iamus
21:27 / 09.05.06
I've got it!

The Doctor and The Face of Boe!!!11!!1


Secret, eh?

Didn't they say last season that The Face was pregnant?
 
 
Ganesh
21:32 / 09.05.06
How did that happen? Did someone mount The Face?

Did the Face of Boe get inside the Doctor's head? I don't remember that well. What was the outcome?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:36 / 09.05.06
Not quite what I meant - not that he's trying out human sexuality, just that it's something that he finds interesting and exciting the way that he finds werewolves interesting and exciting - he wouldn't want to be a part of it, but he's interested when it happens near him. Speculation, though - at the moment we're still a bit short on characterisation of this incarnation.

On people being in his head - so far, in four episodes, we've had Cassandra in "New Earth" and Renette here. Both have communicated mood, but not so much autobiography or psychology. Which they probably shouldn't, but if many more people wander in there I'm going to expect a map.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:55 / 09.05.06
They've had relatively short times in there to rummage around in his mental wardrobe, given that he's hundreds of years old. I expect they'd also find that his memories would involve such strange sights and complex situations that the rummaging would give little more than a general suggestion of mood.

Reinette seemed to focus on his loneliness as a youngster, which is interesting given how ancient the Doctor is. Perhaps, like humans, his long term memory is recharged by advancing age. Or he has hundreds of years of detailed memories to wade through and interpret and either Reinette got lucky or the Doctor guided her to something in particular.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:04 / 09.05.06
I was in fact heading somewhere related to The Empty Child/The Girl in the Fireplace with my question.

Then maybe it would have been a bright idea to use that post to make whatever point you were going to make, eh?
 
 
iamus
22:16 / 09.05.06
How did that happen? Did someone mount The Face?

Well I've heard it gives great Head.


On people being in his head - so far, in four episodes, we've had Cassandra in "New Earth" and Renette here.

That's a point. Never occured to me.

Did Cassandra have anything to say about the Doctor? Apart from him being rude? I know she certainly commented on Rose's feeling's for him.

If there's one thing I could say about the previous season though, is that I thought it was far more reliant on mood than anything actually explicitly stated for its character development.

We never actually found out the Doctor's exact role in the Time War. We know generally the part he played, we know it very closely echoed his situation in the last two episodes but there wasn't what you could call tightly plotted characterisation......

I mean, character was reflected extremely well through the individual episodes (denouement of Dalek, Doctor Dances, Parting etc.), but it was never actually said that this is this because of this. More that it was only implied through the action, dialogue and performance with the viewer left to fill in the blanks.

I'd be surprised if this season goes differently. Who's a difficult one. You don't want to get too specific with him or else you risk compromising everything that's great about the character (The show's called "Doctor Who" after all). I think it's all about mood. We'll get enough emotional sketches throughout the series to let us build up our own satisfactory picture, but I'm not sure we'll learn the specifics.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:10 / 10.05.06
Cassandra didn't really have access to the characters memories, she couldn't operate the sonic screwdriver as the Doctor and couldn't convince as Rose when she was her. It was The Face of Boe (and his nurse) that made the references to the Lonely God.

Haus of tiny Terry Waites There's a lot of flirting with Rose [in 'The Empty Child'/'The Doctor Dances'], certainly, but does he come on to the Doctor at all?

Not really. The Doctor perhaps flirts a bit at the end of 'TDD' asking about which of them Jack wants to dance with. Instead Jack is busy trying to chat up most of the other men in London, it's only in 'Boom Town' that anything really goes on between the two.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:45 / 10.05.06
This week's Tardisode is rather intriguing. It takes the form of an alert to members of an organisation called the Preachers about an imminent threat from the head of Cybus Industries.

Hundreds of thousands of people gone missing in South America (experimental fodder, or all fully-converted cybermen I wonder?).

Blurred shots of cybermen.

Mickey (evil alternate Mickey?) in a van.
 
 
Lama glama
10:22 / 10.05.06
ALternate Mickey working for the organisation trying to take down Cybus, perhaps?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:47 / 10.05.06
Pomppompapompomonmydrum

I'm watching you.
 
 
raggedman
13:51 / 10.05.06
With what we do know about the Doctor's 'type' Jacks probably not that attractive before the noble sacrifice bit.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
13:57 / 10.05.06
I'm already guessing that Captain Jack Harkness is no more come series two.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:25 / 10.05.06
Kali - I don't know if yopu mind spoilers or not, but if you are trying to avoid spoileration there's a "Doctor Who - Series 1" thread around here which could be read approximately apace with the US broadcasts... Cap'n Jack's journey is an interesting one; I think I got something out of not knowing how it ended, but YMMV.
 
 
Cat Chant
15:24 / 10.05.06
Dupre (I never know what to call you! I think of you as 'ERandy' but only the Dupre seems to be constant, but it sounds very brusque) - anyway, thanks for your very articulate post, with which I agree entirely - except that I'm not that fond of Tennant, so he didn't manage to save the episode for me. I can completely see how he could have, though, and I agree that he didn't go down the 'married' route in his approach to the character(s)...

I thought Captain Jack was flirting with the Doctor in Empty Child/Doctor Dances (gun size, bananas, etc), but will have to watch them again to check. %Oh, the hardship.%
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:49 / 11.05.06
Yes, I should do that as well - I just read through the transcripts, but he seems to be annoyed with the Doctor a lot of the time (which is understandable - they do have different attitudes...); at the end, he's made the noble sacrifice - he's proved his worth, I think, to the Doctor, by showing that he'll give the only life he has if necessary to save others - and that's when the Doc asks who Jack wants to dance with - is that flirtation? Hmmm... not sure.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:13 / 11.05.06
he seems to be annoyed with the Doctor a lot of the time

See, maybe it's because I'm more steeped in teh slash than you are (if I may presume...) but I think I read a lot of that as boy-on-boy flirtation written specifically with an eye to slash convention, and as a contrast to the different style of boy-on-girl flirtation. Which made me happy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:16 / 11.05.06
Ah. Like Blake and Avon sexysnark? Possibly...
 
 
Blake Head
20:54 / 11.05.06
Bit of a late response but:

I don’t think you were being a snarky fem-nazi Deva – which is good, because as you should by now be aware, this season The Doctor is on OUR side. He might have made MISTAKES in the past, but he has put all that ABNORMAILITY behind him and literally been REBORN into the light. Be warned, any further talk of your bisexual textuality and we WILL send The Doctor to CURE you of your proclivities; the man in the fireplace can get to you anywhere and anytime he likes, and when you least expect it will MANFULLY SNOG YOU into RIGHTEOUS HETERONARMATIVITY! He doesn’t just stop your transgressions against sexual norms, he makes sure they NEVER WERE!

[I wonder if members of the religious right ever write SF slanted fanfic around the idea of a time-travelling Orthodoxy/Het Police…]

Ahem.

My reaction to the ('the ex and the missus!') stuff in the last episode was again more along the lines “the poor humans just didn’t get it”. Certainly my reaction to the kiss in this one was that it was incidental that she was a woman, and entirely relevant not just that she was a great historical personage but was possessed with a mind capable of assimilating and responding to the Doctor’s nature in just a few short meetings. I entirely take your point (Deva) that it’s much easier and less complex to present for it to be an incidental het-dynamic, and that there could well be pressures on the production of the show to conform (however consciously) to normative constructions of relationships. For the moment, though, in my mind the Doctor just happened to be kissing someone of the opposing sex, within a much larger and unseen/unspoken history, though again, if the increasing sexualisation of the Doctor this season continues along heterosexual lines it will be much harder to maintain that reading of the potential/ideal omnisexuality (one of the instances of that term’s comparative usefulness?) of his character as a credible one.

I was following your points on the bisexuality of the text up to a point, but I think to some my degree my heteronormativity radar (never going to catch on that one) probably isn’t operating just as sharply as yours here. I’d be interested in how you see the frameworks of heterosexual and homosexual relationships differing (other than their referents) and how that would affect the show practically. Currently I’m not finding it difficult to read the Doctor’s relationship with Mickey (as the most prominent recurring male character outside the Doctor) as anything but that they just don’t fancy each other – which is aided by them not having much of a relationship at all. But again, I sort of feel I’m missing something of what you’re actually getting at, so apologies if I am being a bit slow and traipsing off down the wrong path(s).

Funnily enough, following on from the idea of the current Doctor’s dynamic appealing to Who fandom, and possibly also this comment 'The Doctor used to come into my bedroom [on the telly] at night when I was little and there would be scary monsters, but that was okay because the Doctor always got rid of them! And now I am all grown-up I get to kiss the Doctor!’, I’m actually reading the “lonely god” descriptions as a way in which a particular sort of masculinity is sexualised. While the Doctor is a monster-banishing force, he’s also obviously not your traditional alpha-male brute force type of hero, and I think he has appealed historically because of his wit, imagination and problem-solving skills, and it is good to see that continued in the presentation of a modern role-model, and to have that include an element of him “getting the girl” only through being a non-typical weirdzo time-traveller rather than just being strong or handsome. Not that it needs to be a girl, or that (a comparison between the male Doctor and young male viewers simply being more direct) a non-typical framework for social status / relationships can or should only appeal to a certain kind of straight male. I wondered if this would be another way of potentially “queering” the Doctor without necessarily coming to a definite conclusion about his sexual proclivities? Or is that pretty obvious?
 
 
Tom Coates
21:53 / 11.05.06
To be honest, I tend to think of the kissing scene in that episode - along with the excruciating 'ah but doctor ... who?' line - to be the signs of a writer who thinks he's being clever with the franchise and wants to leave his mark but really needs to just be told to be less self-important and get on with it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:36 / 11.05.06
the excruciating 'ah but doctor ... who?' line

Mm. That makes twice this series, already. Once is bad enough.
 
 
■
22:56 / 11.05.06
doctor ... who

Watched the often excruciating Trial of a Timelord at the weekend and even JNT and Colin Baker avoided that faux pas with a neat sidestep. I get the feeling that Tennant is enough of a fan to know he should never say it, but for the rest if the cast? Nah. It may be gramatically correct to ask "D_____ w__?", but anyone with an inch of an ear for conversation would expect most people to ask: "Doctor? Doctor ... what?"
Rambling now, time for bed.
 
  

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