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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Doctor Who: Season 2 UK

  
  

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some guy
21:49 / 25.04.06
Well, I didn't feel last season that I was watching something whose primary audience was 12-15 year olds.

Supposedly BBC audience demographic reports peg the current audience at upwards of 80% adults. Which makes some of the creative decisions a little strange in my (worthless) opinion.
 
 
Mike Modular
23:43 / 25.04.06
that may be because she just 'bounced' better off Chris E

I don't wish to know the sordid details of her former marriage...

Um, yes, Tooth & Claw: what about the Steampunk reference, where the Doctor envisions an accelerated Victorian age? Is this a possible sign of things to come (in the series)? And did anyone else think the Royals-as-Werewolves thing was reminiscent of the Royals-as Archons thing in the Invisibles...? Just some thoughts...
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
05:22 / 26.04.06
I think the biggest problem with RTD is not that he’s not a good producer or a good writer, but more that he probably shouldn’t be serving in both capacities at the same time. He seems to me to writer who is potentially very, very good indeed, but one who would profit to a great degree from having someone who had both the authority and the inclination to give him a kick and shout ‘NO Russell!’ when he comes out with his more ill advised ideas, and unfortunately with him being the big dog on the show that doesn’t seem to happen.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:30 / 26.04.06
what about the Steampunk reference, where the Doctor envisions an accelerated Victorian age?

I'd forgotten about that, and it was one of my highlights ~ except that it seemed a real shame they were trying to prevent this alien-accelerated Victorian society. All the steampunk cultures I've seen look amazing.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:20 / 26.04.06
except that it seemed a real shame they were trying to prevent this alien-accelerated Victorian society.

And yet seemed perfectly at ease with the thought of lycanthropic blue-bloods with access to a 21st Century industrial base.

You'd have thought their next stop would have been to jump into the future to stop Empire of the Wolf 2000.
 
 
■
07:32 / 26.04.06
You'd have thought their next stop would have been to jump into the future to stop Empire of the Wolf 2000

Weeell, there's a bit of an unwritten tradition that in the TV series (the books do it all the time) that the TARDIS's time-travelling capabilities are never used as a quick fix to a problem, as it would underline all the inherent paradoxes in the show's basic concept. It's usually justified with hand-waving about "the web of time" or somesuch.
As an aside, you'll notice that it tends to be that the bad guys are the ones who want to use time travel to fix things in their favour: Daleks in The Chase; Cybermen in Attack of...; Scaroth in City of Death und so weiter.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:55 / 26.04.06
Supposedly BBC audience demographic reports peg the current audience at upwards of 80% adults. Which makes some of the creative decisions a little strange in my (worthless) opinion.

I think it's a genre thing, not an audience thing - that Who has always been generically kids' telly. Its creativity and excellence within those generic conventions is what makes it appeal to adults and children alike. (But then I have a thing about the tension between 'children's' as a genre and 'children's' as a designation of audience.)
 
 
adamswish
13:50 / 26.04.06
Loving the new series despite what the rest think, but then I wasn't the biggest Who fan back in the day (my favourite being McCoy {ducks and covers}).

And may I congraulate everyone on missing, or ignoring the huge trailer/spoiler the beeb ran either easter monday or tuesday that seemed to trailed the first half of the series (so I read the spoilers, doesn't hurt my enjoyment and I wouldn't have other's enjoyment ruined, although I will say in the Rose/Sarah Jane spat, Sarah Jane wins. You'll see Saturday).

I did get the impression last Saturday that you're on the right track with this being a more reckless Doctor and that could be building to something.

Oh and with this whole royal werewolf thing I thought the Winsdors weren't direct descendents of Vicky, shall have to check and research...
 
 
sleazenation
14:50 / 26.04.06
Yeah - the current Royals are descendants of Vicky - they changed their name to Windsor during WWI to make it sound a bit less German. If anything, it is Victoria's parentage that is more disputed - hence people being a bit confused about where haemophillia (sp!) came from...
 
 
raggedman
15:16 / 26.04.06
maybe then it's that constitutional powers being what they are these days there ain't much danger of Wils the Windsor Wolfman doing owt apart from appearing in all the tabloids...

now that would be a grand examination of British politics
Slitheen in their new labour skinsuits being mauled by royal werewolves for possession of this sceptered isle.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
17:24 / 26.04.06
Of course, Television Without Pity reviews the episodes and makes me laugh.
 
 
GogMickGog
18:36 / 26.04.06
Free DVDs in the Sun of vintage Troughton! Hurrah!

ahem.
 
 
■
18:36 / 26.04.06
my favourite being McCoy
No shame in that. You're wrong and Tom was the best, but I think McCoy had a special something that is hugely underrated. I think there's a vote on the best Who lurking somewhere down there...
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
19:10 / 26.04.06
McCoy was indeed a fine Doctor, I think the distinctly nasty streak and the tendency to manipulate both his allies and enemies in a surprisingly cold hearted manner really set him apart from any other Doctor before or since. Unlike some of the other Doctors you always knew that underneath the slightly capering exterior McCoy knew exactly what he was doing and what he was usually doing was activating one of any number of long term plans he had on the go to really fuck one or more of his enemies up. I find his grand manipulation of the Daleks into self-genocide stands as one of the most interesting moments in Who history, and also as a fantastic counterpoint to Baker the first’s refusal to wipe the things out. Especially chilling is the way he’s still spouting the foolish free-association rubbish he tended to spout even as the plan goes past the point of no return, and the way even after it’s done neither we nor he are left entirely certain that what he’s done is even the right thing let alone heroic. It is perhaps worth noting that I thought Tennant’s interpretation was moving distinctly in the McCoy direction in the Christmas special, what with the charming showmanship, followed by the sudden slightly inhuman coldness towards and effortless manipulation of a former ally who’d behaved badly enough to deserve it, which of course would be absolutely fine by me, but I think we’ve yet to see any more of that so far.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:18 / 26.04.06
What about the Seventh Doctor's manipulation of Ace in The Curse of Fenric. I came across the repeat by chance a few months ago and ended up watching pretty much the entire thing. It's the Bad Wolf of the Original Series.

Evil Scientist I'm wondering if this Royal werewolf thing is going to come up in Torchwood being as the Doctor mentions that the 21st century would be when the alien will regain conciousness.

I hope not. I know RTD is a gayer, but surely he knows how the female reproductive system works?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
19:29 / 26.04.06
I haven't seen Fenric since I was a wee Shiny Thing, but I do quite clearly recall that Fenric, Ghost Light and Survival stood out as the most shocking Shifty Bad Uncle McCoy really fucks with poor Aces head episodes. Thinking about it now I actually feel pretty bad for the young girl with definte issues who ended up adopting dodgy old McCoy as a father figure - not that the Doctor didn't genuinely care for Ace a great deal of course, and not that he wasn't a lovely father figure some of the time when he was making pretty speeches about the tea getting cold an all, but I think it could probably be argued that there was something bordering on abusive in the relationship, right down to the fact that as soon as he started being nice again Ace always forgave him whatever crappy thing he'd done to her.
 
 
raggedman
19:38 / 26.04.06
yep. Curse of Fenric is one of my all time faves. The bit where he has to break Ace's trust and belief in him because it's snarling up his plans and then it's all exploding and he has to get her out and she pushes him away...sob.

And i like Ghost Light because he loses his machivellian sheen... 'even I can't play this many games at once!'
Tom is the best but the weird kids love Mcoy. Once Bonnie Langford's out the picture.
 
 
Paolo
20:58 / 26.04.06
The last two McCoy seasons are good and its a massive pity that we never got the final season where the "Cartmel Master Plan" pays off. Script Editor Cartmel wanted to end the season that never got made with a story of the Doctor returning to his ancestoral house on Gallifrey. It would have been good and part of the plot was included in Ghostlight but without the Doctors backstory.

Thats why there were all the references to the Doctor meeting Rassilon and Omega etc building up to a story they never made. OF course RTD could bring some of this back if he brings back the Timelords. We know he refers to classic back story as he mentioned that the Timelords started the timewar with the Daleks in Genesis of the Daleks.

In a sense though its nice that his origins are still a mystery as I think that part of the magic of the programme. Long may it continue
 
 
some guy
22:00 / 26.04.06
I know RTD is a gayer, but surely he knows how the female reproductive system works?

Doesn't the Doctor imply she bites her (already born) children? In other words passing it on the same way she received it?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
04:27 / 27.04.06
I assume that's what it must mean and I think that's probably kind of indicative of a problem with RTD's scripting, like with why the monks dissapeared from outside we have to assume. Now in general I enjoy a story one has to engage with a think about to entirely understand and I think Bad Wolf and the Long Game worked on that level, but however I think the way in which one has to work things out in some of RTD's work is far less clever and more no-prize type plot holes and that strikes me as a little sloppy. Hopefully though all of this will be properly explained towards the end of the series in a way that fits together brilliantly and makes my comments here both stupid and wrong.

As an aside I really don't remember this as well as I remember much of the details of the McCoy period, but wasn't there an arc that had a fair bit to do with Fenris, Cybermen and Queen Victoria somewhere during his period? If that's the case then I guess given the elements we know are in the mix for this series then it really is quite plausible that RTD could be picking up on that stuff at least to a degree, and wouldn't that be dandy?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:52 / 27.04.06
Not Queen Victoria, but before the Doctor met her, Fenris created a timestorm that took Ace from 1980s Perivale, London to Iceworld. Fenris then somehow influenced the events of Silver Nemesis though, other than a 'chess set in Lady Peinfort's study', it's not clear how or to what effect, except to perhaps make the Doctor aware that it's time to deal with him.

Paolo The last two McCoy seasons are good and its a massive pity that we never got the final season where the "Cartmel Master Plan" pays off. Script Editor Cartmel wanted to end the season that never got made with a story of the Doctor returning to his ancestoral house on Gallifrey. It would have been good and part of the plot was included in Ghostlight but without the Doctors backstory.

That was actually how Ghost Light started out, as 'Lungbarrow', but was turned down because it was felt to ruin the mystery of who is the doctor, so Mark Gatiss turned it into 'Ghost Light' instead. He actually wrote it several years afterwards as one of the BBC's 'New Adventures'.

Thats why there were all the references to the Doctor meeting Rassilon and Omega etc building up to a story they never made.

Only in the TV novels and New Adventures.

We know he refers to classic back story as he mentioned that the Timelords started the timewar with the Daleks in Genesis of the Daleks.

And the Doctor destroyed their planet in 'Remembrance of the Daleks', which probably annoyed them a bit.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:46 / 27.04.06
Yeah, it's worth re-iterating that anyone who liked the mean streak of McCoy's Doctor, his long-term plans and the ethical dubiousness of his relationship with Ace should definitely check out some of the early New Adventures novels, which are all about this. Pity those books went on for quite so long, though, as the effect was diluted by repetition and frankly terrible ideas like Ace's time-travelling motorbike.
 
 
Paolo
08:36 / 27.04.06
Lungbarrow itself was quite a good read and people can read it for free here. This is supposed to be what the final McCoy story would have been and the book sets the scene for the beginning of the Paul McGann movie with the Doctor heading for Skaro to pick up the masters remains.

Thats why there were all the references to the Doctor meeting Rassilon and Omega etc building up to a story they never made.

Only in the TV novels and New Adventures.

My memory may be dodgy but I thought there were a couple of subtle references in the TV series. One in Remembrance of the Daleks regarding the prototype of the hand of Omega - The dodctor made a reference to having trouble with it. He also mentioned being the guardian of the legacy of Rassilon and being President elect of the Timelords.

There was also one in silver Nemesis regarding the creation of the Nemesis. The conversation went something like:

Ace: Who made the Silver Nemesis
Doctor: Rassilon
Ace: And....
Doctor: Omega
Ace: And....

The doctor then changed the subject. So not an explicit admittal but I would say certainly a hint.

And the Doctor destroyed their planet in 'Remembrance of the Daleks', which probably annoyed them a bit.

I would be annoyed too if I was a dalek Its interesting that the doctor was involved in all three known events in the time war - Sent to zap them in Genesis; Destroying Skaro in Remembrance and the events mentioned in Christopher Ecclestone's run.

Am certainly looking forward to see what happens with David Tennant. He seems to be playing it on just the right side of balmy. I like the comments here that he might be heading for a fall however
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:02 / 27.04.06
Who fu go!

Paolo Thats why there were all the references to the Doctor meeting Rassilon and Omega etc building up to a story they never made.

Only in the TV novels and New Adventures.

My memory may be dodgy but I thought there were a couple of subtle references in the TV series. One in Remembrance of the Daleks regarding the prototype of the hand of Omega - The dodctor made a reference to having trouble with it. He also mentioned being the guardian of the legacy of Rassilon and being President elect of the Timelords.

He meets Omega in The Three Doctors and Arc of Infinity and gives no hint of having met him before, he is considered, IIRC, a figure from Gallifrey's distant past. He meets Rassilon in The Five Doctors, again neither give any hint of having met previously. You're pulling all your evidence from the New Adventures and the Virgin New Adventures at that, I think they are like the Star Wars Extended Universe, Not cannon and no relevence to whats on TV, which came before anyway. The Presidential thing is just his office (he wasn't still President anyway, after the events of Trial of a Time-Lord anyway). It would be like saying George Dubya is a direct descendent of George Washington, he just holds the same office.

There was also one in silver Nemesis regarding the creation of the Nemesis. The conversation went something like:

Ace: Who made the Silver Silver
Doctor: Rassilon
Ace: And....
Doctor: Omega
Ace: And....

The doctor then changed the subject. So not an explicit admittal but I would say certainly a hint.

Not on TV so... I see where you are going but none of this stuff has any hold on anything RTD choses to write. In the unlikely event of Time Lord history coming up he does not need to stick to stuff which was never on TV.

And the Doctor destroyed their planet in 'Remembrance of the Daleks', which probably annoyed them a bit.

I would be annoyed too if I was a dalek Its interesting that the doctor was involved in all three known events in the time war - Sent to zap them in Genesis; Destroying Skaro in Remembrance and the events mentioned in Christopher Ecclestone's run.

Well, we don't know exactly what he did in the Time War but yes, given his propensity for landing in the thick of things it was something big.

Am certainly looking forward to see what happens with David Tennant. He seems to be playing it on just the right side of balmy. I like the comments here that he might be heading for a fall however

Re-watching episode two I can see where some people are irritated by David Tennant, Seeing as RTD has said that his personality is the same as Ecclestone's without the angst, which I think is a shame, as it seems that the angst is the only thing that gave Doctor Nine depth. At the moment Doctor Ten is coming off as shallow and without much substance.
 
 
Paolo
09:18 / 27.04.06
Thats a very good point about the meetings with Omega and Rassilon in the Three Doctors and the Five Doctors and does sort of blow me out of the water The new adventures did sort of come out with a explaination to all this but as you say, its not canon and not where RTD is taking the show.

I have quite enjoyed both episodes so far of the current series although so far we have had only two stories both written by RTD himself. It would be good to see what the other script writers make of him.
 
 
■
09:41 / 27.04.06
Thats a very good point about the meetings with Omega and Rassilon in the Three Doctors and the Five Doctors and does sort of blow me out of the water

Well, not really. Don't forget that Who has the ultimate in retconning in that something that happened in the past could still be in the future. Somewhere between Five Doctors and McCoy, he could have found out that a future regeneration had worked with Omega and Rassilon. They did something similar with the Valeyard...
Isn't there a bit in Dalek where he says he destroyed both the Daleks AND the Time Lords?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:19 / 27.04.06
Lady: Not on TV so...

Um, 'Silver Nemesis' was on TV.

cube: I think it's pretty clearly implied that the Time Lords were 'collateral damage' of what the Doctor did to stop the Daleks. He's faced with exactly the same choice in 'Parting Of The Ways': should he use a weapon that will destroy the Daleks and save the rest of time and space from them, but in the process kill the population of Earth? And second time around, he can't do it.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:51 / 27.04.06
There was plenty of subtext running around in the McCoy years about the Doctor being something other than your basic rogue Time Lord.

The line from "Rememberance..." was from a discussion between Ace and the Doctor about the history of the Hand of Omega.

Doctor: "...and didn't we have trouble with the prototype?"

Ace: "We?"

Doctor: "They."

In addition to the stuff about the creation of validium in Silver Nemesis there was also Lady Painforte's attempts to blackmail the Doctor by revealing his secrets to Ace and the Cybermen.

"Shall I tell them of Galifrey? Tell them of the old times? The time of chaos?"

Once Bonnie Langford's out the picture.

Paradise Towers though. That one brought back all the chills of my younger viewing days. Endless corridors filled with horrible Cleaners and cannibalistic OAPs.
 
 
Saveloy
11:48 / 27.04.06
Lady:

"He meets Omega in The Three Doctors and Arc of Infinity and gives no hint of having met him before, he is considered, IIRC, a figure from Gallifrey's distant past."

Yeah, he's the engineer chap who sorted out the unlimited power source that the time lords required to travel through time. He kicked off the whole time lord thing, but knacked himself up in the process, which made him cross.

I'm only mentioning this because my son has *forced* me to watch 'The Three Doctors' 289 times, and I'd like to feel there was some master plan behind it all.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:58 / 27.04.06
Flyboy For Mayor Lady: Not on TV so...

Um, 'Silver Nemesis' was on TV.

Not the bit that he was referring to, which was only on the special extended video. Ah, the days when having scenes added that weren't seen on the TV was something so new as to be almost unheard of!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:14 / 27.04.06
It still confuses me even now, clearly!
 
 
Cat Chant
12:26 / 27.04.06
Tennant’s interpretation was moving distinctly in the McCoy direction

Yeah, I miss Christopher Eccleston too.
 
 
Paolo
12:27 / 27.04.06
Ah. Thanks for clearing that up Lady. I didnt think that the DVD's contained extra footage.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:55 / 27.04.06
The 'something extra' and the mystery about the Doctor circa the late Eighties was, supposedly, that the Doctor was God, come down to check his creation. I was annoyed when I found this out, especially as the editor at the time admitted they'd never be able to get away with saying that. In the TV movie this became, instead, that the Doctor was half-human. Which has been forgotten since, on the grounds that it is obviously 'pish'. (Although the TARDIS interior in the movie was scrummy, possibly even nicer than the current set)
 
 
sleazenation
15:05 / 27.04.06
It seems like they were drowning in bad ideas in the early 90s...

Hasn't the Doctor pretty much always been a secular humanist?
 
  

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