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Doctor Who: Season 2 UK

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:08 / 07.05.06
Well yes, I have wondered this season if I'm just being an evil queerterosexual who wouldn't be complaining as much if the Doctor had been crushing on a young prince. I'd like to think I'd be exactly the same and it's the fact that, except for last week and the stuff about Sarah-Jane and his relationship with Rose the, production team are stubbornly refusing to give this new Doctor any real depth. I don't know, are we supposed to be watching this going "Ah, do you see? The Doctor's quips are to hide the fact that his secret, bearded face is crying, and his heart is breaking?" because if we are I don't think either the scripts or Tennant's acting are giving us enough for that.
 
 
uncle retrospective
10:24 / 07.05.06
I have to say that I'm loving the new Dr Who, I missed almost all of last season because my job but now I get my weekly Who goodness. I loved this week, the creepy ticking monster under the bed was fantastic, if I was 10 I'd be behind the sofa. (Yes, I was one of those kids who watched from behind the sofa) the mind meld was weird, I'd never seen the Doctor do that before but the door opens both ways was very strange. I think they're building the Doctor up for a very nasty fall. Is this the last season Billie is going to be in? Cause if it is....
Other things I loved, "He told us not to look". Brilliant!
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:51 / 07.05.06
Call me a bitter old fart, but some reason for Reinette and the Doctor to be attracted to one another would have been nice.

He's the mysterious cute guy who saved her from a clockwork automaton. She's one of the most accomplished women of her time. Doesn't seem that odd. Seemed to be very much fanboy attraction on the part of the Doctor initially ("I just snogged Madam Pompadour!").

Strange how Rose was more miffed about Mickey coming with them than the Doctor hanging out with a beautiful lady...

Same thing as last week, she was happy with the idea of Sarah Jane coming along.

Nice to see she didn't continue pouting into this episode. Mickey and her had some nice interplay going on, especially grabbing the fire-extinguishers and running off to explore the ship.

"Oh look, it's The Oncoming Storm."

Cybermen next week! In some kind of V For Vendetta alternate London. Tee hee!
 
 
Axolotl
12:07 / 07.05.06
I'm not sure why but I really enjoyed this episode. I was quite drunk, so my critical facilities my have been a bit weak but I thought it was the best episode so far this season. The Doctor's half-arsed attempt to bring Mme Pompadour seemed to leap out of nowhere - after all I'm guessing he's met lots of vibrant attractive people over the years but doesn't invite them all to join him - but overall I thought this was ace.
I'm really looking forward to next week's episode as in my opinion any parallel universe with zepellins rules.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:34 / 07.05.06
I have wondered this season if I'm just being an evil queerterosexual who wouldn't be complaining as much if the Doctor had been crushing on a young prince.

I don't think that would be evil, myself: one of the things I liked about the relative asexuality of Doctor Who (and most other great British SF telly) was that it let you think about the complexities of his relationships without being grativationally sucked back to that 'are-they-or-aren't-they' question - you could decide for yourself whether they were or weren't, and then get on with thinking about the particularities of the relationship, rather than always being told that it mattered whether the Doctor was having sex with someone or not. Um... So I think the Rose/Captain Jack three-way relationship just walked that line very successfully, hinting at the possibility of all sorts of shenanigans - not denying the potential queerness or the potential straightness of the situation, but also not hinting that there was a single answer which was being titillatingly withheld. So I think my grump about the overt het is twofold - firstly that it's a bit more coy and a bit less interesting than the way the question was handled in the last season, and second that as it becomes more overt, it becomes more het. Which to me is just a bit of a cop-out: if you're going to have a more-or-less-canonically bisexual Doctor, and you want to explore his romantic/sexual side, it's just annoying that the het can be so much more explicit.

I don't know if I'm articulating this very well. I will think on it more.
 
 
Lama glama
12:47 / 07.05.06
A lot of people here seem to be complaining that the Doctor and the Madame seemed to fall in love almost instantly. Don't forget that they took a lengthy wander in each other's deepest and most personal memories. Reinette experienced some of the loneliest parts of the Doctor's life and perhaps fell for him at that point. The same can be said for the Doctor, having explored a lot of her past through the mind-meld and having witnessed some of her (I suppose) mental anguish:
"You've had some cowboys in here.."

There's probably more basis for Reinette to be in love (infatuated?) with the Doctor than vice versa. When the Doctor was following her through the gardens of Versaille, she probably caught a glimpse of him when she turned around. She probably thinks that the Doctor was following her and protecting her for most of her life. It could even be argued that the Doctor was a bigger influence on Reinette and formed a more meaningful relationship with her, than he has with Rose.

Deva, when you say that the Doctor is canonically bi, is the only evidence for this his flirtations with Cap'n Jack?
 
 
sleazenation
13:25 / 07.05.06
Have people listened to the podcast? There was part of Moffat that apparently wanted Rennet to join the Tardis crew so he could explore, as he put it 'how the doctor doesn't quite get girls' which I took to mean, interpersonal relationships...

I could also see a fair arguement in this episode to claim that the Doctor is quite ployamerous, but perhaps still in quite in a naieve way...
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
13:55 / 07.05.06
Just to add some things... I thought some people might find this quote from Moffat, from this weeks Radio Times, interesting...

"I think that his asexual nature was perhaps read in to the series by its more asexual fans. If you look at the old show, that's not true. At some stage the Doctor had a wife and a family, because he's got a granddaughter. He likes everything: he drinks, he eats, why wouldn't he date?"

I don't necessarily agree with that, but nor do I think that's how the specific episode was/or should be read. Because as for being pulled in to an "are-they-or-aren't-they" question, well, I've not really felt that. Except for, "they aren't", and a little bit of playing around with people's expectations. Episode 1 "oh no a kiss!", but then it's not really even Rose anyway, I almost feel like it was made to be a trailer moment to worry people... Madame Du Pomp, well, I think she might just kiss a handsome stranger who she imagines as an angel looking over her, and who would say no? I don't think we're about to see the Doctor wake up in his Tardis bed with company, or see any shirt ripping soft focus or the like.

And also, I thought in the episode itself it was more... well, more like a romantic friendship. I didn't think it was particularly sexual (except in the miiind). Great minds, etc, an equal for the Doctor. Like Rose. Except she was clearly worried this woman was, y'know, better than her. And I think that's where they're going with these stories - setting up Rose leaving/getting left behind. I think they're going to use women to make that comparison explicit (and obvious), as it were. I don't know, obviously, but it's just a feeling.

I thought the real romance was in being on a spaceship with all these time windows in to a historical France! And a horse! I mean, c'mon... I don't think you'd get that sort of unique combination with anything other than Who, and another show would have been all about how evil the Doctor is for liasing with another lady (because all relationships = sex) when Rose is hanging around.

Oh, and to answer a question from earlier in the thread, from the Times and various other places no doubt...

"Asked about the possibility of a female Doctor materialising for a future series, Davies said: “I’d do it, I wouldn’t blink.”

So if you see him blinking...
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
15:25 / 07.05.06
I actually find the opposite ideas of the Doctor being either asexual or incredibly polyamorous both totally fine. My really enjoying last nights episode despite itself aside it’s the idea of the Doctor being in love and consequently valuing some innocents considerably more than others that’s a bit dodgy as far as I’m concerned. I don’t necessarily begrudge him the odd snog or even a bit of sex I suppose, but in my world the Doctor is meant to care deeply about everyone (except the bad guys of course) and if he’s mooning about after specific individuals that seems to take the edge off of the kind of generalised love of lifekind he ought to have.

Although I’d also note that Tennant seems to me to be considerably less into Rose than Ecclestone was, which I view as being a very good thing. He’s dropped his jealousy of Mickey, and gone running after two other women, as well as taking on Mickey as new companion. It’s just kind of a shame that their illustrating that this Doctor doesn’t necessarily place Rose on quite the same pedestal his predecessor did by depicting him chasing more women. It would be hard or impossible I guess for the writers to put anything more than very low level flirting in between the Doctor and other men, but they’ve proved that they can get away with it up to a point with Captain Jack, and I can’t help but think that even injecting a little low level man on man flirtation might help to balance the scales up a bit and make Tennant’s Doctor seem like less irritating over heterosexual.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:47 / 07.05.06
Interesting, because I'd say more the opposite, though perhaps it's a misreading the whole giggly aspect to Tennant and Piper.

I was rather annoyed with Moffat's tone in that whole article. One could equally argue that we have absolutely no proof that Time Lords organised their relationships and families in the same way as humans, so perhaps Susan was not biologically related to the Doctor, what does biology mean for Time Lords, when you can change your biology? When they meet in Five Doctors the first Doctor almost doesn't recognise Susan, saying something like "It's Susan isn't it?", something odd for a grandfather to say. So Moffat can stuff that. He could have also pointed to Delta and the Bannermen, where the Seventh Doctor advises the male Romeo character on how relationships rarely work, which shows he has experience. In 'Doctor Who Confidential' the guy from DWM says that fans are really good at explaining away things they don't like. I'm going to take the simpler path of pretending the romance didn't happen, which is a shame because I love the clockwork robots and the rest of the storyline is okay.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:34 / 07.05.06
when you say that the Doctor is canonically bi, is the only evidence for this his flirtations with Cap'n Jack?

As far as I know, yes - Doctor/Jack is the only more-or-less canonical boy-on-boy flirtation.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:48 / 07.05.06
Hmm. Thinking about your formulation a bit harder, though, is getting me a little closer to being able to formulate what I meant - the point about the Doctor being more-or-less canonically bisexual at the end of last season* wasn't really about the 'evidence' of his same-sex attraction being added to his pre-existing opposite-sex attraction, it was about the way that the Doctor, Rose and Captain Jack all interacted in a more-or-less sexualized, or potentially sexual, or presexual, or flirtatious, way. In fact Nine seemed pretty much asexual to me until that three-way 'dance' began: the possibility of any sort of specifically romantic or sexual relationship was originally raised in this terribly delicately balanced bisexual representation. And it was particularly important to me because it was so symmetrical: usually it's just taken for granted, especially on children's TV programmes, that a certain level of explicit heterosexuality is acceptable, and the same level of explicit homosexuality is controversial, difficult, calls attention to itself, calls for explanation. I loved that symmetry, because it meant - I felt - that people who wanted to see Doctor/Rose and not Captain/Jack would, for once, be prompted to ask themselves why they saw heterosexual attraction as self-evident and homosexual attraction as impossible.**

That's been lost in this season: heterosexual attraction, metaphors, explanations, flirtations, subtexts and tensions have cosily installed themselves in the space that was opened by the bisexual Doctor, and all the homosexual bits of representation have gone back into their accustomed silence. And that makes me sad.

*Of course it's always possible that Ten might be a bit less inclined towards the gentlemen than Eccleston was - different regenerations seem to have had differing interpersonal styles, and gender attraction might be part of that.

**Cf Alexander Doty, in his book Making Things Perfectly Queer, on how gay or queer readings are delegitimized by being called 'alternative', 'subtextual' or 'sub-cultural', whereas straight readings - some of which are actually having to do an awful lot of work to recuperate something as uncomplicatedly heterosexual - are always seen as the 'obvious' (supertextual?) meaning.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:28 / 07.05.06
The Shooty Llama Thing A lot of people here seem to be complaining that the Doctor and the Madame seemed to fall in love almost instantly. Don't forget that they took a lengthy wander in each other's deepest and most personal memories.

AFTER they kiss. A long time AFTER they kiss. Ha! In your face space coyote!
 
 
Blake Head
18:58 / 07.05.06
I really, really loved this episode. I hadn’t really been looking forward to another historical romp, and so far any significant investigation of the Doctor’s nature has felt limited by the episodic nature of the show. But this was great! Self-contained, I thought the plot was interesting and well-paced, the clockwork monsters creepy, explored time travel in an interesting (if uncritical) way for a change, great dialogue, the period stuff also, the Doctor was great again, there was some hot spectacle fetish action, and even if it was all nonsense it was particularly successful Doctor Who absurdity, it had (as Suedey pointed out) a spaceship powered by human organs that with the days of one of the most vital women in history spread throughout it, who the Doctor rescues as a literal white knight on a charger crashing through the doors of time, appallingly iconic bunk but – what’s on earth’s not to love?

The mind meld thing didn’t bother me at all, I get the feeling they’re trying to expand on lots of little different things the Doctor can do and that make him different, and in this instance I think they handled it well. Sort of relatedly, I know that Rose and Mickey used them, but did anyone else wonder if it was only the Doctor who could open the “magic doors” in time? There do seem to be situations where the Doctor does unseen (magical?) things in an offhand manner which keeps plots “ticking” (sorry) while leaving a lot of scope for the Doctor doing super-complex Time Lord stuff – with the added benefit that it avoids turning him into a smirking, over super-science-hero.

Not to cause another hetero-panic type situation, but I’d be wary of attributing “canonically” bisexual, both in terms of the evidence so far presented, and in the sense of bi as being an attraction equally split across genders. Given threads out and about just now, it might be better to consider that the Doctor *maybe* is attracted to both sexes but one more than the other. I don’t think that it could be argued that there’s anything wrong with that, and that it’s rather dangerous to be wary of the specificities of the presentation of any relationship, heterosexual or homosexual. That said, certainly in my imagination the Doctor has lived long enough and, theoretically, experienced enough different cultures, to love across genders, races and species (and needless to say time), but maybe he has certain moods or phases like anyone else [and of course, regenerations, as Deva points out; much of the above written before she had revisited her original post], or his sexuality is constructed on entirely different terms? That the presentation of (reasonably) explicit het-ness reinforces heterosexual normativity may be the case, but I don’t think it follows that the expression of unambiguous sexual dynamics is always inappropriate or oppressive. I agree that the presentation of sexuality can be more interesting when there lies the potential to read it in multiple ways, and by implication when other readings challenge more orthodox presentations, but I don’t believe, at the moment, there’s more than circumstantial evidence to suggest that a more obvious, reductive state of affairs is the case – though certainly it will be interesting to see how that develops over the season.

and if he’s mooning about after specific individuals that seems to take the edge off of the kind of generalised love of lifekind he ought to have.

I don’t disagree, but surely the poor bloke is able to express that in particular sometimes right? I really loved, btw, how impressed he was with the clockwork creatures – if I remember right he said they were beautiful, no?

My only slight, slight, criticism of this episode would be how all the “lonely angel” stuff seems to be stacking up, and how designed it seems to appeal to the ideas awkward, shy, insular sci-fi nerd-boys* have about themselves, but overall, as I said, I loved this episode, it worked for me even more than the last one, and I can’t wait for the Cybermen!

*Where, admittedly, I am one, so I might be projecting.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:18 / 07.05.06
Well, the first kiss of the season was Cassandra giving it some because she'd been locked up in a flat sheet of skin for hundreds of years and fancied a bit of the first pair of lips she got the opportunity to wrap herself around. She's shallow. This was only the second snog, with somebody who the Doctor clearly had a massive intellectual attraction towards as well as the physical one. The Sarah Jane stuff was about close, loving partnerships in general - the respective genders of the participants was, on the whole, something of a non-issue.

It's a bit early to be moaning about the series going all het-centric on us just yet.

Also: as we've already had pointed out a few times, Moffatt wrote Coupling. You'll have to excuse me if I'm not knocked sideways by the revelation that he doesn't really get anything other than het behaviour.

Also also: like Deva says, different Doctor. This one seems to have a bit of a dashing hero thing going on, which is some distance away from where our previous hero was coming from.

Main problem with this episode = painfully compacted script. I wonder if Moffatt was expecting to be given two episodes to spread this out over and then discovered, late in the day, that he was being restricted to one. There certainly seemed to be quite a lot of bits where the audience was presumed to understand stuff that hadn't been explained very well, if at all, and lots of other scenes that appeared to start halfway through.

That was a big issue for me for the first half of the ep, but by the end of it I was starting to think that maybe it suited the story rather well. It's made explicit at one point, in fact - "my life stuck together like the pages of a book, to be flipped through at will" or something like that.

Baddies looked great with their masks off, but provided no genuine sense of fear or threat. Missed opportunity, probably because the focus of the ep was less on what was happening externally as what was going on in the heads of its two leads.

At the end, I loved it. Great chunks of it were nonsensical and clumsy - every single scene inside the spaceship was a bit shit, I thought, with the 'Doctor pretends to be drunk' one being a clanger of the highest rank - but, again, that was mainly the external stuff.

I have a great dislike for this "we can't use the TARDIS, because it's now part of events" bollocks, however, and hope that it's demonstrated fairly soon that this is just a poor excuse on the Doctor's part, an attempt to cover up the fact that, actually, he has very little control over where and when the TARDIS goes. Otehrwise, it doesn't bear up to even the tiniest amount of scrutiny.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:18 / 07.05.06
I feel like this episode lacked emotional oomph. It wasn't the relationship that I necessarily had a problem with. It was the simpering, there didn't seem to be emotional exploration... the Doctor's lonely but it's not about him, it's about a woman from the 18th century. The Doctor's mind melded with her but we don't see any of the things they describe, we're not let into the experience, it passes in 30 seconds quite inconsequentially for the viewer. I don't like hints, I want that loneliness to be directed on to the screen and towards us rather than eluded too. I want to know the loneliness that she sees in him. They're building a new personality for the Doctor but it's as if the team who make the show are so aware of it already that they're excluding us from it. The clockwork creatures should have been a little more sinister. They were a fantastic idea washed out by an intent focus on a character who existed for one episode.

This Doctor seems to be all about humanising an alien and I'm not enjoying that. I like my Doctor to be a Timelord, expressed through humour but with a sinister underbelly. He can fall in love but if he does I still want to see the darker side of his personality. If he must go around kissing women then must they lose the sense of horror at a bodypart being locked into the mechanism of a ship while they do that?

And most importantly can't they cut the background music that's constantly playing during vital scenes? Every single episode a scene that I'd like to focus on and get lost in is interrupted by a load of bloody twiddling in the background. Why is it so loud?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:08 / 07.05.06
Good point about the music. Particularly true of the New Earth episode but it was happening again during Girl in the Fireplace.

I thought last week's, with Sarah Jane, showed a lot of emotional intelligence and maturity. This week's was a fun romp, with some quixotic plot twists and a fair smothering of sentimentality, but the liaison between Madame de Pompadour and the Doctor, including the "snog", seemed designed to convince only pre teens. But, it is theoretically a children's show, I guess.
 
 
Billuccho!
21:20 / 07.05.06
Jesus, if this is a kids' show, then Britain's kids are far better off than the USA's. But then, look at the state of American television these days...

Anyway. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, I have seen this episode from across the pond. Admittedly, it's only the thirteenth episode of Doctor Who I've ever seen, but I thought it was quite excellent, loaded with clever bits and funny bits and heroic bits.

The space-age clockwork robot dudes were, as the Doctor put it, beautiful. Doesn't necessarily make sense or comply to realism, but who cares? So yeah, so they move totally mechanically, except when they want to zip out from under beds all spookily. That's fine. They were suitably creepy, even if they're a bit crap at being threatening.

The love story didn't necessarily bother me either, but I'm not up on my Who history. Seemed perfectly reasonable. She's clearly portrayed as a sexual being, and he's got a great intellectual and historical appreciation of her. Works fine.

The bit where he comes dashing in on the horse? My God. It was great. Really, c'mon, who couldn't love that? Yeah, so he's a dumbass for leaving her behind the fireplace, but that's the Doctor for you, I guess.

Basically, the episode was a microcosm of the "you can spend your whole life with me, but I can't with you" theme from last week. Yes, they're building up the Lonely God thing, surely to pay off later.

This and "School Reunion" have been the best episodes of Who I've seen yet. Hopefully it's going to keep getting better.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:34 / 07.05.06
Yeah, the horse bursting through the mirror was the business.

Also liked all the shots of Rose looking pensive and melancholy as the Doctor dallied with Madame.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:37 / 07.05.06
Just found this gem on the BBC board...

After having to suffer the blatant 'Captain Jack et al' gay propoganda in the first new series of Dr Who I am very disappointed that the second series is following the same trend. The Doctor's camp 'dance' in the first episode was totally unnecessary, and more seriously, notice how the Doctor accuses one of the characters in tonights episode of having fun with the athletic bald 'monks' whilst his wife was away. This programme is family entertainment and should not be used to distribute propaganda for the gay lobby. Can someone from within the BBC forward this to the Director General and ask when Russell T Davies is going to be sacked, Dr Who is family entertainment and NOT 'Queer as folk'!

From a very disappointed and worried parent!


Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but...
 
 
Ganesh
21:54 / 07.05.06
Hmm, I'm quite impressed that this concerned parent is picking up such subtle subtexts as the bald, athletic, scarequotey "monks"...
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:38 / 08.05.06
The Doctor's camp 'dance' in the first episode was totally unnecessary, and more seriously

Umm, isn't Doctor Who on after Strictly Come Dancing? Y'know, if camp dancing is a major concern?
 
 
Cat Chant
10:35 / 08.05.06
It's a bit early to be moaning about the series going all het-centric on us just yet.

Mostly I agree*, but I do think two tongue-kisses in four episodes is a huge leap from the last season (not to mention from OldWho - did any pre-Eccleston Doctor** ever kiss anyone?) and represents a worrying trend. Though I realize all the data isn't in yet, and we might end up with two tongue-kisses over thirteen episodes, which would be acceptable.

In reply to Blake Head's concern about 'canonically bisexual' and Dupre's comment about gender being a non-issue with Sarah Jane: I agree that the Doctor isn't canonically anything, and in my second post above I tried to explain that I sort of meant that the text was bisexual, rather than the Doctor. It's not so much that the Rose-Jack interactions mean that we can now say with any certainty what the patterns of the Doctor's attraction are, in any one regeneration or across regenerations - but the way the text raised of the issue of sexuality tout court came out of a situation which was even-handed in its representation of same-sex and opposite-sex desire. I think that accounts for my reaction to Dupre's point. Yes, gender was irrelevant in the Doctor's relationship with Sarah Jane, as far as the Doctor and Sarah Jane were concerned - but there's still a politics of representation at work which mean that issues of love, trust, abandonment, jealousy etc are played out in a heterosexual framework/ through a set of specifically heterosexual metaphors ('the ex and the missus!'), asking bi and or queer-identified viewers, once again, to identify with that heterosexual framing.*** I liked the way the Doctor-Jack-Rose interaction asked people to identify with a different kind of framing to explore similar issues. That is, it's not that the Doctor used to be bi and now they've hetted him: it's more that I felt the politics of representation were being resisted and shifted more subtly and successfully in the last season.

Moffatt wrote Coupling. You'll have to excuse me if I'm not knocked sideways by the revelation that he doesn't really get anything other than het behaviour.

Steven Moffat referred to himself as having a 'queeny moment' in Doctor Who Confidential - I assumed he was gay. More relevantly, though, he also wrote both 'The Empty Child' and 'The Doctor Dances', didn't he? Which are exactly the episodes I'm comparing 'The Girl in the Fireplace' to.

*It's not a huge concern for me, I don't think: but one of the problems with the asymmetry of representation (het = obvious, homo = subtext) is that it just takes longer to explain worries about heterocentrism, so they start taking up slightly disproportionate space.

**Not counting Paul McGann, obviously.

***Higher-snark, more concise version: if gender's so irrelevant, why aren't these interrelated issues ever being played out in the Doctor's relationship to a boy? He remembers Sarah Jane for umpty years, but Captain Jack's tragic self-sacrifice five minutes ago doesn't leave a trace?
 
 
Cat Chant
10:44 / 08.05.06
Oh, hey, and I should also add a disclaimer that I often leave out, which is that what I'm doing is trying to explain my reaction to the new season so far, not trying to imply that my investment in the treatment of sexuality in Doctor Who is the 'right' one and everyone who disagrees is an eval homophobe/biphobe who seeks only to reinforce the heterosexual hegemony. I hope I'm not coming across that way. I just enjoy trying to account for my reactions, and hearing other people account for theirs, in ways which often transform the way I see something.

And also I should say, in conclusion, that I agree with everything Blake Head said in that post up there, though I must say I'm seeing the writers' fanboy investment much more in the companions - and, in this case, in Madame de Pompadour, who looked so like a Mary-Sue for Moffatt to me. I found it hugely endearing and enjoyable as a sort of narrative about growing up in Doctor Who fandom: 'The Doctor used to come into my bedroom [on the telly] at night when I was little and there would be scary monsters, but that was okay because the Doctor always got rid of them! And now I am all grown-up I get to kiss the Doctor! W00t!'
 
 
Lama glama
12:56 / 08.05.06
Lady of the Flowers: AFTER they kiss. A long time AFTER they kiss

Yeah, that's true. But then you're not necessarily in love with somebody after kissing them. It was the mutual mind fun that made them fall in love.

Back on the subject of a bisexual Doctor, it's early days yet, so you never know who he'll pick up on the Impossible Planet.
 
 
Lama glama
13:40 / 08.05.06
Tried reading that post on the Beeb's message board but apparently:

This posting has been temporarily hidden, because a member of our Moderation Team has referred it to the Hosts for a decision as to whether it contravenes the House rules in some way. We will do everything we can to ensure that a decision is made as quickly as possible.

Also, Stoatie, I wouldn't go reading the rest of the thread-it's not good for the heart.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
14:08 / 08.05.06


Watched "The Empty Child" episode twice this week. Possibly my favorite episode so far. While Captain Jack is attractive, I think he's a bit too full of himself for my taste. Anyway, it was very creepy. The tone of whatever it is repeatedly calling, "Mummy?", fair made my skin crawl. And seeing the surfacing sexual tension between the leads is very very interesting.



Sorry. As you were.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:20 / 08.05.06
Steven Moffat referred to himself as having a 'queeny moment' in Doctor Who Confidential - I assumed he was gay.

Mild threadrot

AFAIK he isn't. He mentions on the Coupling dvd commentary that the character of Steve is based around his own relationship with his wife. The Coupling wiki backs that up.

Threadrot ends
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:08 / 08.05.06
It's difficult to get my head round how what I think and how I feel about this episode. To summarise, I was quite annoyed by quite a lot of it at the time, yet in retrospect I find myself remembering mostly the good stuff, and I wonder whether on a second viewing I'd feel more charitable, or whether I'm just forgetting about the bad. On the one hand, I think it is true that the themes and ideas in this episode were much better conceived than they were executed, and so it carries that frustration that comes with watching something and thinking "with a few minor changes this could have been SO much better". On the other hand, I now find myself wondering whether it's a bit harsh to say "I wish they'd made all these things I read into the episode more obvious" - if I read them into it, then the work's done, in a sense, isn't it?

So, anyway...

I'm not bothered at all by the snogging - both kisses this season were initiated by someone other than the Doctor, and as has been said, in one case it was done because said person was being possessed by a baddie. I'd anticipated the Sarah-Jane episode being much worse in this respect, but it was handled very well - "the missus and the ex" is surely just Mickey not really having much of a clue, isn't it? (Having said which, ideally we'd see some kind of emotional bond develop between the Doctor and Mickey to illustrate the fact - I do agree that it's a bit crap that there isn't one.)

In the specific case of the Pompadour kiss, she initiates it and I suppose what might cause annoyance (in me and others) is how quickly he's bowled over by it, how keen he gets on her as a result, and how quickly. However rather than an attempt to humanise the Doctor, I wonder if this instead shows just how alien he is - it's almost that "what is this thing you humans call... kissing?" thing. He has this all these memories of people who've been and gone, but he's also relatively freshly minted, newly come into the world and so in a way he's very young. Big clue: he needs to be taught how to dance again (interestingly, he'd also forgotten last time round, hadn't he?).

That requires a bit of what "they" call fanwanking, and that was my biggest problem with the episode - that a lot of the things I liked about it best were underdeveloped, or made me think that maybe I was reaching.

Actually, maybe they weren't so much underdeveloped, as obscured by other stuff that was a bit rubbish. Like the wacky fairground music during what ought to have been a really creepy moment (human organs as parts of the ship).

The main thing I wanted to see emphasisd was how Last Temptation of the Doctor it was - live a normal life, settle down with a mortal woman, forget whatever greater purpose you might have, except you can't because hello, the woman is MORTAL. I have to confess that I did not like the horse, and especially did not like the Doctor riding to the rescue on the horse, and so I interpreted that as part of the path (or door) being show to the Doctor that he had to choose not to take in the end - go on, be an action hero, ride in and get the girl... Once he finds out when it is she dies, what's to stop him going back in the TARDIS and seeing her at some point in the years between his last visit and her death? The answer that works best to me seems to be that what makes him so sad and unable to do so is the realisation of just how mortal she is...

Seen like that, there was a nice thematic unity between the last episode and this - this is the second temptation he's had in two episodes, and they're both about similar things. I'll be quite happy if that's a recurring theme this season - not just "he's lonely, he's very lonely", which is being beaten into us with anvils, but specifically "because people die all the time and he can't bring them back, no matter how tempting that might be, because there would be awful consequences".

But, still - a lot of it didn't seem to be done that... well. The scene where Tennant does "drunk"? It was, well, it was bad.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:35 / 08.05.06
He remembers Sarah Jane for umpty years, but Captain Jack's tragic self-sacrifice five minutes ago doesn't leave a trace?

To be fair, he'd known Sarah Jane for aaaaages, and Captain Jack for a mere smattering of episodes- 45 minute ones, at that, none of your 4/6 x half-hour epics for him.

And they shared a dog. That does a lot for bonding.
 
 
Cat Chant
17:34 / 08.05.06
Fair points both, Stoats.
 
 
iamus
17:39 / 08.05.06
Basically, the episode was a microcosm of the "you can spend your whole life with me, but I can't with you" theme from last week.

and

The answer that works best to me seems to be that what makes him so sad and unable to do so is the realisation of just how mortal she is...

Yu-huh. It was the whole time lord/mortal process in fast-forward. People grow up, mature and then die in the blink of an eye for the Doctor. He can't hold onto anybody or anything save the Tardis. I think for Rose, this series (with the Sarah-Jane and the inclusion of Mickey) is about realising that her relationship with the Doctor is never going to be the huge romantic adventure she thought it was in series one. Not because the Doctor's playing away from home, but because they are totally physically and psychologically incompatible in the long run. She'll never be able to give him what he needs, and the same's true him to her.


Now comes gush, because I thought this episode was fan-fucking-tastic. Though it might be a bit too early to say for sure, I reckon this might be my favourite of either series so far. I have to say, I'm finding it a wee bit hard to be objective about this episode because my critical faculties seem to have disengaged with the main conceit of it. To me, the Doctor's side of the story is incidental as to why I enjoyed it.


Somebody you half-remember from your childhood who used to come in the night to destroy the monsters under your bed? Who dissapears for years at a time until they push through the fucking walls or sweep out from behind a tapestry at just the right moment to come to your rescue? Someone who always slips away when you open your eyes and the monsters dissapear, who you can never hold onto, but who lives just sideways and is always always watching out for you?

You know what that is?


That's pure, undiluted, impossible dream-logic romance for Who's sake!

I'm sorry, but if that doesn't sweep away any canonical humming and hawing to be recognised as The Greatest Thing EVAR!!!, then your inner 12 year-old is dead and that pasty-faced, fish-eyed, gray-suited imposter crouching there inside your skin has no buisness watching this show. So there.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:47 / 08.05.06
iamus- yes, yes, yessity-yes indeedy.

Thinking about this today, it occurred to me that (largely probably due to a combination of awakening hormones and the knowledge that Tom Baker and Lalla Ward were actually "an item"), I always kind of assumed as a kid that the Doctor and Romana WERE romantically entwined. Not sure when I stopped assuming that...

...but, while we're wildly speculating, isn't it possible that he's been having relations with all manner of companions- just off-screen? I mean, given that he's so idiosyncratic and standoffish in most incarnations, he certainly does display a lot of affection for them all- and considering they're usually busy fighting monsters and stuff when we actually see them...

...and being wild speculation, this is as applicable to Adric and Turlough as it is to Romana and Sarah-Jane. (Also K-9 and the "grand-daughter", but best not go there).
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
18:03 / 08.05.06
I think iamus' post is going to make me cry...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:40 / 08.05.06
Stoats: I always kind of assumed as a kid that the Doctor and Romana WERE romantically entwined.

You and me both. It's almost impossible to see them as anything else when you watch some of those shows now - it's inevitable that if you've got a couple of actors bumping naughties off-screen then there's going to be some of that coming across on-screen, but I'm sure the writers played to it. I mean, it's clearly there - they're totally flirting with each other a lot of the time.

Deva> You're absolutely right to point out that the relationship between the Doctor and Sarah Jane was framed, within the script, as a heterosexual one, but this was a fault of the writing rather than, I suppose, the central idea. That's a really vague way of avoiding and excusing the problem, I know, but it's how I approached the offending scenes in that episode. The saviour of that entire episode, imo, was Tennant.

I adored the episode overall, but without Tennant managing to come across as believably and naturally asexual - at least as far as his relationship with Sarah Jane was concerned and as far as he was concerned - it could have been a clunker. Sarah Jane was forced to spout lines comparing their partnership to that of a male/female sexual relationship, and that doesn't fit at all with anything we got to see in the Baker/Sladen years. There was always a lot of tension there, but it was alien/human tension, superiority and inferiority complexes playing off each other, never anything sexual. Doctor Four and companion never wanted to rub their boygirl bits together.

And it was never like a marriage. Not once. Not in the way that last episode's writer tried to put it across - it wasn't just that Mickey had that line either, Fly, but that both Rose and SJ were written, at points, to play up to that stereotype. That was potentially all very lumpen, forced writing. Again, though, saved whenever the camera moved away from Piper or Sladen and gave us Tennant. I can totally get down with the idea of the two female leads in that show getting jealously vibes off each other, but not "you stole my man" vibes. And Tennant saves that by making it obvious that his character neither understands nor cares what the big deal is, and probably isn't capable of understanding. His performance there = top hole. Everybody's performance there = top hole, but Tennant was able/allowed to work around the script they'd been given to work with.

Er. So, um, yeah, I agree with you to a large extent Deva. It was framed as an issue of het relationships and that was unnecessary and a mistake. I just don't think it damaged the episode or the series to the extent that it could have - cast and characters eventually came out of it brilliantly, and because Tennant kept it so locked down I didn't feel that it made the series particuarly het-orientated. Actually, scrub that - I didn't feel that it made the character particularly het-identifying, and the character *is* the series.

Incidentally, the few bits of Coupling I watched never gave me the impression that Moffatt has any great empathy with or understanding of a non-straight POV. It was all very "phwoar, lesbians" and "urgh, bumsex".
 
  

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