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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Doctor Who: Season 2 UK

  
  

Page: 123(4)56789... 40

 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:25 / 16.04.06
There was too much for a forty-five minute episode. Rather than have this nonsense about growing clones that then mysteriously turn out to be sentient, why not have them being the dispossessed, the Morlocks of the future? That would have been more sensible, it also gives a sensible reason for why the nurses don't do the obvious and cure them, why exactly do they need to maintain a huge underground warehouse of coffins of people with diseases? Even today there's computer modeling. So why not have some sort of life-force transferral business going on, for someone to be cured someone else has to die. It then gives a sensible reason for why Cassandra-as-Chip has to die.

Totally disagree with whoever thought Tennant wasn't a comedy actor. Look again at the one good scene from Christmas Invasion, when he comes out of the TARDIS on the Sycorax ship.
 
 
Lama glama
14:26 / 16.04.06
"This here's a fightin' hand," still raises a smile four months later.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:34 / 16.04.06
Maybe it's not 'something new', but something different that I think Dr Who does with its curvy silver cityscapes is having its characters sitting back and lying on the grass and wondering aloud at the amazingness of it all. They always keep a distance from all the silver cityscape/flying cars stuff. Dr Who looks and marvels, and not in an ILM, look–at-how-fucking-complex-we-can-make-this-shot sense. And that 'sitting back and marvelling' thing is something I've never got from the Star Wars universe, where it seems that every such city has to be either zooomed around or blown up or else just slips by in the background while people are droning on about trade agreements. So while you’re bored by the very idea of a futuristic silvery megacity, I’d say this Dr Who makes such things interesting and alive again, in part because it *doesn’t* show us any details with super-expensive special effects.

It's true that they didn't treat the city in the same way as a big-budget CGI film would have - through necessity or by making an interesting virtue out of that necessity. So, you're right, an SF movie wouldn't have the two characters sitting on the grass at a distance (because it wouldn't need to.)

But the look of that city was still very ho-hum to me. You're mistaken if you think I'm complaining that Doctor Who doesn't have the same effects budget as Star Wars. I'm disappointed by the design and the lack of invention behind the idea of New Earth. It's a nostalgic movement, so why are they nostalgic for some generic "futuristic" shiny-curves aesthetic? Why not 18th Century Europe or 12th Century Japan - why is it some standard skiffy 22nd century New York (-hybrid Dubai) they're trying to recreate? If this is New New York, why couldn't they have been trying to recreate York, a future approximation of an English walled cathedral city, just so it'd look a bit more interesting and have a few more ideas behind it?

I would have been happier with that scene if the script and acting had worked better for me too, but the "new new new new York", "that was our first date... we 'ad chips!" banter was busting my twee-ometer already so I wasn't feeling charitable.


But it's different strokes. Obviously I'm just easily pleased if I'm won over by a well-pitched sense of wonderment, but I'm still not sure what the comparison is worth. Dr Who is not Star Wars, is not trying to be Star Wars, and Star Wars fans - experts, even - aren’t impressed by the special effects in Dr Who. So what?

Again, you read me wrong if you think I'm saying Who should be Star Wars. I'd like Doctor Who to make up for its lack of CGI budget with ideas and invention.

As another example, the cat-nuns were totally wasted as a concept. There was no sense at all here that these characters were cats. Red Dwarf did a super-evolved cat far better. These were just women with prosthetics. Why couldn't they actually behave more like cats, and why couldn't there be a more developed notion of cat civilisation? What would it really be like if cats evolved into a more advanced form? Why would they act anything like nurses from 1950s England with furry faces?

I'm not asking the cats to look like an alien from Revenge of the Sith.

eta: the fact that two people on this thread have to celebrate the invention of "apple grass" is in my opinion a sign of barrel-scraping.
 
 
sleazenation
19:57 / 16.04.06
Miss Wonderstarr - I definitely agree that there were numerous weaknesses in the script - lots of things glossed over too quickly to be entirely clear - a mistaken emphasis on the new humans as diseased zombies rather than new humans. And I still don't think I entirely understand how they were all cured. But outside of that, I think there is a large amount that you need to let fly.

New x14 York's architecture could be influenced by any unseen period of earth architecture employed in over 5 billion years - it could also be based on half remembred scraps of old sci-fi films - remember how Cassandra and all the other aliens mistook a juke box for an iPod?

Equally, I'm not entirely sure if I know how humanoid cat nuns 5 billion years in the future should act. Would you have preferred them to be more attention seeking? Should one have run off in pursuit of a bird?
 
 
sleazenation
20:02 / 16.04.06
But, yeah - in addition the the staircases, I think Cassandra's lair was also the same corridor as used for the basement at Henricks in episode 1...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:16 / 16.04.06
I know I'm being kind of picky. But there's no harm in discussing these things.

New x14 York's architecture could be influenced by any unseen period of earth architecture employed in over 5 billion years - it could also be based on half remembred scraps of old sci-fi films - remember how Cassandra and all the other aliens mistook a juke box for an iPod?


I accept it's possible to find a logical reason (or a number of reasons) for a far-future civilisation looking like most 20th century science fiction. I just think it would have been more interesting if it didn't.


Equally, I'm not entirely sure if I know how humanoid cat nuns 5 billion years in the future should act. Would you have preferred them to be more attention seeking? Should one have run off in pursuit of a bird?

I would have preferred them to be less human. I mean, yes, it would have added something, however small, if they'd had a fetish for constantly washing. Again, I'm sure there are many reasons why a highly-evolved cat should act like a woman with a furry face. But it would have been more interesting to me if a little bit more thought had gone into how this creature might behave.

We're not talking realism here, I know.
 
 
Bed Head
21:35 / 16.04.06
Hmm, I don't think you’re being picky, so much as complaining that it wasn’t a completely different episode. You started off unfavourably comparing New Earth to various movies, and saying My point is that if you have a fraction of that budget, then firstly don't try to compete on those terms; but then claim you read me wrong if you think I'm saying Who should be Star Wars, when I was only trying to suggest that maybe it wasn’t "trying" to compete on terms. And I think if your twee-ometer has been burst by the two leads in the first five minutes, and you’re driven to focus on the background rather than the characters’ reaction to New New York, that’s a very early sign that you’re maybe not going to get what you want in this episode. But what do I know? What I like, you seem to find unbearably twee.

As for Red Dwarf did a super-evolved cat far better

...you’re being serious here?

Well. Why don’t we get to learn more about the super-evolved cat-people civilisation? One reason is because it’s a 45 minute, self-contained episode, man, and they're wanting to fit in those scenes that burst your twee-ometer, and all the jokes that fell flat as Cassandra's face for you, before anything else. I'd agree with all the criticisms that the pacing is a bit saggy, that in the final cut there's space to have had a little more about the cats, but still, I just don't think they were aiming to work up a fully-realised feline civilisation. And again, you’re leaping from the extreme judgement that the cat-nuns were totally wasted as a concept to seemingly simply wishing that there was something a bit more catty about them.

I’m kinda stunned that RedDwarf might be cited as an example of anything being done well, but okay. You’re right, there’s some truth in your comment that Red Dwarf is a TV Series that explored the concept of super-evolved cats in greater depth than New Earth did. But the cat in Red Dwarf was a main character, while New Earth wasn’t really about the cats, it was about the dopey body-swap humour and the vivisection thing. Again, if you’re not enjoying the jokes or the tweeness, it’s perfectly understandable to cast around for what *could* be in its place, but I think the cats were there for only one, primarily visual, reason – the “they’re cats” comment from Rose and the look of open-mouthed astonishment on her face. Echoes of her "He's blue" comment in End of The World. Again, that’s the from-a-distance looking, the not-understanding-everything, the omg wonderment that I'd say is what this series *does* aim for. Look! They’re cats! etc

My niece absolutely loved the cats, by the way. Enjoyed them in a “oh wow! those people are cats!” sort of way. She had to go to bed before the zombies appeared, though. Thankfully.

And there'll probably be a New Adventure novel at some point which will answer all questions about the super-evolved cat civilisation and in which the nice cat, the one that we saw being led away at the end, gets to team up with the Doctor once again etc etc. And personally, I’m quite happy if all that sort of stuff, along with all the handbooks to the various planets, the chronologies of the time wars and the maps of the Tardis, it all stays *off* the Saturday night telly.
 
 
Bed Head
21:56 / 16.04.06
Proper reviews, from proper reviewers!

Charlie Brooker feels let down, but lets slip that the next episode rocked his socks off.

The guy from The Scotsman totally hates on it, but comes across like a total prick while he’s telling us why.
 
 
raggedman
21:59 / 16.04.06
On the cats issue-i don't think they're ever presented as 'the cat race', they're nurse/nun cats and as such probably wouldn't display a lot of what we humans take to be feline behaviour in much the same way as a load of human nurse/nuns would'nt display what we humans take as ape behaviour.

you know what I mean.

my only real problem with the episode was the we're all cured now bit but it is Easter weekend and i had jesus christ superstar in my head (the scene where all the lepers are trying to touch ted neely and he's losing it)

the really interesting bit for me was 'the lonely god' comment coupled with the cat nurse's demand to know what gave the doctor the right to judge. 'i am the doctor there's no one else' (?). that and RTD's willingness in the first season to look at a doctor forced to face the consequences of his actions (margaret, bad wolf corporation)
something the 'classic' series only did sporadically (face of evil, warriors of the deep, rememberance of the daleks-off the top of me head)
a reenergised doctor, free of time war guilt...starting to believe his own hype (?)
i think there's an arrogant fall coming. i could be wrong.

I think Tennant's a brilliant doctor and i'm glad they haven't totally reset his and rose's relationship a la mulder/scully, moonlighting, clark/lois etc etc
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:02 / 16.04.06
OK bedhead! I holler uncle see you next Saturday for #2.
 
 
Bed Head
22:20 / 16.04.06
Is “hollering uncle” like fainites? Oh, I do that too, then. Now that I’m sober, I didn’t like it that much, just thought it was silly fun. And as the reviews show, you’re far from alone in the immediate dislike.

Although, raggedman, I think

i had jesus christ superstar in my head (the scene where all the lepers are trying to touch ted neely and he's losing it)

has just improved that scene about a zillion times for me.
 
 
Tom Coates
22:55 / 16.04.06
I fear I'm sort of with the nay-sayers on this stuff. I think there's a certain inevitability about people's views of the future looking a little bit too much like the present they come from, but really - it gets a bit ridiculous when you push the future just under five billion years away. The view of the city was pretty prosaic, the hospital moribund - basically there were no interesting ideas in it. I mean sure, it's aimed at kids, but still - you're hoping for a balance between human drama, spectacle and ideas, and it managed most of hte first one and I suppose a bit of the second but really. I mean they have a universe in the future full of big thick cables and straight-from-the-sixties telephones built into the walls?! I mean this is five billion years in the future and they've taken communciations technology back forty years.

It had never really occurred to me before but with them pushing the future so hard, I started to wonder about whether there was anywhere in space and time which had technology that massively exceeded that of the TARDiS and the Doctor, and if he just never visits those places because they make him feel insignificant. I mean, seriously, why go to New Earth at all!? It's pretty much exactly the place they just left only with some cat nuns in it. My hope is that somewhere along the timeline, great swathes of humanity evolve in ridiculously weird new ways. I mean five billion years - God! I don't even know where to start. It keeps upsetting me! Humans have only been around a hundred thousand of years or so since we emerged from the previous humanoid species. We're looking for that kind of change, potentially accelerated by technology and the appearance of the singularity, to happen every couple of hundred thousand years. So that's a five-step shift in one million years, and a five-thousand-fold step-change in five billion! Humans shouldn't be recognisable!
 
 
Tom Coates
23:01 / 16.04.06
I should qualify this with my standard, "Doctor Who mostly rocks". I just really hoped for a little bit of a move in science fiction on TV from the stuff performed over the last fifty years. Almost nothing in this episode couldn't have been put into an episode of Star Trek. In fact, most of the future realised is less radical than stuff in Star Trek.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
23:21 / 16.04.06
I agree with the comments above about the non-ultra-advancedness of the 5bnyears-from-now future as depicted, but what I'm reminded of most - and the cat-people were the key here - is the fiction of Cordwainer Smith. His stories contain a sense of a vast depth of future human history, innumerable peaks of civilization and dark ages between, periods of renaissance and decadence. The idea that the future seen in this show has proceeded in a straight upward curve of development from today doesn't seem very credible. Perhaps others who know the stories I'm talking about could say if they agree.

On another note, for non-Scottish readers, could anyone tell us what the prickish Scotsman means when he says Tennant is being "perjink", and why this might be a bad thing?
 
 
iamus
23:33 / 16.04.06
Perjink

I provide the link because, well, I'm not entirely sure what the guy means with his usage of it.
 
 
Bed Head
23:34 / 16.04.06
Well, yeah, you’re right, Tom: it is a bit mundane, humanity shouldn’t be recognisable, and technology, society, communications, everything five billion years from now should be utterly incomprehensible to us. I’m just not really sure that that’s the stuff of entertaining Saturday night telly. But, yes, there’s nothing really new in sci-fi terms, a little bit of newness would have been nice.... but still, one real difference with Star Trek would be that modern Star Treks have often seemed to me to be almost downplaying the spectacle in favour of creating that fully-realised society thing. Everyone on the starships is totally familiar and comfortable with the technology, no-one ever seems to go “fucking hell! Warp 9! How fast is that?”, whereas in this Who, they’re *constantly* having those “fucking hell! Time travel, eh?” moments. I can't help but find that all rather magic, sorry. Just the attitude, if nothing else.

And I’m just coming at this from a different perspective, obviously. I started off watching with a six-year old in the room. So I want it to be fun without doing anything to exclude that sort of viewer. Similarly, I was constantly worrying that something was going to happen that was too scary.
 
 
■
07:05 / 17.04.06
I'm not entirely sure what the guy means with his usage of it
You're not alone. A whole team of subs scratched their heads when that one came up.
You also have to bear in mind that this was a preview, not a review, and so has an unacceptable level of spoilage. I'd complain if I was you. Please.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:44 / 17.04.06
I liked it quite a lot. Bits and bobs:

I thought the cat's body-storage room was similar to the one in The Ark In Space. Actually, the Space Station we've seen in the new series was very similar to the one in that episode come to think of it.

The "chav" thing was uncomfortable. Would have been better had Ca-nasty-sandra called it to Rose's face form outside.

So the face of Ziggy, er, I mean Bo, wasn't really ill, he just came and hid out in the hospital? And then warped out at the end? Did he manipulate those legends and then pretend to be dying?

Didn't the hospital look a bit like a big Dalek?

The cats were good when they got nasty. Claws. Fitted nicely into the whole "I'm youwrr friiieeend, give me Kit-e-Kat----Thanks, now I fucking scratch you, lol" dynamic of our modern-day feline friends.

Can we talk about what we saw in the trailer for next week's episode?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:49 / 17.04.06
Actually, it's exactly the same space station isn't it?
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
15:29 / 17.04.06
And I read every single post about the new Who with longing.

Please...continue...you have a rapt audience of one here.
 
 
Ex
17:46 / 17.04.06
Generally found it to be very fun, and made me quite teary in places. One niggle:

I mean this is five billion years in the future and they've taken communciations technology back forty years.

Tying this in with the cocktail cure - it would only have taken a quick shot earlier in the show to demonstrate that cures were now administered through the skin (some fancy pen-style gadget, with the coloured fluid sloshing around inside?). Instead of which, they used big recognisable 20th century IV drip bags - which seemed odd even before the climax. And then the Doctor used these intravenous drugs in a big shower to cure the guineazombiepigs.
The multicoloured liquid was just an implausible solution (sorry).

It particularly bugged me because the idea of not being touched/cured through touch was quite nice, and they could have made it slightly more scientifically believable. I'm easy, it would only have taken a cat nun/nurse (who I really loved) saying 'Sister, pass me the Ningnong Skincure Pingypen 5000' and I'd have been sold.

I also hope Tennant finds his pitch with the Messianic speeches. At the end of The Doctor Dances (which, to be fair, was much darker and a two-episode story) Eccelstone sold the ecstatic ranting to me. But when Tennant was babbling at the end about having cured all the zombies, I was hoping he'd stop hopping around and peering at them quite so manically (partly in case they misunderstood and bit his face off). I think he can probably do it, but I'm looking forward to see it.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:30 / 17.04.06
WRT 'perjink', I'm beginning to suspect he's complaining about Tennant being all camp and gay...

And seeing as New New New etc York was only supposed to be seen for about twenty seconds does that explain why it wasn't designed to look super dooper?
 
 
■
22:58 / 17.04.06
Y'know what I like? The fact that you can still see the reamins of Bad Wolf graffiti on the playground at the start of the episode.
And the fact that the closing music incorporates the cheesy 1980s JNT theme music.
was only supposed to be seen for about twenty seconds
Funny that, just counted. It's 25 seconds. Hospital shots add about six more. I still have my problems with this ep, but the flying cars/shiny city were never among them.
I challenge anyone to name a single episode of Who original that could beat it for pace, atmosphere, script (OK, possibly City of Death) or believability. Even the Doug Adams or Robert Holmes scripts have a whole lot of cruft to wade through that would make the "chav" clanger look quaint.
 
 
some guy
06:40 / 18.04.06
the closing music incorporates the cheesy 1980s JNT theme music

You're probably thinking of the bridge, which dates back to the very first 1963 episode. It was edited from the theme in the '70s so JNT was really just restoring it.

I challenge anyone to name a single episode of Who original that could beat it for pace, atmosphere, script ... or believability.

The Robots of Death on all counts for starters. I could probably name literally dozens if we decide to get boring. I enjoyed parts of New Earth but the script was almost offensively unintelligent IMO...
 
 
Sax
09:49 / 18.04.06
Ah, but are you referring to a single episode of Robots of Death, or the whole story arc?
 
 
e-n
10:57 / 18.04.06
Ex, I totally agree with the magic healthy soup problem.
Even if he'd just dangled his sonic screwdriver in the mix I totally would have bought it.
Shame
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:37 / 18.04.06
Doctor Who! Starring Neil Tennant as 'The Doctor'! And Chris Lowe as his dour Northern assistant 'Chris'!

The Doctor: What, the Daleks weren't all destroyed in the great Time War? What have I done to deserve this?
 
 
Sniv
12:59 / 18.04.06
I've had quite a lot of fun reading this thread over the last day or so. I caught the new Who over the weekend, and I enjoyed it for what it was, which was a slightly ropey kids' show. For all the people moaning about this, did you not watch the last series or something?

I'm not really a massive Dr Who fan, I didn't really grow up with it on the telly, but I do respect it and enjoy it for the knockabout fun it is. Last series, the effects were just as awful as they are now, Billie Piper was just as poor an actress, the scripts were just as clunky. I think, as Charlie Brooker said, it's the expectation that did this one in for the majority of the viewers. I had no expectations, it was late, I was a bit pished, I really enjoyed it!

iI's funny though, I have to agree with pretty much everything Tom said upthread, but the thing is I never expect anything more than this from the BBC, so I'm never really as let-down as some people in this thread seem to be. I mean, this is British SF, what did you expect? We have not the budgets nor specialised effects crews to make stuff look all shiny and 'real' (I may be talking out my my bottom here, please put me in my place if that's the case). That said, the paucity of the ideas in the episode did stand out quite a bit, and the whole "don't touch them, you'll die!!" bit was veryveryvery lame, as was the climatic scene where all the lepers touched each other and became clean and glowing. I mean, !!1!??1.

On a closing note, the one thing that does bug me about the show is it's whole look. This may well have been commented on last series, but it looks wrong. The sets look a bi too big, the lighting is too bright (I think, or maybe just not nuanced enough), the effects are dodgy, the camera is too crisp. Is this a widely recognised niggle, or am I just weirded out becuse the show's not American, and doesn't have all the little SF ticks and quirks we've grown up with?

Oh, and Bed Head - I can't believe you're serious about Red Dwarf's Cat. Cat is easily the best highly-evolved animal-in-human-form there's ever been on TV. He's a goddamn cat! He likes his reflection, looking good, he dances, he licks his cuff and wipes his head... come on! Shame on you for not recognising the SF brilliance of the Dwarf!

Sorry for shitting over anyone's childhood here, btw, just wanted to chip-in.
 
 
_Boboss
12:54 / 21.04.06
Well the first was a fine slice of cheddary cracker-topping, but, and I don’t think this is SPOILERS because the ads have been all over bloody everywhere, tomorrow’s doctor who’s not only got queen Victoria vs. the werewolf, but bloody SHAOLIN MONKS in it as well!! Shaolin Monks! Victorian England! Best telly show ever!
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
13:06 / 21.04.06
Queen Victoria? Werewolves? Shaolin monks?

Seriously, I'm about to start fucking crying.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:19 / 21.04.06
Trust me Kali, you've still got sooooo much goodness to come in Season 1 (you lucky people just got to "Dalek" didn't you?).
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
14:46 / 21.04.06
I didn't get to see the "Dalek" episode because I went to see Neko Case that night. And no one was kind enough to tape it for me so I already wept about that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:10 / 22.04.06
Kali- fuck "Dalek", seriously. "The Empty Child"... THAT's what it's all about.
 
 
■
00:37 / 22.04.06
Sorry, I know I said I wouldn't do this, and I am being really careful, but my spoiler filters have been eroded by booze and I have been massively excited by a reawakened love for Lis Sladen.
She's on Blue Peter on Monday, you know.


So, may I add WIRE-FUCKIN-FU into the mix?
Scots wha hae dae fu
That's the next BBC1 ident, right there.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:03 / 22.04.06
(btw, my previous post wasn't meant to imply that Dalek was poo. I liked Dalek a lot, too).
 
  

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