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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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HCE
16:37 / 31.07.08
MFreitas, you sound extremely upset. Maybe take a breather and come back and explain your position in the Policy.
 
 
Spaniel
17:50 / 31.07.08
Everyone to the Policy thread.

I'll be moving to have any further offtopic posts deleted.
 
 
Neon Snake
18:53 / 31.07.08
Anyway, looking forward to the next issue of this, cause now even I (who love speculation and discussion) am feeling like 'let's just get the next ish already'.

I am very much in agreement with this...

However, we have a fortnight through which to struggle, FinderWolf! Chin up, skipper!

So, looky here: RIP finishes, we get Gaiman's intriguingly titled "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader?", which kind of hints at how we can expect RIP to end, followed by the Battle For The Cowl, about which we know nothing other than the title and a teaser image featuring Nightwing, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Hush (weirdly enough), and Catwoman, (even more weirdly).

All which invites some fairly delicious speculation, but also, I think, makes it pretty obvious that Bruce will be back under it when the 'battle' finishes up; it's my opinion that at least one of the purposes of the run is to show why it has to be Bruce under the mask.

I would imagine that it also rules those characters out of any Black Glove-related theories whilst we're at it.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:35 / 31.07.08
"Battle for the Cowl"? I don't want a cage match between Tim Drake, Dick, etc. over who gets to be Bats. I'm just making a dumb joke here, though, as I don't expect that to be what this 'battle' entails. I'm trusting Morrison to take us on a fun ride, at the very least.

Gaiman and Kubert's 1602 was completely underwhelming, and I wasn't impressed by Gaiman's Eternals series (that may have to do with the fact that I think it's very hard to get anyone to really care about The Eternals as characters). However, hopefully this will be a good 'last Batman story' - many creators have had a shot at their Last Batman Stories, Frank Miller most notably and successfully of course, so it's Gaiman's turn. Fair enough.

Only a fortnight.... must... hold... on....
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
21:39 / 31.07.08
I don't like bashing creators (they have talent; I don't).

But does anybody here actually like Kurbert's work?

I loved his Batman vs. Predator mini-series from back in the day...but is it just me or is his story-telling seeming really muddled recently?
 
 
Axel Lambert
22:05 / 31.07.08
What if...

The Joker has been 'goading [Batman] to follow him deeper and deeper into his rabbit hole of derangement', tricking him to undertake Simon Hurt's experiment and brainwashing...

with the intent not to kill him, but to break him to the extent that he cannot go on being Batman...

counting on that Dick Grayson will pick up the cape and be the next Batman...

then killing Dick Grayson Batman to hurt Bruce Wayne...

?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:13 / 01.08.08
Don't die, Officer Parkman. You're my hero.


All which invites some fairly delicious speculation, but also, I think, makes it pretty obvious that Bruce will be back under it when the 'battle' finishes up; it's my opinion that at least one of the purposes of the run is to show why it has to be Bruce under the mask.


This certainly doesn't mean it won't happen, but isn't that, essentially, the plot of Knightfall? I said elsewhere that there is a belief that Final Crisis is essentially doing what the Death of Superman was meant to - DoS aimed to show that you couldn't revise Superman in the Leifeld manner, as a cyborg, a killer, a teenager or Shaquille o'Neill because the character simply does not work unless he is Clark Kent (although as a concession he was given awful Liefeldian hair for a bit), and Final Crisis would show how awful the conclusion of the grim and gritty trend was, before reviving a sparkling new Silver Age sensibility. Batman RIP, by the model above, would similarly be mirroring Knightfall, in which Batman was replaced by a Liefeldian Batman - with armour, and shuriken guns, and a flamethrower - to show how it didn't work. Of course, this stacked the deck rather, intentionally or unintentionally, by making the stories involving Jean-Paul Valley (whose return, you will be glad to know, has been foreshadowed) utter arse. Dick Grayson also became Batman for a while during that period (collected as Prodigal, fight fans), for some adventures that were presumably deliberately underwhelming.

I am still rather hoping that Batman RIP will not be a straight retread, but it's certainly not inconceivable...
 
 
HCE
13:25 / 01.08.08
Are there any other instances where Batman has been a role rather than a person?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:19 / 01.08.08
At the risk of derailing onto Final Crisis, wasn't Infinite Crisis promised as returning us to the super happy joy-joy era of DC?

I've been reading this via the Internets and, as was said before, if you don't read this thread or any other source out there, the story is rather unclear in places, I didn't realise that that pathetic band of second-rate super-villains wasn't the Black Glove until it was brought up here, I don't see why it can't be old Dr. Hurt that's running the show by himself and why he 'obviously' has to be someone else in disguise. There's also an element of the Buffy season 4 about the whole affair too, namely that as of part three of RIP Batman has yet to go through anything that he hasn't suffered before, heroin/venom addiction, altered states of consciousness, no Alfred. Sure, there's other shoes that have yet to drop, that stuff with his parents (if someone has discovered an unsavoury past to the Waynes that super-detective 'Oh, I try to work out what to do if a foe I've got no way of comprehending attacks me' Batman hasn't found out then I'm calling shenanigans) and the Joker, but I'm thus far underwhelmed by the supposed proof of Hurt's naughtiness, rather than the very entertaining build-up of months of paranoia.

As it is, I'm leaning towards Batman being his own worst enemy. For several years I've worked on a general principle of ignoring anything that Grant says in interviews (Didn't he lie about Xorn in interviews? Admittedly there's little alternative to blowing the mystery but still). He frequently makes cheques his writing can't cash so this whole "When fans find out who it is they are going to shit their entire digestive systems out" and the like is just noise. It probably won't be terrible but I doubt it'll blow anyone away either.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:22 / 01.08.08
HCE - Are there any other instances where Batman has been a role rather than a person?

Batman- Digital Justice I think it was called. You'll be getting my counselling bills for forcing me to relive that shortly.

Didn't Red Son end up having a league of Batmen after Supes killed the original?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:24 / 01.08.08
And as an afterthought, all we need is Maxie Zeus running around showing everyone his potty like a big boy and we'll pretty much have an all ages friendly version of Arkham Asylum- A Serious House on Serious Earth, and the purpose of that was to either help Batman become a better hero or help a disturbed inmate called Bruce Wayne start to heal his fractured psyche.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
04:40 / 02.08.08
Adam A.,

I always vastly preffered Adam Kubert to Andy. In fact I used to loathe his stuff for nearly a decade (early 90's up). I think angsty early teen fanboy me resented him for not being Jim Lee and following him on the X-Men.

Since, I think his work and my taste have both taken significant leaps forward. I think JHW3 is brilliant and one of the most versatile, stunningly capable artists in the medium today, but for an actiony Batman run, and this one in particular, I think Kubert's been the best artist for it so far.
 
 
Spaniel
13:55 / 02.08.08
INDAYED.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:03 / 02.08.08
Lady: Actually, Thomas Wane being a criminal has been done before also - in an Earth-1 crossover where the Earth-1 Huntress helped Bruce Wayne to investigate the revelation that his father was mixed up in organised crime, which had made him wish to abdandon the mantle of etc. WHY DO I KNOW THIS?
 
 
This Sunday
18:24 / 02.08.08
Are there any other instances where Batman has been a role rather than a person?

Dark Knight continuity's Sons of the Bat. Batman Beyond. Supersons and Earth Two stories. The mentioned-many-times-here DCU's Club of Heroes. Batman: Switch and Batman/Planetary: Night on Earth could probably be argued. Earthquakey Gotham's Batgirl/woman. The batsignal used on its own, without actually intending it to call up Batman. Except that in those cases, the role isn't always strictly Batman but his position/job/function.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:28 / 02.08.08
The scene in 52 where Charlie paints over the signal with a question mark reminds me of it. John Byrne's Generations was based around the concept of the Super/Bat Dynasties and the roles spawned by them.
 
 
This Sunday
18:32 / 02.08.08
Earth One's Daddy Waynebucks did some breaking and entering, didn't he? For which he was deliciously blackmailed until Alfred posed as a cop and got him out of it. Because nothing beats crime like a little more crime and some good intentions.

Is there a univerese where Wayne's aren't just going around breaking all kinds of laws?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:37 / 02.08.08
Probably not-- look at that Detective #27 elseworld with the Crimson Avenger from way back. Wayne was evil in that as well.

And I'm surprised nobody's ever suggested that Kate Kane's motivation might be that she's, perhaps, an illegimate daughter of Thomas?
 
 
murphy
01:58 / 05.08.08
Are there any other instances where Batman has been a role rather than a person?

Batman #56 (1949) had the evil Luis become Bathombre. His was a desire to do wicked, as opposed to avenge death.

His moustahce is bueno and I wish I had one.

You must pledge yourself to secrecy
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:17 / 05.08.08
Hush (weirdly enough)

It's not that weird. I know Hush isn't a particularly popular character round here but he is the anti-Bat (and also, incidentally, someone who has a shedload of knowledge about Bruce and the Waynes in general hence my own particular Who Is The Black Glove? theory) so seeing him try and steal the mantle for himself isn't all that surprising.

He's (I would say) a little better known than Prometheus and has more motive to switch from bandages to cowls. Which might be why he's being used rather than Morribot's own anti-Bat.
 
 
Spaniel
14:29 / 05.08.08
Scientist, you are aware that Hush is currently making an appearance over in Detective's RIP tie-in? Given his involvement over there, I strongly suspect he won't be involved over here.
 
 
Evil Scientist
15:26 / 05.08.08
I'm barely aware...of anything.

I was aware Hush was coming back in the RIP stuff, but unsure why that excludes him from giving the Glove Love.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:13 / 05.08.08
It's *extremely* unlikely that he'd be a major baddie in two major storyarcs in the two major Batbooks.
 
 
Spaniel
19:36 / 05.08.08
There's that, and the fact that Dini is clearly doing something very different with the character.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:22 / 06.08.08
The words "Curses!" and "Foiled again!" are springing to my mind.

I'll get something right one of these days, and then the world shall tremble.
 
 
Spaniel
10:59 / 06.08.08
If he wasn't appearing over in 'Tec I'd say Hush would be one of the most workable candidates amongst the Bat-villains. He does, afterall, have form for this kind of thing.
 
 
murphy
17:40 / 06.08.08
Perhaps not the Observation of the century

Yeah, well here’s another: the new Batmobile is also black and red. And Batman said to Robin that the new ride didn’t turn out the way he imagined (or words to that effect).

Batman doesn’t seem the sort to lose control of a project all too often. He likes control, as a matter of fact.

But Batman also said to the lovely JJ that he feels like fate brought them together, which is, in a way, representative of another loss of control.

So, there’re two black and red things over which Brucie acknowledges a loss of control. Seems to be significant, somehow, although I can’t figure how.


And as far as theories go, I don’t know who the Black Glove is, but I do think that Alfred is Darkseid.
 
 
Neon Snake
19:38 / 06.08.08
and Final Crisis would show how awful the conclusion of the grim and gritty trend was, before reviving a sparkling new Silver Age sensibility.

I am clinging desperately to this belief, despite wiser heads than mine noting that we've spent the last several years thinking that this next big event will surely be the one to purge all the grim'n'gritty teenagegirldeathbypowertool nonsense, to the point where actually, I think I need to accept that it's not going to happen and that limbs will continue to be torn off and eaten by villains on a semi-regular basis. *sniff*

Batman RIP, by the model above, would similarly be mirroring Knightfall, in which Batman was replaced by a Liefeldian Batman - with armour, and shuriken guns, and a flamethrower - to show how it didn't work.

I think we're already there, aren't we? The parallels with Knightfall are already present. The distinction, I think, is that we're going to see why it has to be Bruce, as opposed to why it specifically can't be a '90s XTR3ME!!122!! Batman - but that's a fairly fine distinction.

And I fucking loved Azrael, back in the day. The only thing he was missing was some kind of underslung chainsaw attachment, as far as I was concerned. I actually won't be displeased if we get a cameo from the little fella.

Nothing beats crime like a little more crime and some good intentions.

That's written beneath the Wayne coat of arms, surely?
 
 
Automatic
21:14 / 06.08.08


From Nightwing 147.

Ho ho ho.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
23:29 / 06.08.08
So, the paramount theatre thinks Bruce Wayne is the Black glove.


1st one a Thomas Wayne allusion
2nd main character creates an alter ego
3rd main character assumes another's identity
4th MPD
5th MPD
 
 
Automatic
08:11 / 07.08.08
I believe it's Two-Face up on that roof, for some reason.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
17:15 / 07.08.08
By the way,
I screwed up the order of the movies (2 and 3)on my post above.

It's Bond who adopts another's identity in You Only Live Twice and Mathew McSixpack who creates the alter ego for himself in Two for the Money.

Also, in Double Jeopardy the "dead" husband (who does fake his own death) also creates a new identity for himself.
 
 
Spaniel
19:59 / 09.08.08
679 Preview joy
 
 
FinderWolf
20:04 / 09.08.08

First 5 page preview! Talking gargoyles! Purple weird word balloons! YES!!
 
 
Triplets
20:11 / 09.08.08
Bat-Might! (genius)

This looks even more fucking bonkers than Batsmack.
 
  

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