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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
17:13 / 22.07.08
brb: If anything, I would probably say that the proliferation of BBFs is a stage past the kind of treatment that we can see in Batman, whether written by Morrison or not. I think one possible reason for this is the absence of pressure - whereas there are a number of black and minority ethnic actors out there, so there is a material consequence if there is no work for them, and there is also a sizeable black and minority ethnic viewing population to be courted. So, Pete Ross may be a sucky, sucky character in Smallville, but there are actors who want the part and viewers who will recognise that their existence is being acknowledged in the audience.

In comics generally - and this is a broader issue - there isn't the push or the pull pressure in comics. Characters are brought out of the ether, and the readership is, at a guess, largely at this point white and male, still, which also means that the people moving from fan culture to writing and editing for the big two publishers are also the same. As a result of this, and as a result of the historical underrepresentation of minorities in comics (given that almost every character from about 1940 onwards is in with a chance of existing in current continuity), creators have a largely white "palette" with which to paint, and when creating new characters will probaly tend to stick to the familiar, through selection bias, a fear of insensitivity or similar. You can see results of this even where there are BME characters, where often the creator has avoided the difficulties of portraying a minority culture with which their readership might be familiar and instead making their characters wildly exotic and sui generis - Storm and the Black Panther, perhaps the highest-profile black characters in the Marvel Universe, are an Egyptian who lived in Africa as a tribal goddess before joining the X-Men and the hereditary monarch of a fictitious, technologically advanced African nation.

For whatever reason, Batman seems to be unusually resistant to black characters, possibly because it has a well-established existing supporting cast - Robin, Alfred, Jim and Barbara Gordon, Nightwing. This was specifically stated as the reason for the creation of the hero Orpheus and, within the story, his decision to settle on Gotham as a base of operations. However, he was disposed of relatively quickly, murdered by a minor Batman enemy getting a push. From there it's probably down to Hispanic-American Renee Montoya and African-American Crispus Allen, both former Gotham Central police officers. Interestingly, Allen becoming superpowered coincided with his departure from Gotham, but then he had just become the Spectre, who might be said to be unbalancingly powerful.

Much as the rogue's gallery of Batman tends to be exotic and exaggerated, so race tends to be an exoticising feature - thus, in the supporting cast we have Lady Shiva, a martial artist of undefined Asian nationality (post-Crisis, but never mind that), her daughter Batgirl, whose ethnicity is mainly expressed through having huge eyes, and Talia, the beautiful daughter of generically Arabic plotter Ra's al-Ghul, who clearly spent a few years in a European finishing school and is madly in love with Batman.

So, there isn't really a BFF role in Gotham's first family - the animated series "The Batman" introduces one for Bruce Wayne in the character of Ethan Bennet IHAVEWASTEDMYLIFE.

The BBF in comics more generally might be worth pursuing in another thread. I think Decrescent Daytripper started one about treatments of race - linked to above?
 
 
FinderWolf
17:34 / 22.07.08
a Batman-related P.S.: the character of Lucius Fox was created in 1979, and I think it's common knowledge in comics circles (although I could certainly be mistaken) that he was created to introduce a non-white supporting character to the series, and to give further reason as to how how Bruce could run an entire company without actually being around much to run it. He was used in the animated series to decent effect, and of course now is in the latest films.
 
 
HCE
18:17 / 22.07.08
Ah, very interesting. Thanks, guys. Will chew this over.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:50 / 22.07.08
Lucius Fox! How could I have forgotten? Lucius Fox is indeed introduced as Bruce Wayne's Man Friday. In fact, he is very like Jim "Rhodey" Rhodes - a black character who takes over one element of the hero's life. So, Lucius Fox is the business manager for Bruce Wayne, who is of course really a supergenius and if he was not busy beating up purse snatchers, much as Jim Rhodes is the stand-in Iron Man when Tony Stark is unable to be Iron Man - although not, I think, introduced for that reason.

Coincidentally, James Rhodes was also introduced in 1979. He probably fits the model of BBF better in some ways - Lucius Fox has a rather avuncular relationship with Wayne - but does have his own problems, plotlines and series, although he is always in the shadow of Tony Stark and in the "classic" armour dependent on him for resources and repairs.

We aren't going to talk about the eidolon battlesuit. That's just an agreement we've made.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
23:16 / 22.07.08
I actually felt that Lucius Fox (in the first film at least) was a little bit racist. My opinion changed because in the second film he asserts his own will and rejects Batman.

Dumb question, but is Lucius a character in the comic?
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
23:17 / 22.07.08
scratch that last part
 
 
dark horse
23:42 / 22.07.08
dude, spoilers! i haven't been able to get to see TDK yet!!!
 
 
dark horse
23:43 / 22.07.08
anyway i didn't see morgan freeman doing anything racist in the first film, which scenes did you mean?
 
 
The Natural Way
23:55 / 22.07.08
It's not that he was 'doing' anything racist, it's the portrayal, the functions he performs, that people are concerned with here.
 
 
dark horse
00:00 / 23.07.08
i thought he performed very important functions... bruce couldn't have saved rachel or maybe even all of gotham without him!
 
 
SiliconDream
05:01 / 23.07.08
For whatever reason, Batman seems to be unusually resistant to black characters, possibly because it has a well-established existing supporting cast - Robin, Alfred, Jim and Barbara Gordon, Nightwing. This was specifically stated as the reason for the creation of the hero Orpheus and, within the story, his decision to settle on Gotham as a base of operations. However, he was disposed of relatively quickly, murdered by a minor Batman enemy getting a push. From there it's probably down to Hispanic-American Renee Montoya and African-American Crispus Allen, both former Gotham Central police officers.

Don't forget Onyx!

...what? You forgot her? Okay, yes, understandable. Still, she does operate in Gotham, and Batman holds her in exceptionally high regard. (So much so that, despite being an ex-assassin, she's one of the few other vigilantes he approves of in his city.)
 
 
HCE
13:04 / 23.07.08
Why does he hold her in such high esteem?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:39 / 23.07.08
Guilt? It's a good question, though: her one proper gig, bodyguarding Orpheus, she flubbed. She is there though, albeit highly intermittently. Around the same period, Huntress (Italian-American) and Tarantula (Latina) were also brevetted into the Batman family, and most recently of course in the annals of inclusivity we have had a gay batwoman, although that's wandering a little off the point.

There may be something there about Orpheus pretending to be a crime boss and Onyx his muscle, but I'd have to go back and read the source material, and just no.

So, Lucius Fox, Onyx, Orpheus (deceased) and Crispus Allen (deceased, resurrected as the spirit of vengeance). None of whom really have a collegial relationship with Batman - not least because he isn't really the sort to have collegial relationships, but also because he is choked with continuity chums - Robin, Nightwing, Superman...

Morrison has kept the focus quite firmly on characters who reflect Batman in some way - the three other Batmen, Batman's son, Batman's sidekick, Batman's former sidekick, the Man-Bat (tangentially), the Batman's stylistic nemesis and opposite (the Joker) and the Club of Heroes - all, with the exception of the Native American Batmen, white and largely from the silver age (excepting the new characters).
 
 
This Sunday
17:44 / 23.07.08
and most recently of course in the annals of inclusivity we have had a gay batwoman, although that's wandering a little off the point.

Gay Jewish Batwoman. So not as off-point as it may otherwise appear.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
16:28 / 24.07.08
Whilst I understand that this is now a thread about racial stereotyping in Batman comics in general, I had a thought this morning, spinning out of discussion as to a potential third Nolan Batmovie.

Could the Black Glove be... Edward Nigma?

What is the identity of the Black Glove, if not a huge riddle?

Morrison is certain that the identity will be a complete surprise - is this because there haven't been any real clues? None of the solutions the story has hinted at have convinced me, thus far.

Granted, (no pun intended), I have no actual evidence, it was just a random thought that seemed to stick in my mind. But it's possible.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:39 / 24.07.08
Whilst I understand that this is now a thread about racial stereotyping in Batman comics in general,

*head-desk!*

Anyway, the Black Glove is clearly Catwoman, because she wears black gloves, don't you see? And it's her sly and bitter reference to the Black Mask and his ruining her family.

Or it's Wonder Woman. She's been experimenting with secret identities lately.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
01:12 / 25.07.08
I am personally going to vote for the Back-wards Vampires at this point.

---

Since we are on the subject of Racist conspiracies and Batman, has anybody seen the Mr. Show w/ Bob and David bit making fun of Farrakhan which coincidentally leads directly into a batman parody.
 
 
HCE
02:48 / 25.07.08
Has it occurred to people who want to talk about other things to just ... talk about them? Without making snotty remarks?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:52 / 25.07.08
I don't think it has, no. And we know what Batman would say about that.
 
 
Speedy
04:52 / 25.07.08
I think he would say: "Snot! Mock! It's really ... snocky in here!*

HCE, I'm going to say that, given the shitstorm upthread, people are hesitant about how to broach new subject matter here. Especially if they want to talk about the mystery that is one of the ostensible hooks for the comic. I give Colonel Kadmon the benefit of the doubt and assume he's being sincere.

*And then "Papa spank."
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:11 / 25.07.08


...or they could just post, you know, like normal, without having to comment on the other discussion if they don't want to talk about it.
 
 
Spaniel
07:57 / 25.07.08
Yup.

Crazy idea, I know
 
 
Neon Snake
08:10 / 25.07.08
Oh, for fuck's sake. Starting to really wish I hadn't bothered, now.

Surely the "shitstorm" was only brought about because the subject matter was dismissed out-of-hand; not because the poster wished to discuss something else Batman-related. Time and again, people have commented that the thread is perfectly capable of sustaining a number of parallel discussions, and I'm sure that no-one is going to think less of anyone who wants to discuss matters relating to the comic's plot, and doesn't want to comment on racial stereotypes.

Surely?
 
 
Spaniel
08:37 / 25.07.08
Yup
 
 
Automatic
08:48 / 25.07.08
In the interest of provoking some new discussion (edit; not that discussion about the role of race in Batman isn't an interesting and applicable one), have a look at these blog posts from Funnybook Babylon. They're an excellent textual dissection of Morrison's Batman run so far, and sent me straight back to the early issues to have a look at things I'd missed.

Batman Notes Part 1 - This is Your Brain on Drugs

Batman Notes Part 2 - The Aunt Agatha Christie Period

Batman Notes Part 3 - From Here We Go Sublime

Admittedly, a lot of themes and motifs raised in these articles have been discussed here, but I found these an excellent resource for readers.
 
 
HCE
13:51 / 25.07.08
BEHOLD! A NEW DISCUSSION IN ALL ITS GLORY!

Some of the comments on there are amusing:

"The Native American vigilante is an alcoholic? Seriously, Grant?"
 
 
FinderWolf
14:20 / 25.07.08
Batman Notes Part 1, linked above, refers to the Greg Rucka story Death and the Maidens, which I completely loved when it came out (the end was a bit ehhh after the buildup, but overall it's a terrific miniseries). I didn't know that Morrison had expressed fondness for the story... I remember writing about it here on Barbelith as it came out. The kicker in "Death and the Maidens" (illustrated by Klaus Janson) is where Bruce is given a drug or mystical thingie by Ra's al Ghul that Ra's claims with 100% certainty, will enable Bruce to have time with the ghosts/spirits of his parents. And Bruce, consumed with curiosity after initially dismissing as it bunk, takes the drug, of course, and has some rather fascinating conversations with his dead parents.

Just glad to see that others out there dug that story too. Those are great articles; thanks for linking to them. The 'Tim is always eating' thing is something I'll have to look into...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:33 / 25.07.08
The off-hand but possible connection to Aztek mentioned is interesting, as well. Especially given the Bat-bits that Morrison tried out over there, back in the day.
 
 
Quimper
17:50 / 25.07.08
Pages ago, I mentioned the running theme of characters who have taken on the mantle of the Bat out of respect and admiration (not parental revenge), and cited The League of Batmen and The Batman of Zur En Arrh. It supported my theory that GM is forcing the Bat to evolve by eliminating the revenge motivation and turning Bruce into a true do-gooder superhero.

That's contrasted with those who have taken on the mantle to embrace its darker side...the Man-Bats and the Three Ghosts.

But the ultimate character who has taken on the mantle bc of its heroic nature is Bat-Mite (the first one probably). We have an omnipotent character running around various panels who is the most indicative of the central themes of the run—someone taking on the mantle of the Bat out of admiration AND the real/not-real game surrounding Bruce's black casebook/supernatural adventures.
 
 
FinderWolf
21:45 / 25.07.08
Morrison at a Batman panel at SDCC, today:

>> On the current mystery Batman villain [Morrison said:]: "I can't believe it, nobody's guessed it--it's so up front, right there in every issue we tell you who we're dealing with. And it's a villain everybody knows."

Hmm.... seems to imply that it's a villain who's already established as a villain...? Or is this just misdirection? Or maybe this supports the Alfred hypothesis given that so many clues in "every issue" point to Alfred...
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
22:22 / 25.07.08
fanfiction time, a Barbelith favourite!

this SDCC statement had me thinking: what if it's Gordon, maybe under the effects of the Joker toxin...? if this has been discussed\debunked before, please apologize.

Gordon - alongside Alfred - is to me one of the few established characters that'd fit giving the emotional hit we've been promised Bruce would suffer [if that itself wasn't a false clue planted by GM in the interviews].

we've seen a pretty sane Jim Gordon throughout this run, even after the fast recovery from the Joker toxin's effects, but it's a guy that has been pushed to the limit of his sanity a lot of times. he might have finally broken and assumed a double identity himself. almost like a Joker-Two face mashup.

that could serve as the only way, in a crazy fashion, to become a mysterious vigilante in a 'similar' way Batman is. the Wayne dossier that outrages Gordon could be a false clue, something he completely ignores or pretends to ignore and will still put to use.

for years it has been discussed whether Gordon knows by now who Batman really is, and maybe the Joker toxin helped bring unconscious impulses to the surface that rewired his brain... and the final clues are made clear.

his motive could be either helping build a better Batman by breaking Batman, or simply getting him out of the way in a theatrical fashion typical of the Joker [or a person affected by the Joker's gas] - as he was made almost obsolete by a Gotham free of mad crooks.

this was just speculation. burn me at the stake if you will.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:48 / 25.07.08
No, I quite like that theory. It might not have as much evidence to back it up, apparently, as Alfred. But it has a certain rhythm to it.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
04:05 / 26.07.08
I went and checked out that transcript and man... that just screams Bruce as the Black Glove.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:01 / 26.07.08
Nah, it's that well-known villain, Joe Chill Junior.

Arse.



I tell ya, it'd be nice to get some clues within the actual story, and not from interviews. As far as I can see, if you hadn't been reading the interviews/message boards, you'd have no reason to suspect that the Black Glove was anyone other than Simon Hurt.
 
 
Axel Lambert
10:17 / 26.07.08
Is there a transcript from san diego? Where?
 
  

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