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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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Spaniel
16:44 / 19.08.08
Hmmmm...
 
 
Triplets
19:57 / 19.08.08
Population Explosion!
 
 
Triplets
19:59 / 19.08.08
Actually, looking back now we're so far into George's run, it's interesting that we've still only the one Joker (with Charlie Caligula and Pierrot being a possible two copies) but we have a whole flock of Batmen flying around.

Pris-O-Matic!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:08 / 19.08.08
Ah, MFreitas. Lose shit, flame out, pretend it didn't happen. Classic.

The problem with this reading is that it isn't really supported by the stuff that actually happens in the text. The Batman of Z-E-A isn't black and red - he's red and yellow and purple and cetera. The Batmite is giving pretty good advice - keep moving, remove the radio transmitter (assuming that there is a radio transmitter - this is, of course, a common belief among schizophrenics. Who can't process metaphor). The Batman of Z-E-A isn't crazy, as such - he's just pure Batman. He sees the psychogeography of the city, because Batman is an urban creation, and specifically a creation of Gotham. He makes intuitive leaps rather than detective deductions - he instinctively analyses Caligula's failings and insecurities, even though his batself pretends he has a gadget (the Bat-radia) that can detect his weaknesses. He's scary, but Batman is scary.

In my humble, the Joker hasn't won, because the Joker winning would be a shit story, and I think this is turning into a better arc than that, at least. I'd been underwhelmed rather by some of the build-up - it was very pretty, but the storytelling wasn't gripping me after the excellent Club of Heroes episodes, and the crossovers and Batmans of the future and other palaver I found rather distracting, which was probably not the intention. This issue, though, I thought was very strong, and nicely contained - apart from the identity of the to-be-lobotomised prisoner in Arkham, you didn't even need the previous issue, much less the previous 12, to know what was going on. I'm hopeful that the denouement will keep the dynamism of this issue, rather than the portentousness of "The Clown at Midnight".
 
 
MFreitas
21:53 / 19.08.08
Just to say I put "Jenna Elfman's" on ignore.
 
 
SiliconDream
22:59 / 19.08.08
Does Hurt know it's Batman's back-up personality? Does everything he's done to Batman so far just to keep him busy while the Black Glove prepares it's final 'crushing' move? Or did he just think that was a cool and not-commonly used phrase he'd use to program Batman's off-switch? Because what we might have here is a battle between Zur-En-Ar as Bruce's switch-off program AND as his 'what do I do if someone takes out the Bruce Wayne part of me'.

My thought is that Hurt doesn't actually know about the ZEA personality, but he chose Zurr-En-Arrh as his trigger phrase/concept for the same reason Batman did: it was the most psychologically traumatic experience Bats ever had as an adult. Getting stomped by Bane sucked, but (to my very limited knowledge) it didn't wreck Bruce's resolve...he just had to go into rehab before he was physically fit to fight again. But after Zurr-En-Arrh, Bruce was ready to give up the bat-ears purely because his mind failed.

Hurt picked ZEA to work on because he wants to reenact and amplify that failure. Batman picked ZEA because taking the worst things that ever happened to him and making them into weapons is what Batman does.
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:49 / 20.08.08
Just to say I put "Jenna Elfman's" on ignore.

Hsss.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:02 / 20.08.08
There's a theory kicking around that ZEA Batman is riffing off of the All-Star Batman; all stubbly-chinned and manicsmacking out teeth with Bat-Bats; Morrison hinting that All-Star is what happens if you remove Bruce from the equation and go too far down the route of "Bruce Wayne died that night in the alley. He became something...more...".

Miller's Batman has been referenced a couple of times in the run, notably the issues with the first appearance of Batmite; but also Joker's crack about wanting the "goddamn Batman to get the goddamn joke" back in 663.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:08 / 20.08.08
MFreitas Batman could never change the Joker. Instead he came close to be like him. The Joker won.

I think there is certainly an effort on Grant's part to do the old 'Are Batman and the Joker as bad as one another??EleventyThree!/Two Sides of the same coin' story, what with the emphasis in (IIRC) RIP part one of Alfred and Tim discussing about whether Bruce is exactly sane considering all the things he does to his mind in order to try and be stronger. And of course, RIP is Grant doing 'The Killing Joke', Bruce experiencing the kind of really bad experience that broke the Joker.

I really hope that Grant manages to work out some way of getting rid of the Black Glove and the League of Villains that is better than 'and then the Joker goes crazy and just kills off everyone that happened to know that Bruce Wayne is the Batman'. It's such a cliché but then Morrison isn't above using clichés when he's in a spot.
 
 
MFreitas
11:50 / 20.08.08
I don't think he's going to get rid of the Black Glove. The Black Glove still exists in the #666 future, just as Batman does. There must always be a Batman, for his nemesis, his opposite is still there. Batman and The Joker will ever be. And yes, I'm saying Joker is the Black Glove.

That's very similar in nature to New X-Men: the nemesis is apparently taken out of the equation in the beginning of the run, just to emerge later as the true mastermind (if you discount the Sublime coda in NXM, of course).
 
 
Neon Snake
12:11 / 20.08.08
And yes, I'm saying Joker is the Black Glove.

So, Alfred is the Joker?
 
 
MFreitas
12:24 / 20.08.08
No, I ditched that. As certainly others have ditched Darkseid or Hugo Strange or other guesses totally unrelated to this run.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:47 / 20.08.08
I think sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting la! la! la! I can't hear you! at Haus is a bit much. He only disagreed with you. And fairly convincingly, in fact.
 
 
MFreitas
14:00 / 20.08.08
Try looking at the first sentence of his post. Anything related to the subject? Thought so.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:23 / 20.08.08
Terribly offtopic.
 
 
Neon Snake
15:22 / 20.08.08
...he can't hear you.
 
 
Triplets
16:43 / 20.08.08
MFreitas has shutdown and activated his back-up personality, safe from linguistic attack!
 
 
MFreitas
17:17 / 20.08.08
No, it just makes my eyes immune to glorified sophisticated bullies.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:59 / 20.08.08
I want a gun that fires glorified sophisticated bullets.

At the start of the last part Tim is reading Bruce's notes on his reluctant attempts to think like the Joker. So is Zur-En-Ahh that BatJoker personality? Is this what Bruce thinks he'd be like if he lost it completely (where you take it on trust that dressing up like a giant bat is a sane way to react to the world)?
 
 
MFreitas
07:57 / 21.08.08
Yes, as I'm seeing it, Zur-En-Arrh (when triggered by Bruce instead of Hurt) is the word that summons "Bat-Mite", the side of Bruce's psyche that caught a glimpse of how the Joker's mind worked and stored it in the shape of a talking chibi Bat-Plush.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:17 / 21.08.08
Offtopica: I've seen a fair amount of criticism of Tony Daniel's art for this run, but I have to say he's raised his game considerably. I've seen far worse translations of Morrison's hyperdense storytelling, and there's a lurid pulpy quality to Daniels' work. Plus: on time = very yes please. Whilst I adored JHW's art on the Club of Villains arc, it was very particularly suited to that story. The most recent issue with all it's frenzied Bat-bat activity was very well served by Daniels' pumped up artwork. Just saying.
 
 
MFreitas
11:14 / 21.08.08
Well, he's capable at best, but can also have some terrifying moments (not in a good way). He basically belongs to the Jim Lee school, meaning an artist with flair for action but lacking any subtlety, any extra to distinguish him from a cadre of similar styled artists.

Comparing to the other Bat-artists in the run, he's neither as solid as Kubert nor brilliant as JH. He's just... ok.
 
 
Spaniel
11:18 / 21.08.08
It's interesting, they were discussing Daniel's art on the last Funnybook Babylon podcast. The general consensus was that it had improved enough to be called "good", but that in their fanboy wetdreams they'd have a truly great artist on the title. While I pretty much agree with that line of thinking, it seems to me that Daniel's pulpy lines are more than suited to this arc. It's just so… so bat-dirty. So filthy nineties and back breaky (but actually better).

I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts here. Anyone know what I mean?
 
 
Neon Snake
11:27 / 21.08.08
Yeah, I think he does well on the action-hero front.

Whilst I only really notice an artist if he's very good/very bad/unusually stylised, Daniels work was thrown into pretty sharp relief in the Ra'surrection cross-over. Also the final issue before RIP would have been a whole lot better had Daniels pencilled it; Bruce came off as his old badloomy Batself throughout that issue, and I'm sure that wasn't Mozzer's intention.

But the whole musclyneon thing of the past few issues have been pretty decent; I've never seen cause for serious complaint.
 
 
tickspeak
14:53 / 21.08.08
Except when Charlie Caligula sees Bat-Mite...there's no Bat-Mite there. Which, quite possibly was totally in the script, but the thing is can we be sure? Maybe Daniels just left him out! I don't know why I don't have faith in Daniels's ability to be meticulous--it might just be a knee-jerk judgment based on his 90sness--but bigger things have been ignored in Grant Morrison scripts by better artists.
 
 
MFreitas
15:07 / 21.08.08
Daniel said in his blog Mite was missing on purpose to generate the doubt whether Charlie was really seeing the creature. I interpret it as a madman seeing a thing created through the psyche of another (even if temporarly) madman.
 
 
MFreitas
15:12 / 21.08.08
Just to add to my previous post:

Especially if that madman (Caligula) seems to have a fixation on the Joker. He most probably reveres him, desperately wants to be like him. Perfectly normal then that he would be able to see the tulpa, let's call it, modeled from the glimpse Bruce had of Joker's psyche.
 
 
Spaniel
17:36 / 21.08.08
I really wish people would stop blithering on about the specifics of that little moment. Of course Bat-Mite shouldn't be in the frame, we need the ambiguity, it makes it weirder, more difficult to lock down. Morrison has always done this kind of stuff, and it's fun and juicy and might well not be followed up on.

I have a theory about how it fits in, of course, but I'm not worrying about it too much
 
 
MFreitas
17:48 / 21.08.08
Yes, that reminds me of the weeping Charles Xavier statue near the end of New X-Men. That was just that: a weeping statue of the saintest of the X-Men, in the veign of thousands of statues of saints alledgedly seen crying in the "real world". No need for further explanations.
 
 
Triplets
18:23 / 24.08.08
I interpret it as a madman seeing a thing created through the psyche of another (even if temporarly) madman.

Or because Zurbats is constantly looking over his shoulder at something Charlie can't see screaming, "SHOULD WE START WITH HIS KNEECAPS, OLD CHUM?"
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:33 / 25.08.08
I think I'd be fine if the Batman of Zur-Enh Arrh stuck around for good. Imagine the JLA meetings.
 
 
tickspeak
15:15 / 25.08.08
Not to blither, but for the sake of clarity, I don't have a problem with Mite not being in the frame. I like ambiguity. I just wasn't sure, based on the construction of the page, whether he was left out on purpose or not. But now I have the answer! Thanks, Barbelith. You're really not so moribund as people say.
 
 
Spaniel
08:00 / 26.08.08
Sorry, Tick, was taking out a bunch of frustration on you, and that wasn't a very nice thing to do.
 
 
Automatic
11:56 / 02.10.08
*Spoilers*

That was a fantastic issue, with some of the best Joker writing I've ever read. Still, Jezebel Jet - evil? Really?

What a pity.
 
 
Quimper
13:37 / 02.10.08
I think we all saw that coming but were hoping for a better curveball. But it ain't over yet.

Loved the Joker line about hints and clues and things making sense and fitting into nice boxes. That's not life, that's wikipedia! HA! Take that, today's readers.

Red and Black is everywhere. The suggestion of a checkerboard. Jezebel herself. The roulette gamble of good vs. evil. But the trashy mystery lover in me loved the "Diamonds/Clubs = Rich People; Hearts/Spades =Love Death".

Bruce of Zur-En-Arrh trying feebly to use his Bat Radia was sad to me.

But yes really some of the best Joker writing I've ever read. Batman shot Joker in the face!!!
 
  

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