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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:22 / 04.10.08
Is Satan still in the running?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
22:27 / 04.10.08
You know, I fucking love this mystery.

In all honesty: Can Grant pull this off? I really hope so.
 
 
--
22:31 / 04.10.08
Satan seems to be a very popular candidate on the DC message boards at least. And I suppose it does kind of make sense. It's been noted how Hurt seems to be utterly unafraid of the Joker (even referring to him as his servant), the Joker's forked tongue, the possibility of the devil hating Batman because Batman represents a noble spirit, the fact that everyone knows who the devil is, etc. It has also been noted how characters seem to be getting what they wished for. Batman wished to get into the mindframe of the Joker and now that appears to be happening. The hunchback wanted the ugliness that was inside him to be made manifest on his outside, and the Joker granted him that wish (though perhaps not in the way he would have liked). In any event, considering some of the Biblical aspects that have been seen throughout the run (Jezebel, the Antichrist, and so on) having the devil as the ultimate villain wouldn't come as all that much of a shocker. I'm not sure if I'd be satisfied with that, but then again, I'm not entirely satisfied with any of the other major candidates, so I guess I'll just have to sit back and wait for it to unfold.
 
 
This Sunday
01:27 / 05.10.08
My LCS is unanimously confident that it's Poison Ivy, disguised as Jezebel. It isn't, surely, but I don't really have the heart to tell them.

It's a very messy miasma of Batfolklore, so the echoes are catching some readers up. Other readers are just being deliberately obtuse and awkward.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:47 / 05.10.08
I don't know, Morrison's been making such a thing of it in the last few issues that I kind of suspect that the Black Glove is just Doctor Hurt and that's it. I don't care what Morrison says in interviews, he knows how to talk a good story but he could explain in an interview with Comica Generica Websitica the plot of every story he intends to write for the next five years and I wouldn't believe any of it until I saw it.

That said, this issue was a bit meh over all, so Jezebel is evil? Well, there was no way she was ever going to stay around and so the only question remains whether she'll repent just before someone kills her. I dare say the fact that the Joker now knows that Bruce is Batman will never be mentioned again, perhaps with a side-order of "The Joker doesn't care about Bruce Wayne, just Batman!" And yes, the Joker turns out to be more of a problem for the Club of Villains than Batman, wow, I didn't see that coming. Oh wait, I did.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
16:23 / 05.10.08
Our Lady, in the last ish we know that Hurt is more than he appears to be, the Joker outright states it.

He also has that line about how now him and Batman are supposed to team up to defeat the CoV, but kind of dashes those ideas instantly. He murders Sombrero, disfigures, Le Bossu, (all prior to getting in touch with Hurt) and drives Bruce mad as a hatter.

I'm not sure you're observations are all that accurate.
 
 
the Doctor
20:20 / 05.10.08
Well... I guess it COULD be the Devil.
Better than Darkseid, if you ask me.
 
 
This Sunday
20:41 / 05.10.08
How do you make it the Devil and not develop that past one issue? Morrison's set to continue on the title, true, but he has mentioned this as the end of his originally conceived story. Maybe he can do it, but no, I think it's actually much stronger, considering all the Satan and Satan worship stuff from earlier int he run, if it's a mortal, human enemy.

I'm also the only person on the planet, possibly, who actually really wants it to be Daddy Waynebucks. It'd be very healing for Batsy, I'd think, if his dad wasn't somebody to live up to forever.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:53 / 05.10.08
Only one person has the resources to pull off the Black Glove's intricate plot. Only one person has the resource and has worn the glove. Who?

Barbara Gordon, that's who.

Bird of Prey, and all that.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:09 / 06.10.08
cleaning glove soup Our Lady, in the last ish we know that Hurt is more than he appears to be, the Joker outright states it.

When were you thinking of? I was concentrating on the bit when the Joker insists there is no great Uberconspiracy and that it's all chaos. Of course, Batman can look at something and see a conspiracy of intrictae moving parts and the Joker can look at the same thing and see bloody chaos and they would both be right.

My theory for the day, a glove can be worn by anyone. The Black Glove is not one person. So, so far we have Bruce, Hurt and Jezebel all implicated. Anybody else? I'm thinking that the whole thing about the geography of the city is important, based on his conversation with the gargoyles... Crime Alley his delivery room, the blood of his parents the afterbirth... Stately Wayne Manor the heart, the Batcave the head, or is it the other way round, Arkham Asylum the mind's unconscious, the place of Jungian nightmares... ZOMG, Gotham City is the Black Glove!!1!
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
05:55 / 06.10.08
David Bowie says to Batty-Bruce at one point (don't have the exact quote/ish handy) something along the lines of:

Then I found out who Dr. Hurt really was and why he hates you so...
 
 
Triplets
16:39 / 06.10.08
Then I found out who Dr. Hurt really was and why he hates you so...

Because I'm awesome, and also Hugo Strange.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:57 / 06.10.08
At this point, it's a bit like seeing the Rolling Stones in concert, you know? You know their best work is behind them.

Back on the actual issue, this one seemed to be sketchier and ropier than the fun stuff of last issue. This is no doubt in part because of the need to pull the strings together, and to reinsert the Joker in a meaningful fashion, if only to justify the exercise in whimsy that was "The Clown at Midnight". The thread of the basic inadequacy of the Club of Villains is teased out (although that does raise the question of how shit is Nightwing?), but the problem with the mirroring of the inadequacy of the Club of Heroes is that it identifies the cracks in that mirror - the Joker is Batman, Hurt is Mayhew and of course Mayhew is, in some sense, the Black Glove, if only in the sense of wearing his face, and Hurt is the Black Glove and around, but where is it all going? If Hurt is deluded - imagining that the Joker is worried about missing Robin as he is doing what the Black Glove/Hurt/Mayhew did to the Club of Heroes (the Joker is... Wingman?), or believing himself (erroneously) to be Thomas Wayne or Alfred, then in what way is he menacing? His technique, as Dr Hurt and as Mayhew and as the Black Glove, has so far been to assemble threats to which the Batman is more than equal (the fake Batmen, the isolation tank, the Club of Villains and, ultimately, Jezebel Jet herself, another in a number of women involvement with whom, and the knowledge by whom of Batman's identity, has apparently not worked out well). What, simply put, is Hurt's villainous USP?

It's nice to see the son and Talia back, although the setup for an all-points-to-the-centre thrashfest is a little phoned in. They were some good lines (Batman is cool!) some bad lines that thought they were good lines, but which enough people, sir, will think are good lines to make no difference (wikipedia), and some nice set pieces (Batman asserting that the Batman never uses a gun, and then almost immediately pulling a knife to try to reach Jezebel). The pacing I found at times a little flabby - when Batman meets the Joker he might as well have ordered the soup - although the initial Zurr-en-Ah action sequences were taut and nice. I don't read solicits, but it really feels like the next issue has to be the end of the ark, yes? This can't get thrummed any further, surely.

And finally, sometimes publishing dates can lead to unintended coincidences, but the writer seems to be getting a bit keen on ball gags at the moment, and indeed on women who have previously been represented as paragons of goodness being corrupted or revealed as corrupt. It's all a bit ... Horny Mary Marvel. Not necessarily a good well to revisit too often.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:19 / 06.10.08
how shit is Nightwing?

Oh, tremendously shit, Haus. I thought that was well-established.

And, re: ball-gags, maybe we should try to resurrect that weird sexual subtexts in funnybooks thread -- whatever it was called? Because it is rather in the air of late with Morrison.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:31 / 07.10.08
At this point, it's a bit like seeing the Rolling Stones in concert, you know? You know their best work is behind them.

Sad but true, I think.

There's a lot to like about the RIP storyline (Bruce on smack, the demented Joker, Batmite etc) but does any of it really hang together? The pacing seems off, too much has been left unexplained (GM has got twenty three pages to finish this up, and I can't see how he's going to be able to do it, in a satisfactory manner) and ultimately, none of it feels like it's actually happening. In the way that say, Brubaker's 'Captain America' does.

If it ended with something like 'And then Bruce woke up, and it had all been a dream', then that rather cheap device would make perfect sense.

He's perhaps not given himself enough time, or just over-loaded the plot. Either way, I'd be surprised if this doesn't turn out to be a bit of a failure, art-wise.

With an issue to go, there's no real sense, IMVHO, of the Batman being in danger.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:01 / 07.10.08
For reference, the Rolling Stones comment was about Cleaningglovessoup and MFreitas, rather than Morrison.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:04 / 07.10.08
Mark the calender but I agree with Granny Gin-ness. The slight problem with RIP is that, since issue 1, we've not anything done to show that the Black Glove are particularly efficient, I know that what the Black Glove is/who it is is distinct from the Club of Villains, but to follow with several issues of the Club of Villains standing around being shit and then dispatched by either Batman or the Joker makes them, and the Black Glove by association, seem shit. And it would also be nice for a supervillain to manipulate the Joker for once, rather than letting him loose to kill off half the home team while waiting for Batman to show up. And why not have Jezebel not-die and not-be-evil? I know she's another red-black, because the Joker is incapable of seeing patterns and Batman is incapable of not seeing them but it's all a bit 'Dane eating the Archons' again isn't it? Yes, there might not have been any choice, but that doesn't mean it's not underwhelming when it happens.

And yes, the last time this happened, everyone was saying "How is Grant going to wrap this up in the space provided?" and it was Seven Soldiers #1 and the answer was: not very well.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
06:10 / 07.10.08
It may not be The Greatest Comics Ever Written, but I find this Batman run to be infinitely more enjoyable than 95% of the action/adventure books on the market. It is one of the few I look for in weekly shipping lists and that actually drives me into the shop when it ships.I am The Most Excited when I crack open a fresh issue of RIP.

Is there something out there topping this run right now that I'm missing?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:05 / 07.10.08
We can't do all the work for you, sir.

Let's start by actually looking at the issue. That doesn't mean guessing what happens next, in the belief that if you are right you and George Morrison will be psychic BFFs. Why do you like it? Don't just say how much you like it, or enumerate things that have happened in it that you liked. Engage with the text. Justify my battered faith that I am not wasting my time talking to people who not only have no critical faculties, but are actively opposed to developing any or indeed to thinking in any way. In short, provide some indication that you have not simply dampened the issue, rolled it into a tube, used it to achieve sexual nirvana and then discerned some key details from the ink marks left on your old chap.
 
 
Neon Snake
19:51 / 07.10.08
In short, provide some indication that you have not simply dampened the issue, rolled it into a tube, used it to achieve sexual nirvana and then discerned some key details from the ink marks left on your old chap.

Haus Junior is teh Black Glove!

Um. Haus, you are clearly mad. Morrison's run has been bloody good fun, from start to (near) finish, from batpoles to ninja manbats to rockets in the garden, through to smackbat and funny sombreros.

Whilst I think it's a shame that the speculation over the identity of the Black Glove has overtaken everything else (when the actual comics have given us no reason to suspect that it's anyone other than Hurt), that doesn't stop the stories themselves being great big dirty fun.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:54 / 07.10.08
Why do you like it? Don't just say how much you like it, or enumerate things that have happened in it that you liked. Engage with the text.
 
 
Neon Snake
20:02 / 07.10.08
batpoles to ninja manbats to rockets in the garden, through to smackbat and funny sombreros.

I can fill in the gaps inbetween, if you like?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:16 / 07.10.08
Don't just say how much you like it, or enumerate things that have happened in it that you liked.

Is it truly the case that the only things to which you have an aesthetic reaction are nouns? I doubt that. You've written at some length about music piracy, and I can't imagine that you would describe "Immigrant Song" as the statement of origin and the undertaking to knock things and people over, all the way through to the offering of a compromise solution post-ravaging.

Don't get me wrong. It's unfortunate that MFreitas and chums decided that it was unacceptable that anyone was allowed to talk about anything he couldn't understand - to wit, anything apart from being Grant Morrison's BFF by writing the best darn Batman fanfic around - but it has created what you might call a weight of expectation here.

As a result, for me at least, it's a bit of a test case. Is there any will to have any sort of discussion, or will any attempts to do so be shouted down? Will people, for example, call those who do anything other than transcribe the verbal twitches of their onrushing climax be called clearly mad for a statement that they have not actually made - a denial of some kind that Morrison's run has been bloody good fun. I have no idea where you are getting that idea that, In my madness, I have made any statement otherwise. Largely, I'm finding it enjoyable. This may be why I am hoping that there is yet some will actually to talk about it.
 
 
MFreitas
21:50 / 07.10.08
There he goes on "ignore" again...

It's truely unbelievable the efforts you make trying to provoke me and sink to your level. It's truely unbelievable how someone who just can't make a single valid contribution to this discussion only returns every time I try to bring something to this defunt topic. If you weren't so pathetic and so deserving of urgent psychological medical care, I'd probably laugh at you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:04 / 07.10.08
As a fool to his folly, indeed. I'm not quite sure where the dog vomit is, here. MFreitas, if we follow the metaphor, defecated on the floor, then later returned to the pile of poo and, forgetting that he had shat it earlier, ate a bit, then threw it up. So, yes. Probably there.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
00:13 / 08.10.08
Haus, please do me a favor and ignore me if you're not a fan of my contributions.

I find you to be one of those self deluded, pompous, individuals that mistakes actual intelligence for an overinflated vocabulary and excessive volume of words.

Please, please, please forget I exist or have me banned. You're harrassment and impotent attempts at verbal abuse are getting really fucking creepy and bordeline stalkerish, dude.

Can any other moderators please help with this?

And Batman is cool.
 
 
--
02:26 / 08.10.08
Eh, I don't know, maybe it's just me but I think that this is some of the best work that Grant Morrison's done since "The Filth." Ever since that title, he's been kind of hit or miss for me. I like some of the mini-titles he did (mainly "We3") but I found "Seven Soldiers" to be kind of a let-down (aside from an excellent opening and closing issue). But these last few months I've found myself really looking forward to each of his "Batman" issues, and it's been very rare that I've felt that way about a comic in awhile now. Hell, last week, for #280, the night before it came out I think I had 3 separate dreams about what the issue would be like, so it has certainly captured my attention. I'm not even sure why I like it so much. Maybe it's the gothic imagery and the references to obscure French writers, maybe it's the fact that I've always loved Batman and Grant Morrison's work so the combination of the two I like, most likely though it's because I'm really looking forward to see who the damn Black Glove actually is. I love how Morrison excels at setting up these big climatic ending issues, and while his track record is spotty for actually delivering the goods, I still enjoy the build-up at least (and it's not like he can't do a good ending... just look at "Doom Patrol" or "The Filth"). At the very least, I think #281 is supposed to be around 30 pages or so so he'll have more pages to work with.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:52 / 08.10.08
Morrison's run has been bloody good fun, from start to (near) finish, from batpoles to ninja manbats to rockets in the garden, through to smackbat and funny sombreros.

I can just about see this, if ninja manbats, etc, are your sort of thing. Personally though, they make me feel rather sad.

For what's presumably (not for the first time, but never mind about that) supposed to be the last Bruce as Batman storyline, it feels disappointingly low on gravitas. It should be a kind of psychedelic, pop art version of 'Dark Knight Returns', at least I'd be surprised if that wasn't the original idea, but it's a long way off that. And GM really doesn't have the space to turn things round now, I fear.

Perhaps it's a time thing though; I'd imagine he was after pulling the same (excellent) trick he managed in 'Doom Patrol'. But having less issues to play with, and also, crucially, far less sympathetic artists, he seems in serious danger of heading into 'New X-Men' territory with this.

It probably isn't going to be as confused as that, but personally, here's the thing; I don't want, as a comics fan, to have to sit around for hours afterwards trying to join the dots, in terms of what it all meant. Sub-text is fine, and quite pleasant to ponder, but that only applies if the text itself has been an enjoyable read.

As it is, dealing with Batman R.I.P. has often felt uncomfortably like attempting to work out the meaning of the pyramids, or related, after too much speed.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
03:22 / 08.10.08
Is there something out there topping this run right now that I'm missing?

Well, True Believer, I find myself buying more comics now than I have done in years, and years. Possibly, this is because I am going insane, but ... well anyway, I'd recommend 'The Boys', 'Captain America', 'The Darkness', 'Namor: The Depths' and, embarrassingly, perhaps, the 'Secret Invasion' tie-ins, rather than the thing itself. Jason Aarons on 'Black Panther' was especially good.

Plus 'Ultimate Spider-Man'. And Mark Millar's current run on 'Wolverine'.

I feel as if I've just admitted to being a deranged sexual lunatic, live on the interweb, but ... well all this stuff is material I look forward to more than 'Batman R.I.P.', in this life of mine.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:02 / 08.10.08
I find you to be one of those self deluded, pompous, individuals that mistakes actual intelligence for an overinflated vocabulary and excessive volume of words.

***

There was a point there, sir, and not the dissmissive spiteful one you attempted to reduce my post to. You seem to want to turn the community into an elitist, snub-hole. Perhaps that is what it is and always was. Doesn't seem to be very in line with any of the art that supposedly birthed this site.

Quoted without comment. Still waiting for an answer to the question:

Where on Earth did I suggest that your point was spiteful or dismissive, old chum? are you reading this stuff at all?

That's how easy it could be. A simple answer. Albeit one that does, sir, involve reading and thinking, rather than just wandering off.
 
 
Neon Snake
06:04 / 08.10.08
Will people, for example, call those who do anything other than transcribe the verbal twitches of their onrushing climax be called clearly mad for a statement that they have not actually made - a denial of some kind that Morrison's run has been bloody good fun. I have no idea where you are getting that idea that, In my madness, I have made any statement otherwise. Largely, I'm finding it enjoyable.

A misreading on my part, then. I got the impression that you were not finding it particularly enjoyable; I can't, in complete fairness, point to anything precise to back that up, other than a general feeling after your post which included lines like the problem with the mirroring of the inadequacy , and What, simply put, is Hurt's villainous USP?, and a little phoned in., and This can't get thrummed any further, surely. and so on. I'm not quoting to be facetious, more to attempt to put some evidence behind my general feeling. The post conveyed a general feeling of frustration that I took to mean that you aren't enjoying it.

And if you took my clearly mad comment as anything other than light-hearted, then I apologise for that, Haus, I mean't no offence by it, and expected it to be taken in jest.


Now, as rule, I tend not to analyse things if I'm enjoying them; I don't see it as time well-spent. The fact that I'm enjoying it is good enough for me. If I'm not enjoying something, I might spend some time working out why, and see if I can tease some enjoyment out of it after giving some thought to the matter. But, as it happens, I'm quite easily pleased, and find it quite easy to take enjoyment for stuff. That might mean that I'm largely uncritical, or lack critical facilities, but I'll be very clear that I view that as being a Good Thing in most instances. It makes my life more enjoyable.

I understand that Barbelith kind of expects more critical analysis of stuff, which is why my contributions to this thread have been somewhat limited, unless I've had questions to ask, or want to raise something that I've seen as an issue (Magical Negro, and my response to it).

Given time, I probably could describe why I find Morrison's Batman enjoyable, but I wouldn't do a very good job of it.

I'll give this some more thought when I have more time, but I'll try, briefly:

It is because it is FUN. The things I listed, batpoles, rockets, silly villains etc, are manifestations of that. There's a sense of larger-than-life antics and adventures about Morrison's run which tends to be missing from Batman comics. Typically, a Batman comic will try to ground itself in some sort of realism and seriousness, and I don't think that works very well. Morrison's run has cut itself free from that, in my opinion, and I think it is all the better for it. It is a comic-book that is unafraid to be a comic-book, with all the free-form elements that entails.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:48 / 08.10.08
I have to say, I find it quite hard to sum up what I like so much about stuff - in this case Batman - too. I'm surprised Lady draws a comparison between Bats and NXM, only because I really started to dislike NXM towards the end (cool future shock notwithstanding), and I've only enjoyed the batbook more and more as it's progressed.

I guess, yeah, there's the larger than life superheroics, the effortless juggling of so many bat-eras and modes it's hard to keep up, the sense of humour, the strangeness, the action, the confidence with which Morrison has introduced credible new baddies, the fact that he's never got bound up in all that tired, turgid 'I LOST MUMMY AND DADDY!' crap and has actually tried to explore the other ways Bats is fucked up (dead Robins, Bane fear, Joe Chill, actual madness)... but moreover I think it's just the overall feeling of the book. It has such an energy, which, especially in trade, is so well realised. Morrison often talks about books writing themselves, but in his Batman's case you can really feel it.

As for RIP, I guess it's horses for courses. I think I have felt the enemy as a credible threat - sure, there's some fodder there - but Hurt himself is one nasty, malevolent bastard. He's been torturing Batman on and off for years, and I just really felt Bruce being driven to his knees at the end of the last ish. There's a fever dream sickness to the red rooms and, well, the whole arc that is, for me, quite unsettling. I don't know, I can't help wondewring if we didn't already *know* roughly how this run was gonna turn out, whether or not those of you who aren't digging it and talking about 'inevitability' etc., might like RIP a lot more.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
11:53 / 08.10.08
Haus, I don't want to engage you simply because you seem more interested in a masturbatory verbal tug of war than anything else. Most of the PM's in my inbox read, Haus begets Haus, for your own sanity do not engage Haus.

You like to shit on ther people anonymously from your isolated little keyboard. I don't like that. I don't like people that do shit like that. In life I avoid people like that. Hence, I avoid you. You've got too much to prove and I'm not interested.

All this psychic BFF, comic book fucking, hero worship you prattle on about reveals more about your own psychosis than anyone else's. I'm a 31 year old man comfortable in my own skin and I don't have any interest in Int3rnetz Warz with you, whoever you are. But your obsession with my presence is fucking disturbing. If you want to talk comics, cool. If you want to talk about me personally, please go make a friend... they'll fill that void in your life for you. But, it ain't me babe.

If you'd like however, you can send me a check for the cover price of my entire GM Batman run, and I'll let you tell me how I should be enjoying my comics. Til then, grab a coke and a smile and... you can figure the rest out.

And that is my last say on the subject. I'm going back to ignoring you for months on end unless you want to engage me in a particular discussion about the actual comic in the topic. I post in like 3 threads on this entire board, there is plenty of Barbelith for you to be a virtual prick to people that care and allow that shit. You have to actively seek me out to even know I'm a member here.

Please. Leave. Me. The. Fuck. Alone.

Or bring it to my living, breathing face. It's all about RESPECT. That's how we do in South Jersey, son.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
12:02 / 08.10.08
Gin, I appreciate the response, but the only book you mentioned in there that really tickles my fancy is Millar's Wolvie run. Unfortunately that and Kick-Ass have both felt a little heavy on the empty calories for my taste. Heavily padded, stretched out storylines written to grab a few extra bucks for the same poundage of comic bookery.

Not horrible, just diluted.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:50 / 08.10.08
Plus, y'know, total bullshit.

I'd rather have a thousand ideas a second, than one extremely badly realised and painfully pleased with itself idea.

Kick Ass is one of the hollowest reading experiences available.
 
  

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