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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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Triplets
22:28 / 08.07.08
"the thin white duke of death’

The reference might imply that Joker is about to undergo another personality flip.

I don't know. Morrison's take on the Joker at the moment owes a lot to the cold, cool, calculated murderist of Miller's Dark Knight Reruns, which Miller has said owes a lot to Bowie, the original thin, white duke. I reckon we're just gonna see Bowie/Ichi the Killer Joker take the Club of Villains to school.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
23:33 / 08.07.08
I didn't know Miller had Bowie in mind with his vision of the Joker. That's very cool.
 
 
Quimper
14:42 / 09.07.08
Finally got my hands on flex mentallo. Thought the panel where he exclaims "Reality Dies at Dawn!" was familiar.
 
 
_Boboss
19:52 / 09.07.08
'thin white duke of death' is already a line from the prose issue, innit?
 
 
Neon Snake
12:30 / 11.07.08
Ok, serious question here, prompted by a nasty fight I've just come out of over on another board...

Did it occur to anyone else here that Honor Jackson was a racial stereotype?

Because I didn't even see his skin colour until someone else brought up that he fits incredibly neatly into the (new to me) "magical negro" archetype. And I am still having a fair amount of conceptual difficulty as seeing Jackson as anything other than yet another play on Tom O'Bedlam/Metron/Homeless Guy from WE3/Nobeard/Ali Ka-Zoom - but this one "happens" to be a black bloke.

Is this because I'm, in some sense, ignorant of racial stereotyping? Or reflective of the difference between the US and the UK (I'm English)?

Anyone else come across this?
 
 
This Sunday
12:41 / 11.07.08
He (in my opinion, of course) could have been the magical negro, yes, but because of the way he was handled, and because of the history of tropes the author uses, he did not hit me as such. That's not to say the thought never occured to me. He missed the subservience and other annoying features to properly fit the stereotype, even if, as a character, he's basically not a person, but a role, regardless of racial profiling or placating.
 
 
Spaniel
12:44 / 11.07.08
Botswana Beast gets his paws into the discussion over at the other place
 
 
Triplets
13:11 / 11.07.08
As Decadent says (with his fast, fast hands) he's could be both. I knew about the magical negro trope beforehand, and it did stick out. However, given George's use of the larger magical hobo trope in Thinvisibles I took it as one of his personal writing tics.
 
 
Spaniel
14:15 / 11.07.08
But, as Marc points out over in the Mindless Ones comments, does that make any difference? A harmful stereotype is still a harmful stereotype even if it is another iteration of on of a given creator's stock character types. The best we can hope for in this instance is that people will recognise that Honor's another one of those Grant Morrison characters, and therefore not read him as principally black.
 
 
Spaniel
14:18 / 11.07.08
Trips, correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you're trying to defend Morrison from accusations of racism, which you quite clearly don't need to do.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:38 / 11.07.08
The discussion seems more to be one of racial innocence, or clumsiness when dealing with race (a fascination with African-American culture experienced at the length of an arm, sort of thing) than actual racism. I had Honor Jackson down almost immediately, but feared the kind of response that any such comment was likely to get. I have a feeling Jezebel Jet may turn out to be a variant form of the tragic mulatta, also...
 
 
The Falcon
15:22 / 11.07.08
given George's use of the larger magical hobo trope in Thinvisibles I took it as one of his personal writing tics.

That was one of my initial rationalisations, and one which I threw No-Beard and Metron (in 7S:MM) into, but I don't think that either i) 'magical hobo' is a larger or more common trope or ii) that the manner into which the incidental character fits so neatly into - the probably larger bracket of - 'magical other' category can be overridden so easily.
 
 
Neon Snake
15:23 / 11.07.08
Hm.

Just read through the Mindless Ones post+comments, and the comments section from Marc Singer's blog.

The conversation between Duncan and Marc pretty much mirrors my own, from the initial denial based on the instory unimportance of the race of the character, and commonality of character in Morrison's work, from Tom O'Bedlam upwards; all the way through to acceptance that he fits the archetype like a glove. I don't particularly ascribe any inherent meaning to the archetype, or think that Honor should have been written differently.
I think it just kind of underlines (and responses elsewhere bear this out) that we in the UK have very little cogniscance of race relations in the US.
 
 
MFreitas
16:11 / 11.07.08
>all the way through to acceptance that he fits the archetype like a glove.

Like a glove? A black character... a glove... YES! A MAJOR clue!

Honor Jackson IS the Black Glove!

*End DCboards moment*
 
 
Uatu.is.watching
16:46 / 11.07.08
It doesn't fit, and if it doesn't fit, you must aquit!
 
 
This Sunday
23:31 / 11.07.08
A further thought on the Morrison and any "racial innocence" is that Honor doesn't do anything magical that is tied to his ethnicity, at least not that I can recall. This is actually, for my tastes, a big step forward for Morrison, as the racial profiling of magicks was the one thing in The Invisibles that never sat right with me. So the magicks aren't voodoo or innate African mystico-wisdom, he isn't a salt of the earth servant running and fetching for Mr. Wayne, and in the end, he's a dead guy who already failed himself. He's not serving or lauding or playing lackey to Wayne, no bleeding chickens or aw shucks submissiveness. He's just doing a guy a favor who once did him one.

I get the feeling anyone who is heavily leaning towards this as an egregious example has some racial and cultural issues of their own to reexamine.
 
 
This Sunday
01:53 / 12.07.08
Jezebel Jet may turn out to be a variant form of the tragic mulatta, also...

As opposed to all the totally happy-end-getting romantic entanglements of Bruce's life? Seriously, if you replace her with Silver St. Cloud, or any major female role in a Bat-movie since nineteen eighty-nine, is there that big a difference?

She is, perhaps, being set up as a tragic love interest, but she hasn't the weepy I walk between worlds vibe of a sub-Susan Straight narrative, and there hasn't been any creepy alchemical metaphor yet (Has there?), so I think we're probably safe.

That Australia 52 cover? The Invisibles trope of only white people being allowed to be modern in their magicks, or to use some not designated them by blood and heritage? DP's awkward racial examinations, utilisations? Some of the bad-joke bits of the Club of Heroes arc from this very title? Where this red/black thing may be going with regard to characters, if it's not something internal to the story? Morrison's got some history being connected to comics with dodgy ethnic and ethnicising material, but with Honor and especially with J (Mozzer wants to sleep with black women can't ya just tell!) Jet, I'm just (possibly willfully) not seeing it.
 
 
Neon Snake
08:19 / 12.07.08
But, as Marc points out over in the Mindless Ones comments, does that make any difference? A harmful stereotype is still a harmful stereotype even if it is another iteration of on of a given creator's stock character types.

Yes, I think it does make a difference, in some way. If the term is not to be robbed of any meaning through over-application, then it should be evaluated for intent on a case-by-case basis.

People bring up Orpheus/Oracle as examples. Seems fairly cut and dried, until you throw in that Will Smith turned down the role of Neo. Had it been Smith in the role, then the whole argument would be null and void with no change to the roles of Orpheus/Oracle.

Whilst I accept that Jackson fits the archetype - I don't think it's worthwhile to just accept the definition of the archetype without examining it. Unless the character is doing something that is race-specific, or there is clear racism bound up in the context, then I don't think that he can be accurately called "magical negro". And if he can, then I'd question how good/useful the (existing)definition is.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:29 / 12.07.08
I get the feeling anyone who is heavily leaning towards this as an egregious example has some racial and cultural issues of their own to reexamine.

Hmm. Is that not just a more intricately spelled version of "U R t3h real rascist LOL"?
 
 
Spaniel
09:50 / 12.07.08
Yeah, that's a very dodgey argument, Snake. One that we've seen rehearsed many, many times here, and one that generally holds no water whatsoever.
 
 
This Sunday
10:34 / 12.07.08
I get the feeling anyone who is heavily leaning towards this as an egregious example has some racial and cultural issues of their own to reexamine.

Hmm. Is that not just a more intricately spelled version of "U R t3h real rascist LOL"?


Hm. No.

Wasn't it you that suggested this wasn't about racism as much as innocence? I'm finding much of the support for the idea that these characterizations (Honor and Jezebel) are racially motivated to be naive, is all.

I accept that my reading may be off, that it may be reflexively forgiving or that maybe I missed stuff. If I was going to shoot for "I know you are, but what am I?" I'd just haved typed that and been done with it.

I am interested in seeing a case for Jezebel as tragic mulatta, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:40 / 12.07.08
For the record, I was quoting Decadent Daytripper, but it's worth noting, NS, that the knowledge imparted by the magical negro need not be racially specific: Marc Singer addresses this in the original comments section to Wolk's review.

Of course, there is a question about how much this matters, and indeed what one's expectations should be. When reading mainstream American superhero comic books, perhaps one just has to accept that the editorial and writing staff are disproportionately white and male (disproportionately even for mainstream media, possibly), and generally disproportionately shielded from interaction with people who are not white and male, because the fandom, media and general audience of mainstream superhero comics are also disproportionately white and male. Therefore that anyone in that milieu writing about the African-American or other black experience (or, indeed, about women, although there are more mechanisms facilitating interaction there, not least, often, the mechanism of love) is likely to be doing it at something approaching arm's length; in that context, I'm not sure that the UK/US dichotomy is as important as is being presented, in of nuanced an approach we can expect. I think Morrison deserves credit for his involvement in the DC push towards a more representative (of the US, primarily) cast, but there's a lag - you might Jaime Reyes as Blue Beetle, but Keith Giffen is still writing the character.

All of which has wandered a bit from Zurr-en-Ah; I suppose my thinking is that this sort of possible betise is perhaps worth seeing as part of a deeper issue.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:42 / 12.07.08
Boboss, how so?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:46 / 12.07.08
I'm finding much of the support for the idea that these characterizations (Honor and Jezebel) are racially motivated to be naive, is all.

But that's not all, is it? You are saying that they are being put forward by people who have racial and cultural issues of their own to reexamine - I think those are distinct, and that the one is quite a lot more specific than the other. If you jut mean that you think the analysis is naive, I think that would be a different position from what I thought you meant, which was how your original statement read to me - which followed some of the comments to Wolk's review - that the problem here was that the issue was being read through inappropriate PC filters that revealed only the secret racism of the readers.
 
 
This Sunday
11:29 / 12.07.08
...the problem here was that the issue was being read through inappropriate PC filters that revealed only the secret racism of the readers.

Certainly not. For one thing, I cringe at refering to anything, straightfaced, as PC anything. I do admit to trying, maybe a bit too hard, to work within the bounds of discussing racial issues without using the term racist, no matter how applicable it may literally be, because it has social connotations that are harsher than what it necessarily means. Naivete or innocence are more useful to the discussion. That may have encouraged some misreading, and I'll apologise readily for my part in any misunderstanding caused by that carefulness.

If anything, I'm reminded of my initial response to the James Duval in Donnie Darko, when I was very Fuckittyfuck, it's his Indian Spirit Guide! and then had to sit back and, no, I don't think it was. I reacted, initially, to the Honor scenes the same way, but I dismissed the concern and I think I was right to do so. I don't think it was in the scene as much as it was in me, and I haven't seen much in other's comments to suggest that it really is in fact a problem in the material and not the reading, theirs or mine.
 
 
Spaniel
17:48 / 12.07.08
Er, actually it's not so at all. Mixed your comments up with DD's, which I skimmed, and started pontificating without justification.

Ignore the Boboss.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
18:15 / 12.07.08
In Donnie Darko, Frank the Bunny seemed to be (at least) upper-middle class and was getting it on with Maggie G. So the character isn't some social or sexual neuter dreamed up by the writer.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
04:02 / 13.07.08
mildly off-topic:

DDT, speaking from a Brazilian point of view, for example, Jim Crow was great in THE INVISIBLES.

next time in Brazil ask to be taken to a "terreiro" and you'll see an adapted version of an African religion in loco and perfectly integrated with the local context - specially one which was mostly euro-centered, but it's really the infamous "melting pot" of the History books and blends Catholicism, Voodoo and native-south-american beliefs.

and Jim Crow was allowed to portray a modern version of those Voodoo practises; his solo issue is a great example. another black character, Girl, was also a influenced by her own environment:

a realistic, skeptical blue collar former NY cop, she called it quits when it all felt too much for her after having her personality split and reorganized.

Lord Fanny, though, was a real problem to me: although Rio was well written, her faith system was almost completely out of the context with Brazil - at most she should have been a Tupan worshipper or something. GM should probably have never made her a Brazilian, but a Mexican, tops. that is, if our fellow Mexican boardmates agree she wouldn't pass as a stereotype.

I don't see the problem of having white writers scripting black characters or male writers scripting female characters; a writer is paid to make things up - and a good writer will properly create a 3-dimensional context with 3-dimensional players, a bad writer won't. a writer is either someone with a lot of life experience or someone who can imagine all that he\she has not lived, but fool us greatly in a good way. if that wasn't the case male writers would only be able to come out with stuff like RESERVOIR DOGS, which if i'm not mistaken has not a single woman in sight. obviously Wonder Woman could have used more female writers, but you know what i mean.

some comments here took me back to P4ty C0ckrum pulling the anti-Semitism card because of Magneto's portrayal, which doesn't sound good. although you could argue that Scotland has a very small contingent of black people, Honor Jackson doesn't fit the 'magic negro' stereotype as much as the 'magic hobo' archetype, which is present in many cultures.

if the Black Glove's origin\motivation will be revealed as coming down to class warfare, a magic hobo is only fitting in Wayne's journey down and out in Gotham's heaven and hell.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:15 / 13.07.08
Boboss, no worries.

Haus:

it's worth noting, NS, that the knowledge imparted by the magical negro need not be racially specific: Marc Singer addresses this in the original comments section to Wolk's review.

I agree with that; however what I'm saying is that there is nothing within the character that depends on his race. Had the character been white, nothing else would have needed changing, he would have worked just as well. Further, there's nothing in the larger context of the story, or the book, that implies that the character's race is important.

With that in mind, I'd say that whilst Jackson ticks all the necessary boxes, as previously defined, of "magical negro", there aren't actually any racial connotations within the character except those associated with the stereotype.

That being the case, I think it's worth re-examining the definition to ensure that it's meaningful; the risk, as I see it, of applying it in cases like this is that it ceases to be meaningful.

(Not that I'm pretending that a Batman comic is going to have any effect on the larger world, but you know what I mean.)
 
 
at the scarwash
18:41 / 13.07.08
The problem with the Magical Negro role is not something implicit in a person of color playing a Mentor figure, but that it is a repeated trope in narratives with a white main character. After dispensing wisdom and guidance to the main character, the Magical Negro shuffles back off into the corner to let his newly-enlightened charge save the day, get the girl, etc. Hero-narratives need a Yoda figure. I think that distaste with the Magical Negro stems more from the implied subservience and denial of agency created by the Mentor-figure not being the hero. I think that there is nothing wrong at base with this set up in a story; the problem lies with the lack of heroes of color.

In a situation such as an ongoing, continuity-obsessed superhero comic such as Batman, a writer is hobbled from the beginning by the simple fact that Batman and his main supporting cast were created and established in an era where such portrayals as there were of persons of color were deeply flawed and offensive, where heroic characters were always white, and so the main cast was necessarily white. So any walk-ons, supporting characters, or love interests introduced by a writer with an eye towards diversifying the cast will necessarily be secondary roles. From time to time a writer succeeds in establishing a character who outlives their own run, but that's fairly rare.

What is Morrison to do? Not write any black characters at all? He has consistently tried to diversify his work more meaningfully than any other mainstream comics writer, and from reading him one gets the feeling that this is something very important to him. Should he only have black characters that are completely positively-portrayed, heroic ciphers who never end in tragedy or betray their ideals, keeping his beloved "outsider with wisdom"-figures resolutely whitewashed? Somehow I don't think that would make anyone happy either.
 
 
HCE
21:16 / 13.07.08
After dispensing wisdom and guidance to the main character, the Magical Negro shuffles back off into the corner to let his newly-enlightened charge save the day, get the girl, etc.

You might find this phenomenon to be of interest, as there seem to be similarities to what you're describing:

Rose Catherine Pinkney, executive vice president of programming and production for TV One, a cable network targeted to black audiences, was one of the few TV or film industry executives willing to talk about BBF syndrome, saying: “It’s wonderful that studios recognize great talent. And there’s more diversity, so it looks like the world. But it’s a shame that studios also don’t have the courage to put these actresses in leads.”

Some say it’s unfair to even categorize BBFs – it undermines the talent of the actors and actresses who work hard to win their roles, they say, and ignores the fact that some of these roles didn’t necessarily call for an African American performer.

But Pinkney, a former Paramount Studios executive, added, “Historically, people of color have had to play nurturing, rational caretakers of the white lead characters. And studios are just not willing to reverse that role.”
 
 
MFreitas
21:07 / 17.07.08
On with the show. We've wasted way too much time discussing magical negroes and tragic mulatas and over-intellectualised mumbo-jumbo whatsoever.

The time: 40 to 35 years ago. John Mayhew in his 20s directs "The Black Glove" movie, starring Mangrove Pierce and Marsha Lamarr, Mayhew's 5th wife. Mangrove and Marsha have an affair. She gets pregnant and a boy is born. Mayhew finds out the baby isn't his, has his wife killed and frames Mangrove Pierce for the murder. The Waynes provide Mayhew with an alibi. Pierce is arrested and the baby boy is given for adoption. He temporarly lives with the Waynes before getting a new home.

30 years ago (1977, May 9th). "Gotham's Hurt missing". Hurt was a philantrope just like Thomas Wayne. He even ended up adopting a boy Thomas Wayne previously sheltered. He named him Simon. Simon Hurt. But where is he now?

27 to 25 years ago. Mangrove Pierce is released on parole for good behaviour. He adopts or reassumes the name Joe Chill. "Mangrove Pierce" was probably an alias, common among actors, like Pennyworth's "Alfred Beagle". He resents the rich and powerful ("And then you look at all this privileged jerks, these doctors and lawyers and millionaires and their trophy wives..."). Since Mayhew is in seclusion and nowhere to be found, Chill goes after the Waynes to have his revenge. He kills Thomas and Martha, but lacks the guts to do young Bruce ("I shoulda shot the kid right there -- Three for three - But he was like my own boy. The son I lost.")

He says "3 for 3", not "3 in 3"; "3 for 3": Thomas, Martha and Bruce for Marsha, his son "Simon" and himself.

Circa 15 years ago. Joe Chill, formerly known as "Mangrove Pierce", is now a mid-ranking crime boss, having built a legitimate front, the "Land, Sea, Air Transport Company". Batman haunts him for a whole month until he breaks in despair and kills himself. Somewhere down the line, Simon Hurt learns everything about his past, including the fact Batman lead his real father to commit suicide. And from who does he learn it? From the Black Glove. Simon Hurt is his bet on Evil; Bruce Wayne is his bet on Good. But who is the Black Glove? Simon Hurt is now resentful of the rich and powerful, just like his father before him.

15 to 10 years ago. Dr.Simon Hurt is a psychologist for the army and does a deep research on the Batman. He learns everything he can about him and everything else FROM him, through the 10-day isolation chamber experiment. He creates the 3 replacement Batmen and plants hypnotic trigger words on all 3 of them and in Batman as well (Zur-En-Arrh). He now knows Batman as no one else.

Some months ago. Batman goes through the Thorgal ritual in Nanda Parbat to purge himself from the demons, only to find out later those demons were the only thing putting him together. He enters the temple in Nanda Parbat to reintegrate the demons again. He returns to Gotham fully reinvigorated and puts an end to all crime in Gotham. That's when things start to happen: the 3 replacement Batmen reemerge; Batman remembers the Black Casebook and the Isolation Chamber experiment; John Mayhew returns; Dr.Hurt returns.

WHY NOW?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:57 / 17.07.08
On with the show. We've wasted way too much time discussing magical negroes and tragic mulatas and over-intellectualised mumbo-jumbo whatsoever.

Shut the fuck up, you hopeless dickwit. Your fanfiction is a waste even of the very small amount of time spent teaching you how to write.

You're right, this rejection of actual discussion in favour of disrespecting whatever one doesn't feel like reading is fun, droolcock.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:43 / 17.07.08
That wasn't very nice, was it? Wouldn't it have been nicer if I hadn't called you a waste of space and your opinion worthless? Wouldn't that have been better for everyone?
 
 
MFreitas
22:43 / 17.07.08
Are you a reject from DC Boards? Then stop acting like one.
 
  

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