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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
13:02 / 08.10.08
I become better than other people the moment they demonstrate that I am totally clueless, also.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:00 / 08.10.08
The Natural Way I'm surprised Lady draws a comparison between Bats and NXM,

Did I? When?


And anyone asking for moderator action, PM me your user name and password and I'll put Haus on ignore for you as you seem unwilling to do it yourselves.
 
 
Neon Snake
17:50 / 08.10.08
I become better than other people the moment they demonstrate that I am totally clueless, also.

Who's that directed at, Haus? I'm tired, my mindreading abilities are poor, and it's pretty cryptic anyway.
 
 
Neon Snake
17:55 / 08.10.08
I think that if I've got any problem with R.I.P, it's that the mystery surrounding the Black Glove has overtaken the rest of the story. What concerns me more is that the entire mystery is based off interview comments; there is nothing in the comic that would hint, had we not been told, that the Black Glove is anyone other than Simon Hurt.

I've said that before, but as the next issue is apparently the big reveal, the speculation is reaching fever pitch, and I think a great many people are beginning to steel themselves for disappointment, since the reveal can never match the speculation and expectation that people (Morrison included) have invested in the story.

I think it's a real shame. I think that, had people not been looking for clues everywhere, and just been reading the comic in a more 'standard' fashion, then it wouldn't have had this weight of expectation on it, which it can hardly hope to meet in the next issue.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:01 / 08.10.08
Who's that directed at, Haus?


Forgive my lack of clarity. To elucidate: this is how we do it in South Jersey, son.



Back on track - one of the interesting things about recent Morrison generally, and this Batman in particular, is that it's being hailed as the return to Silver Age values primarily I think by people with a limited exposure to the Silver Age - I count myself in this group, since I didn't read comics in my halcyon 40s and 50s (too busy going through a series of ruinous divorces), so have only really read the things people have recommended or collected as emblematic of the Silver Age. So, although there are certainly _accents_- the old hairy-chested love god, the Man-Bat, the Club of Heroes - there are also some fairly sizeable differences - for example, the Bane analogue is repeatedly raping and murdering prostitutes, which rape and murder is shown rather more clearly than the Silver Age would have allowed. Speedy takes heroin in The Brave and the Bold, but the effects of heroin, when not fatal, don't extend very much further than being a bit whiny - the drugs were mainly being taken by the writers rather than the characters in the Silver Age. Given the sudden outbreak of ballgags, maybe this retread can be the Silicon Age.

Not that this is a bad thing at all - there's no real need for loving rereations - but it's intriguing to watch how the love of the silver age in the writer, and the perception of the silver age through the eyes of the writer experienced by the reader, are interacting. In many ways it reminds me of Geoff Johns, a man who clearly has tremendous affection for the Justice Society of America, Infinity Inc and all points south, but who also really enjoys having his characters pull each other's arms off. It's the delicate tension between formalism and modernism that characterises so much great modern art.
 
 
Neon Snake
18:36 / 08.10.08
Fair enough, gotcha.




I'm not sure about the Silver Age comments; I've had an individual ascribe their dislike of All-Star Superman to it's 'silver-ageness', which was apparently present in it's use of Atlas, Hercules, that kind of pseudoscience that Morrison uses (basement level of the universe), but not so much in relation to his Batman. In relation to certain elements, sure; the obvious stuff such as bringing actual silver-age stories back into continuity, for example, but I've not seen it used so much at a topline level in relation to the run.

Unless people are automatically equating the 'fun' elements, the 'silly' elements, with the Silver Age, maybe.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:23 / 08.10.08
Speedy takes heroin in The Brave and the Bold, but the effects of heroin, when not fatal, don't extend very much further than being a bit whiny - the drugs were mainly being taken by the writers rather than the characters in the Silver Age. Given the sudden outbreak of ballgags, maybe this retread can be the Silicon Age.

Would you call that "Silver" Age, though? It's very much a product of the "relevant" Seventies/Eighties, which I thought was more the "Bronze Age." The current outcropping of Johns arm-pulling and sick-hearted comics doesn't feel like a remix of the Silver Age as it does a return to the Bronze Age of pseudo-relevance, with some ostensibly Silver Age bits added on -- and you don't even need to add that many bits, because that's what the Bronze Age was about anyway.

As for the Mystery of the Black Glove, does it really undermine things, Neon Snake, if people are over-reading and annotating in search of the secret identity? Mystery fiction is generally accompanied by readers trying to figure out the solution along with the hero, looking at the clues placed before them. Batman's part of that tradition, even if there are whole swathes of time when people forget to emphasize his detection skills. There might be something to say about fandom's general neurotic tendencies in this area, but Batman's connected with mysteries, and mystery fans are usually out to solve the mysteries too...
 
 
Neon Snake
19:45 / 08.10.08
As for the Mystery of the Black Glove, does it really undermine things, Neon Snake, if people are over-reading and annotating in search of the secret identity?

If they're still enjoying it, then it undermines it not in the slightest, and good on 'em.

I've seen a few comments here and there that lead me to believe that people are more interested in the mystery than the story; I can't see how the final identity of the Black Glove can be shocking or satisfying to someone who's entire/main reason for reading is to work that mystery out. I think that there will be a lot of disappointed folk next month, folk who wouldn't have been disappointed if they were less invested in the mystery.
 
 
--
22:19 / 08.10.08
Yeah, but didn't Morrison say that the revelation of the Black Glove would be like one of the most shocking things to ever happen in Batman's 70 year history? With comments like that, you can't really blame fans for being obsessed.

I am really looking forward to seeing the true identity of the Black Glove. At the same time, I'm also curious about Bruce Wayne's final fate, what's going to happen to the Joker/Simon Hurt/the rest of the club of villains, etc.
 
 
This Sunday
04:44 / 09.10.08
Why haven't we seen a Man of Bats villain in the Club, yet?

I want Mr. Owns-a-Grocery-Store to be a big corporate type who owns, among other things, grocery shops. But, sadly, he may just be too crap to warrant an appearance.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:52 / 09.10.08
I can't help but think that any half-competent takedown of Batman would involve blowing up the Batcave and Stately Wayne Mansion, at least attempting to kill Alfred, ruining Wayne Industries and then making with the turning off of his sanity. Bane showed more intelligence than Hurt, and he was on drugz!
 
 
Neon Snake
06:14 / 09.10.08
Yeah, but didn't Morrison say that the revelation of the Black Glove would be like one of the most shocking things to ever happen in Batman's 70 year history? With comments like that, you can't really blame fans for being obsessed.

Oh, I agree completely. And I think that comment was a pretty silly thing to say, because I can't see how it really will be that shocking, and remain satisfying. Most of the speculation has been driven by interview comments (He's been there from the beginning, most shocking reveal ever, etc), and not from the comics themselves - even the idea that the Black Glove's id is a mystery is only driven by an interview comment.

And don't let me give you the impression that I'm not personally curious myself - I am, very much so; and I've made my share of guesses (Joe Chill or his son). It's just that to me, it's kind of academic, and not as important as the actual story itself.

I've just seen a lot of people who are treating the entire run as nothing more than a series of clues to the id of the Black Glove, and are picking it apart looking for that, whilst ignoring the actual stories and themes within the issues. And I can't help but think they'll be disappointed when we get the answer. Take a look at the DC Boards, and you'll see what I mean.
 
 
andrewdrilon
07:01 / 09.10.08
RE: Silver Age comments. I don't think the run has been solely confined to Silver Age updates either. Granted, there have been updates, references and incorporations of Silver Age elements, but I also think there are specific homages or allusions to certain writers/era's per story arc.

The Manbats arc felt like the 'hairy chest', sexy adventure globe-trotting Mike W.Barr Batman.

The Joker prose story was an O'Neil homage/update (spliced with Steve Aylett/Jeff Noon prose style maybe; that was kinda crazy.)

The Bane/Bats arc dove into Frank Miller xxxtreme with the drugs and prostitutes and bad cops; with alpha male testosterone maxxx even serving as a crucial plot point.

The Club of Heroes arc felt like early Legends of the Dark Knight for me; gothic mystery, still globe-trotty, but more mystery than adventure.

And the Third Ghost Batman arc was like Arkham Asylum + 90s excess to me; torture porn plus disjointed narratives plus Satanism, symbolism etc etc. There was also an outright Bill Finger credit there, thus my theory's era consistency is kinda getting muddled.

I have no guess as to what the Damian Future Batman one-off was referencing (or the Resurrection x-over which no one likes to talk about), if they were referencing any particular writer or era at all. No guess either about R.I.P. thus far; perhaps it's an attempt at incorporating all the styles/references but it leans toward some directions more than others.

Anyhoo, patooty-talk aside, Bat-Mite is best and everyone should have one.
 
 
Triplets
17:06 / 09.10.08
Bat-Might IS best.
 
 
Triplets
17:07 / 09.10.08
I want Mr. Owns-a-Grocery-Store to be a big corporate type who owns, among other things, grocery shops.

Like... a Morrisons? Dun dun dun!
 
 
andrewdrilon
23:56 / 09.10.08
With a mascot from the 5th dimension!
 
 
Alex's Grandma
03:22 / 10.10.08
I am really looking forward to seeing the true identity of the Black Glove.

I was, but not so much now. Especially as it turns out anyone interested's going to have to check out 'Final Crisis' for the denouement of whatever this is all about.

It strikes me Batman R.I.P. might be an attempt by Grant to make the reader feel how Batman would when he's fighting the Joker, which is a bit ennervated, after being thrown curveball after clue after riddle at such a frenetic pace that no one notices, least of all Batman, that behind all the posturing, all the bon-mots and the painted smile, there's nothing much going on.

If so, (and I'm probably reaching a bit), it might bode well for Grant's next own-brand material. Has a writer ever been more sympathetic to the Joker's antics? He's pretty much the P.O.V. character in Arkham Asylum, and there are other examples. So is the transformation of Grant's demented, but relatively affable 'party guy' Joker into the current blank-eyed psychopath indicative of something profound going on in the writer's soul? I'm thinking Bill Drummond at the end of the KLF, when he brought that dead sheep along to the Brit awards. Pranksterism curdling into Nihilism. Grant's always been keen on his Trickster figures, after all - from Mr Nobody onwards they've often seemed like stand-ins for the author. So are we to infer, from his portayal of the Joker here, that the full raging horror of the mid-life crisis to end them all is, when he gets back to creator-owned work, about to be unleashed on an unsuspecting public?

Or is this just bollocks?



Which might mean that
 
 
Speedy
04:10 / 10.10.08
Sorry if I’m stepping on your post, Old dear; I’m composing offline so just popping back a couple of posts before I digest yours …

The notion of referencing and revisiting the styles, tics and subject matter of past eras of comics and synthesising them into new storytelling forms is clearly a major Morrison bag in recent years. New X-Men gave us a grand tour through the hits and highpoints of the comic’s past. Seven Soldiers took a sampling of superhero comics styles from various genres, eras and writers, and mashed and updated them.

If that’s the case here with the Bat-mythos, it occurs to me that GM would want to include his take on that acknowledged classic series from the high Bronze Age – the Englehart/Rogers Detective run. So I’d like to add it to andrewdrilon’s thought-provoking catalogue.

I don’t know if the style or even mood has been particularly mirrored in the present stories, but there are certainly a few elements with similarities: introduction of a new love interest in Jezebel Jet (Silver St Cloud even gets a name check), revival of an obscure villain from the earliest days of Bat history in Dr Hurt (Hugo Strange, who is, to boot, a psychiatrist who knows Batman’s secret ID [maybe Lady is right and that’s who TBG will turn out to be]), the assembling of a rogues gallery to witness the breaking of the Batman, and a striking recasting of the Joker.

Why not borrow from the best?

As a strategy for engaging the modern reader, I find this very appealing. I think Morrison also makes a genuine attempt to rehabilitate even the worst tropes from what might be seen as regrettable styles and eras. They might have been bad, but they were often popular, and to some readers the prostitute-murdering, back-breaking stuff may well be the bees knees.

I don’t imagine there’d be many present readers who also read the Zur-En-Arrh story when it first came out (!), but because of widely-available reprints and the resources on the www, I guess it’s reasonable to assume that there’d be quite a few with some familiarity now. If you aren’t familiar, it’s easy to get up to speed. AND, with access to message boards and insightful blogs, possibly to get way ahead of the story before it’s even done.

And here I think that Morrison goes even further by acknowledging and incorporating into his storytelling this present mode of reading. I think we’re meant to speculate, connect the dots, elucidate the references, etc., as part of the experience. “Entertain Yourself” indeed! The balance between the actual story and the ex-text elements provided by the reader is the tricky bit to get right though. Some readers may feel short-changed in getting what may only be the diagram of a story; others relish the opportunity to flesh it out.
 
 
Speedy
04:16 / 10.10.08
Whoops, Freewheeling Penis, not Lady, with the Hugo Strange theory :-)
 
 
Speedy
06:54 / 10.10.08
Just to try and link up with Old dear. Gin. Problem.’s post above …

The Joker’s now famous remark “It’s not Wikipedia” may well be an attempt to provide a genuine shock to the system for the Jog/Beastmaster/annotation-reading crowd. The Joker gets to spin out Batman; while Morrison pulls the rug out from under any comfortable notions his readers may have been entertaining. He puts THIS guy in some other, scarier space …

Bummer for Batman; a disquieting slap in the face for a certain brand of reader!

Well, maybe … If so, it’s a good trick!
 
 
Neon Snake
07:15 / 10.10.08
I certainly read it like that, but that might be confirmation bias on my part (is that the right phrase?).

On the other hand, it's still well worth putting some thought into what's going on in the story; I just think that the Black Glove 'mystery' has overtaken everything else. There's a whole load of stuff going on, not all of it is a clue towards to Black Glove.
 
 
Speedy
09:31 / 10.10.08
That’s true, but as posters above note, the present arc is ostensibly a mystery story. And, as an ongoing comic serial, it’s one in which readers have the opportunity to play along, outside and with other people, as it unfolds. I suppose the only other medium in which this opportunity is afforded is that of the tv series. (I can only imagine how baroque the theories being expounded on, say, the Lost message boards must be!)

No doubt, too much plot speculation can be a bad thing :-)

It’s probably not too wise a bet to make that Morrison will pull off a really satisfying resolution to the mystery schtick - but I’m sure we’d all love to be happily surprised! I'll take a play fair solution or some meta trick; both together would be good.

As to talking about other stuff in the story, well I got nothin’ at the moment …

There are a few of GM’s recent favourite themes popping up in the whole series though, eg., parents (particularly fathers) and children; heroes and those who emulate them (I had a thing in my mind for a while about the Club of Heroes and online comics fan communities, but it was pretty crap); general stuff about growing up and/or transforming oneself.

Nothing coherent I'm afraid. Anyone else here?
 
 
This Sunday
10:28 / 10.10.08
There are a few of GM’s recent favourite themes popping up in the whole series though, eg., parents (particularly fathers) and children; heroes and those who emulate them (I had a thing in my mind for a while about the Club of Heroes and online comics fan communities, but it was pretty crap); general stuff about growing up and/or transforming oneself.

These all seem relatively central to Batman and Bat-stories, more than Morrison-specific, though. Fathers and sons (Thomas and Bruce, Alfred and Bruce, Bats and Robin), hero emulation (Bruce and his father, Bruce and Zorro, Bats and Robin), and transformation (Yes, Father, I shall become a bat) are all hardly innovative angles to approach the character or the world.

Morrison's doing very well at approaching the character and world, for my money, but he isn't really breaking new ground here, except maybe in deftness at moments.

And, to address the collusion of Silver Age and BatBane sexing and killing prostitutes, I figure somebody should mention Bane did just that. In the Knightfall novelization, at least, it's a crime the PD try to pin on Batman as an excuse to go after him again. Because Bane was carving little bats in the corpses.

O'Neil used it to parallel Bat's (at the time canonical) abstinence and supposed loathing of violence. After the back breaking, he realizes he quite likes kicking the shit out of people and would possibly enjoy sex sometime soon.

So it's pretty much just callbacks to Knightfall era, the Dark Age or whatever.
 
 
Speedy
11:20 / 10.10.08
So the idea Morrison doing a survey of Bat-history, mixing it up and distilling it for his run might apply to his approach to story styles/genres, plot points and themes as well?

I'll buy that.

As to the question of the Silver Age quality, I'm definitely not getting that from this Batman run.

GM's well-known regard for the late sixties/early seventies comics (those of his childhood) translates in his stories into outlandish concepts told with as much compression as he can get away with, and a brightness and lightness of touch.

All-Star Superman is a more pure expression of this Silver impulse. Something that one could easily and interestingly synopsize for a six-year-old ("Superman flies to the SUN to RESCUE SOME ASTRONAUTS ... As opposed to, say, "Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman have a really long talk about who should join their superhero club ...")

***
Oh, maybe you could interest a kid in that, if you did funny voices.
 
 
--
03:44 / 11.10.08
To be honest, I don't even know what the hell this "Final Crisis" even is. Is it going to be a single issue, is it a series, or what?

I never even knew about this DCU #0 until recently either. I hear it ties in with Morrison's "Batman" run, so I must have missed something there. This is why I hate crossovers.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
04:12 / 11.10.08
Final Crisis is a 7 issue mini with some tangential tie-ins.

The stuff from DCU0 was a riff on the beginning convo in Killing Joke. Batman visits Joker in Arkham, Batman interrogates him regarding The Black Glove, gets dealt the Dead Man's Hand that was heavily referenced last ish and Joker pantomimes a suicidal headshot in reference to Bruce's inquiries about the identity of the TBG!

Shot in a lovely (well, not really) Black (Joker)and Red (Bruce) color scheme.
 
 
Triplets
21:04 / 12.10.08
Joker pantomimes a suicidal headshot in reference to Bruce's inquiries about the identity of the TBG!

So it's Joe Chill?
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
23:32 / 12.10.08
Actually I think I'm getting a Zombie Marshall Roger's enslaved by Witch-Boy Bob Kane's surviving brainwaves broadcasting from the fourth wall breaking Adam West Bat-Computer kinda vibe.
 
 
MFreitas
07:38 / 13.10.08
So it's Joe Chill?

Yes, but now he calls himself EL CHILLI, dresses as a giant (you guessed it) chilli pepper, and is believed to be El Sombrero's elderly side-kick.
 
 
Triplets
12:12 / 13.10.08
Yur funneh!

Actually it'd make sense of some of the issues, though. Joe Chill's son taking revenge on Batman for causing his dad's suicide (else why do a Joe Chill in Hell issue?), Hurt keeps mentioning class warfare and rich boy Bruce, Damian in the future (sons of their fathers etc), Joker miming a suicide with pointy gun-fingers.

It's definitely Hugo Strange.
 
 
Neon Snake
12:37 / 13.10.08
Indeed. That was pretty much the basis of my Joe Chill's son theory from a few months back, along with a vague gambling link (Chill is playing with a pack of cards).

Of course, Morrison then came out with the 'someone everyone on the planet has heard of' line, and my theory went down in flames.
 
 
Speedy
01:24 / 14.10.08
I think MFreitas is on to something ... According to the Wiki, El Chilli ("the Jalapeno of Hate") appeared in the June '61 issue of Brave and the Bold. But it was a Bob Haney story, so not considered strict canon ... Trust Morrison to dig up something like that!
 
 
HCE
13:09 / 14.10.08
Now, as rule, I tend not to analyse things if I'm enjoying them; I don't see it as time well-spent. The fact that I'm enjoying it is good enough for me.

Well, to rephrase what was said in various places upthread, if people talk about what they like, they're pretty much just talking about themselves. It's not until they talk about how a comic (or film, or piece of music) works that they're talking about the comic. There's nothing wrong with enjoying things, but that's more the kind of information you give out when you're trying to make friends, or get a date:

"I like Batman, cool stuff, long walks on the beach at sunset, and fun. And I like them a whole lot."

Whereas when you're in a group of people you don't know and don't especially want to date, and you're there to talk about a comic book, it seems to make a little more sense to talk about how a certain effect is achieved or what it is that makes something cool or fun.

I mean, obviously when you get people around each other, even in this disembodied way, there is a certain amount of socializing and sharing enthusiasm, and that's great, but fifty pages of that gets a little boring. (Incidentally, these comments are not directed at Neon Snake, I'm just using the quoted comment as a starting point.)

I think it's particularly interesting to try to figure out how this variation of Batman works because I know a little bit about Batman and a little bit about George, and I can't really make sense of how those two bits might fit together. So for me, personally, it's nice when people who do know more think about it and offer some ideas. I can figure out on my own whether or not I like it, and if so, how much.

Edited to add: And I think this process is generally true of any discussion board, not just Barbelith, and not just the comics forum.
 
 
Axel Lambert
19:30 / 16.10.08
I know this is late, and you probably know this already, but there's some very interesting discussion going on at this DC forum, especially from a guy called RIKDAD.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:18 / 16.10.08
The secret of comedy is, without a doubt, timing.
 
  

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