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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
22:47 / 18.07.08
Why on Earth would you assume that, Boboss?

P.S. Dear all. The term is "magical negro". It is a term of criticism. When you say "magic negro", you demonstrate that you have not been paying attention.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
23:10 / 18.07.08
thank you so very much for teaching me, oh Captain Polite, my Captain. the one who crush bones to build better bones. shower us with your Golden Magic[al] Wisdom, even though we're not worthy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:12 / 18.07.08
I ask again: Boboss, what possible basis for your assumption can there be?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:29 / 18.07.08
So, anyway, Jezebel Jet as tragic mulatta. This is a much less clear-cut issue, but then I would argue that the tragic mulatta is a less clear-cut character type in general - because her defining characteristic is being between worlds, she is easily remodeled and recreated as an interstitial character whose otherness is expressed through factors other than race, but whose race is constantly represented as different.

jet is a character repeatedly identified as not fitting into worlds. When we first see her, she is notionally a part of the shallow "Wayne mask" world of jet setting and events. Wayne has travelled to London to attend an art show in which he is affecting not to be interested anyway. Jet immediately undermines this approach by making it clear that the art is for her a means to an end - raising funds and awareness. Of course, Bruce Wayne is using it as a means to an end also - to obfuscate, to reduce awareness.

Her race is not a clear identifierof difference, but she stands out from Bruce Wayne's women not only because of the colour of her skin but because of her alien culture - she does not belong to the Western world of privilege, even though she is privileged and even though she is associating with it.

The same yes-but-no takes place in the jump with Bruce Wayne - it is a Batman-like feat of skill, but she is doing it (in the company of the Batman, unbeknownst to her) for a different reason entirely, and trying pull Bruce-Wayne-who-is-Batman into the same worldview, where the jump has a non-Batman end. She cannot, however - their flightpaths diverge, both metaphorically and literally.

The ten-eyed date brings her hard up against the breaks between worlds. She is suffering because she is not a part of Batman's world, and as a result cannot believe that she is a part of Bruce Wayne's world either - she is perceptive enough (as a result of her own dislocation and double life?) to detect the problem but only at the point where Bruce Wayne is beating an assassin with a skillet does she realise the extent of the dysjunction. And. of course, this only takes her to another world that she cannot truly enter - she cannot sign up to the belief set that has a sinister gallery of grotesques putting overcomplicated plots in motion, and instead retreats to a position that satisfies neither the relation of Jezebel Jet and Bruce Wayne or the relationship of Jezebel Jet and Batman - that Bruce Wayne is Batman as we understand it, but is mad, and is Batman because he is mad.

I have a feeling that she is going to suffer for this inability to live wholly in the required world. However, this is from memory, so I may have missed some telling details.
 
 
Mug Chum
00:26 / 19.07.08
There's also the potential Jezebel stereotype, depending on what Jet's fate will be (and her name is what made me question earlier in the thread if Morrison was consciously nodding towards these roles).

And it seems her race might have being brought forth in her alliterative bondgirl/ porno name when considering it in light of the series' play with the colors red and black -- Jezebel (lust, passion, red, her being red haired) and Jet (jet black, she being black/ just having something to do with Black Glove and nothing to do with her skin color). So yeah, that's something Morrison brought into it. But what it means or how it articulates with anything (or if it means something other than a cute "and there's also _______ ..."), like Final Crisis' symbolisms, it's beyond me (and what I can gather, not very... ahm, interesting or attractive).
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
01:05 / 19.07.08
without wanting to wave my hand at anyone, i sincerely think racism can also come from a paternalist interpretation from a reader's eye. we're not talking about Tin Tin punching a tribesman in Africa or even Bruce Wayne looking down upon Jezebel or Honor.

even though part of the Bruce that survived his parents slaying could look down on those characters, i suppose his worldview was improved in his travels around the world before he became Batman.

i'm open to be proven wrong, but the 'magical negro' and 'tragic mulata' stereotypes [before professor Haus corrects me, the original 'mulata' has only one 'T', so bear with me and don't give me an F] don't seem to have have appeared in the comic. at least not strongly enough to justify being analysed as it was a plot point.

class war speaks stronger to me in this comic than race issues - which most of the time are born from class issues. why can't Jezebel Jet be a wealthy mulata? just because she is a mulata does she have to be 'tragic', or eventually a backstabbing bondgirl?

even with the strong possibility of the later being true, why wouldn't she be more than happy to do so, if JJ is revealed to be working for the Black Glove? only way i see race being used as a plot point is both JJ and Honor be volunteers of former poor boy Hurt's plan to bring Bruce down, all of them motivated by class war.

i don't want to sound repetitive, but the demographic in my country has a very strong black \ mulato presence [culturally, also, a centuries-old influence]. although we have our own race issues, we're usually pretty integrated. what about the country you guys live in? no, really, i'm curious - as it also informs the way we interpret art.

obviously Bruce Wayne is the ultimate modern aristocrat, with all that is implied - although his mission as Batman is reduced to MY PARENTS ARE DEAD if you take out the Humanitarian drive. and i do believe he's also a humanitarian, in his own twisted way.

the class war card was called upon at an earlier issue of the comic. we're still waiting to see how it'll be played.

but right now calling the portrayal of these characters 'racist' seems too reductionist for me. seeingseems to be also a biiit of a stretch.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:31 / 19.07.08
I'm not sure that we are calling the portrayal "racist", Hector. You might be imagining things. You also appear to be confused about the difference between a "tragic mulatta" and a person of mixed racial origin who might be a bit tragic. I would rather you did not refer to people as mulatto or mulatta outsde the theoretical terminology, no matter how many "t"s you care to throw into the word.

I am afraid it is unlikely that being Brazilian is going to mean that you are going to be accepted as an expert on race issues. Remember Dead Megatron and the evil hip-hop?

I ask again, Boboss, what on Earth makes you think that your assumption is in any way a sensible one?
 
 
This Sunday
12:14 / 19.07.08
Can we perhaps do more with the racial portrayal issues/examination in this thread, if only to expand it to more Morrison or more general comics' atmosphere?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:21 / 19.07.08
I'm not sure we want another thread that is ostensibly about comic books turned into a thread about what Grant Morrison is currently writing.
 
 
Spaniel
13:52 / 19.07.08
Haus, it's an attitudinal stance, one which sometimes doesn't pay dividends
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
14:37 / 19.07.08
i'm not ok with using 'mulatto\mulatta', i'm using the expression you guys used before.

of course my nationality doesn't give a PHD in racial issues. but it might inform in a different - less paternalistic - way how i see them and how i interpret Art.

it's about different contexts informing your view. text is always open to several interpretations if it gives you the proper evidence. in my way of looking at these characters, i don't see them portrayed as inferior, cookie-cutter, racial figures.

can't remember who brought SEVEN SOLDIERS's Mr Miracle up. Shilo Norman is a rich celebrity, a showman, a pop figure who loves the stage and made his way to the top, whose poise and entourage are not that different from pop rappers like P-Diddy, 50 Cent, Kanye West [the later being closer to Shilo in my view]. behind the mask, Shilo is human and has issues with fame, accomplishment etc.

take THE MANHATTAN GUARDIAN, quite the opposite but very similar: a blue-collar depressed former cop with a family to feed, a fiancée who lost her faith in him. a regular joe who's given a second chance on a new job. a human being with issues.

both are black, but more important than that they're men, human beings. their [racial] context inform their personality, obviously, but before being portrayed as 'black men with issues' they are portrayed as 'men with issues'. that's why i believe an european white man like Morrison [who actually wasn't born rich] has the sensibility to deal with non-white characters in way that is not racist, guilt-ridden paternalistic or any way you want to name it.

the same i'm seeing in his Batman. again, further developments in the plot might prove me wrong, but as of now i think pointing those stereotypes in this comic is, like we say, 'looking for a fur on an egg'.

well, i guess i've made my point and won't insist on this aspect of the discussion as i'm already repeating myself.
 
 
dark horse
15:24 / 19.07.08
boboss i for one would be grateful if you did explain it, not cuz i think hector is stupid! just because i'm new here and like i said i haven't thought about some of these things before.... i'm sure there are other new people who would appreciate it if this kind of thing did get explained!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:54 / 19.07.08
The idea that Brazil has no racism is a canard. The statement that all Europeans except Grant Morrison are somehow "paternalistic" in their view of race equally so. I fear your assumption may be misfounded, Boboss.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
16:16 / 19.07.08
just like with the comic, you're interpreting my posts in absolutes, Haus. i didnt make any of those generalizations.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:27 / 19.07.08
Plus, of course, the question was not whether Grant Morrison could _ever_ write a black character well. We were discussing, specifically, the characters of Honor Jackson and Jezebel Jet in Batman, before you and MFreitas decided to try to rot the thread. If you'd like to get back ontopic any time, feel free, but getting your carcasses out of the thread is also an option.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
16:30 / 19.07.08
classy, as ever.

i'll get back when this is over.
 
 
MFreitas
16:53 / 19.07.08
No. I suggest we just create a thread about "Grant Morrison's Batman: The Comic Book" instead of a "Haus' Most Excellent Opinion About What a Grant Morrison's Batman Thread Must Be".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:13 / 19.07.08
One not populated entirely by abusive arses, essentially. Over to Policy to see what we can do about that.
 
 
Spaniel
17:26 / 19.07.08
We've been over this. Discussions of representations of race within GM's most recent Batman comic ARE ON TOPIC. There is no room for debate on this matter. There is, however, nothing to stop those posters who wish to carry on another discussion (one that includes speculation on the identity of the Black Glove perhaps) doing so. The beauty of a text based discussion is that two or more conversations can be held simultaneously. We don't need a new thread.


Haus, come on, if it's OK for you to make fun of the nerdgasm at, say, the TDK thread over at the Movies and TV forum - it's also OK for Freitas to dismiss the magic negro discussion.

Stallion, in a world where racial discrimination is rife, and serious discussion of the issue is routinely brushed under the table / marginalised, I simply can't agree that poking fun at nerdgasms is an equivalent activity to dismissing thoughts on racial representation. Hector seems to be suggesting that they are.
 
 
Spaniel
17:27 / 19.07.08
Could some other mods back me up here, please?
 
 
This Sunday
17:41 / 19.07.08
Yes, clearly, Boboss is right. I've temporarily dropped out of the discussion, and I can't say I haven't bridled a bit at certain phrasing used on various sides in this thread, lately, but, yes yes yes, racial portrayals in Morrison's Batman are on topic in this thread, as are even the geekiest or weirdest of theories regarding the actual narrative mysteries thereof.

As the discussion seems to be branching out into other Morrison comics and I think there's some great material there, and throughout the contemporary comics' landscape, to be mined, I still suggest moving the bulk of this element to the thread for racial portrayals and considerations in comics, as linked above. Heck, even discussions about whether or not discussion of such elements of the comics and comics creators are valid, if they have any place in comics fandom, should be put in that thread and probably not here.

If the discussion is to remain in this thread, it is still valid and useful, in my opinion as a mod and a long-term user of this board, and entirely connected to the topic at hand, Grant Morrison's Batman.

All personal attacks, or even commentary on certain (any) posters are not on-topic, though, and should go in Barbannoy or Policy, hopefully phrased in a useful and constructive manner.
 
 
Spaniel
17:44 / 19.07.08
Thanks, DD
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
17:57 / 19.07.08
Boboss, thanks for pointing it out. call me stupid, i hadn't seen it. but i'm not saying nerd-bashing and discussing racism have equal importance.

my point was dismissing other people's discussions in general, no matter what the subject matter was.

i'm taking the rest of my post to the Policy forum.
 
 
Spaniel
18:14 / 19.07.08
Thanks for the clarification. That's not what you originally wrote, however, although I appreciate that it might have been what you wanted to say.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
18:24 / 19.07.08
thanks, B. my choice of words is often poor as English is not my first language. but my intent was pure. %as is my good dumb savage heart%.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:38 / 21.07.08
Jet is a character repeatedly identified as not fitting into worlds.

Thematically, a number of the characters in the current run would also fit into this.

Batman himself, of course, struggling not to use his Batman voice whilst ordering dinner in his Bruce Wayne Tux ("Your entrees are almost here, Mr. Wayne! Swear to God!" "SWEAR TO ME!!!").

Talia, torn between her father's world and Batman's world. A bit sketchy, that one, actually.

Damian, for sure.



I wonder if the fact that Jet falls into this category is more to do with the overall arching theme of the arc, and to an extent "Batman" as a whole?
 
 
Spaniel
21:13 / 21.07.08
Do you know what I really dislike? I really dislike DC's October solicitations. Don't go and read them.

Words like fuck, off, and shitheads spring to mind
 
 
Neon Snake
05:37 / 22.07.08
Why's that? Spoilery solicits, Boboss?

I haven't bothered going through the new-looking DC site, it makes my mouse curl up and die at all the roll-overs.
 
 
HCE
05:45 / 22.07.08
if it's OK for you to make fun of the nerdgasm at, say, the TDK thread over at the Movies and TV forum - it's also OK for Freitas to dismiss the magic negro discussion.

Huh? How is mocking a lot of discussion about something nobody had yet seen (insofar as such talk can be said to be discussing anything) comparable to dismissing a problematic aspect of something everybody has read? One is exactly what is useless (bullshitting about nothing) and the other is exactly what's useful (analysis leading to deeper understanding of something).
 
 
HCE
05:52 / 22.07.08
Whoa, sorry for the stale reply -- thought I was on the last page but I was in fact on the next-to-last page.

Back on topic, can somebody who knows the GM material well and has taken a look at the link I posted let me know, by PM if it seems too far toward the edges of the thread to be of more general interest, if that article seems relevant? If it is I'd like to explore the connection in a little more depth (not necessarily here) in order to better develop my sense of how that trope works, if trope is the word I want.

Gracias.
 
 
MFreitas
09:07 / 22.07.08
Do you know what I really dislike? I really dislike DC's October solicitations. Don't go and read them. Words like fuck, off, and shitheads spring to mind.

- Err, Boboss... you're not assuming they're revealing Jezebel is the Glove just because they mention "the final, heartrending confontation between Bruce Wayne and Jezebel Jet", are you? That would be a very abusive, erroneous even, assumption. Any couple can have a confrontation, especially a "heartrending" one, without one of them being the Black Glove.

Furthermore, the solicits goes on mentioning the shocking truth about the Black Glove. Even DC editors wouldn't be THAT dumb to spoil the revelation in such a manner.
 
 
Spaniel
09:25 / 22.07.08
Yeah, I skimmed over it in a boozy haze late last night and came to all sorts of wrong conclusions.

Clearer headed now.
 
 
MFreitas
09:57 / 22.07.08
Then we can post it here, can't we?

BATMAN #681
Written by Grant Morrison
Art by Tony Daniel & Sandu Florea
Cover by Alex Ross
Variant cover by Tony Daniel

This is it – “Batman R.I.P.” concludes here! The final, heartrending confrontation between Bruce Wayne and Jezebel Jet. The final fate of The Dark Knight. And the horrifying and shocking truth behind the Black Glove. With The Joker, the Club of Villains, Robin, Damian, plus an ending you’ll never see coming – this one has it all!
Retailers please note: This issue will ship with two covers. For every 25 copies of the Standard Edition (with a cover by Alex Ross), retailers may order one copy of the Variant Edition (with a cover by Tony Daniel). Please see the Previews Order Form for more information.

On sale October 29 • 40 pg, FC, $3.99 US
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:17 / 22.07.08
Alternately, it could mean that Bruce is revealed as The Black Glove.
 
 
tickspeak
13:59 / 22.07.08
What major character who appears in almost every issue of the run don't they mention?

Having re-read the whole thing (minus 666, which I'm missing) the other night, I'm pretty convinced it's Alfred, either at Bruce's long-ago behest or on his own recognizance for Bruce's own good. Although "it turns out he was Eeeeevil all along" would be a pretty fucking great conclusion...
 
  

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