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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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dark horse
22:54 / 17.07.08
whoa, hey guys surely we can get along?... west baltimore, maybe you should start a separate thread for discussing magic negroes as i think mfreitas is right that this thread is more about batman r.i.p.... but also mfreitas, i don't think you need to be rude about the dcboards dude! there are some cool folks on there, although i guess it goes without saying that barbelith is better (a lot of those guys still hate frank quitely's art even!)...

anyway, let's move on, right? does anyone have any theories as to why bats was acting so strangely this issue?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:03 / 17.07.08
I appreciate that you mean well, wildstallion, but if MFreitas is going to call other people's balanced, thoughtful contributions "over-intellectualised mumbo-jumbo", I reserve the right to point out that his contributions are and always have been utterly without merit. Turnabout being fair play, and all. Perhaps you should talk to him about that, rather than his dismissive attitude to the DC Boards.

If you have a look at the discussion on the previous page, incidentally, you'll find that it was about Batman, RIP, largely. Quite close textual analysis of Batman, RIP, with reference to several other discussions of Batman, RIP. It's not a wild trip off to the fairies.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:16 / 17.07.08
It's about kindness. It's about politesse. It's about respect.

It's the way we do it in West Baltimore.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
03:26 / 18.07.08
Dude, with all due respect (and I am not being sarcastic), but both of you guys are out of line. He shouldn't be so rudely dismissive of your thoughtful opinions (and really you must have realized "mumbo-jumbo" was a loaded phrase, esp. in the context of a discussion about politics and race), and you shouldn't bring so much venom in response to the place.

Given the nature of this message board, both of you have ample space to express your opinions.

Remember: We are of all shapes, colors, genders, and sizes in our homes and communities, but on the board our egos are all waif-like virgins.

I would like to read more from the both of you on what you find interesting about Batman and the politics of piece, but would rather turn on boxing on HBO for the fighting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:21 / 18.07.08
a) This isn't fighting, it's teaching/
b) This isn't about my thoughtful opinions. It's about an entire discussion that was taking place. Not everything is personal. The idea that this discussion, which seemed to have reached a conclusion. had to be dissed (in, as you say, conveniently racially icky terms) by a chap who then advanced as the kind of thing we should be talking about a post of shit is, honestly. a weak idea, and should not b encouraged.
c) I am not a moderator of this forum. Therefore the only things I can do with MFreitas are (i) respond as a Barbecitizen or (ii) seek to ban him. I thought (i) was a better idea, but those are the options I have.
d) Good discussion is regularly and easily displaced by shit discussion. Shit discussion should not be encouraged. If shit discussion is encouraged, there is no point in the board existing.
e) Therefore, unless MFreitas apologises for his dummy-spitting in the face of a discussion that required basic literacy and a modicum of intellectual curiosity and resolves not to do it again. I feel whatever reaction I may take is justified in the interests of helping people to feel that their efforts not to turn the discussion into a shit discussion are justified. If MFreitas learns something from that, that's great too.

If and when the moderators wake up, they are free to do as they wish, of course. Until then, this is my humble attempt to encourage niceness and mutual respect.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:44 / 18.07.08
Dude, with all due respect (and I am not being sarcastic), but both of you guys are out of line. He shouldn't be so rudely dismissive of your thoughtful opinions (and really you must have realized "mumbo-jumbo" was a loaded phrase, esp. in the context of a discussion about politics and race), and you shouldn't bring so much venom in response to the place.

I think that was a pretty measured response considering MFrietas just derailed a really interesting path the thread was taking in preferance to a load of speculative fanwank.
 
 
MFreitas
07:45 / 18.07.08
Yes, you're probably right. I could have expressed my dislikening of such serious matters related to Batman with other words. For that, I apologise for everybody taking place in said discussion, except for Monsieur West Baltimore Hausing Project...

As for him: I think you have serious issues. Real serious issues. Or maybe you only like to talk to enlightened persons who use such distinctive names as "West Baltimore Hausing Project ". Probably those are the only you treat with "respect". Curious choice of words, coming from you...

These were my last words about such stupid affair, totally blown out of proportion.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:06 / 18.07.08
How very constructive. Could you perhaps do your Haus-bashing elsewhere?

Like...a park or something.

Y'know. Somewhere not here.

Shall we try to claw this thread back onto a more constructive course? Please.
 
 
Spaniel
08:10 / 18.07.08
Freitas, while I don't share Haus's feelings regarding your speculations - I quite enjoyed 'em - I think Haus had every right to be angry. I was angry, and not a little disappointed when I stumbled across your dismissive hand waving. Regardless of whether you enjoy discussing the political undertones of a creator's work, you should understand that such discussions have value - perhaps, in the grand scheme of things, considerably more value than the identity of the Black Glove. In addition, Haus's point about politeness is bang on the money. It's just fucking rude to dismiss what are quite clearly the thoughtful contributions of a sizeable number of people.

Finally, Haus doesn't have issues, he's using the only tool available to him, as a non-mod, in instances like this - he's using strong language. He's trying to make you feel uncomfortable, he's trying to get you to stop short and think about what you've said, he's trying to uphold a culture which doesn't just dismiss the kind of discussion that we've been having here. He's doing it passionately, yeah, he's being severe, yeah, but these are just the kind of issues that demand passionate and severe defence. Unlike the comings and goings of batvillains, which while endlessly fascinating to me, aren't really that important.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:20 / 18.07.08
Wrt to the use of homeless characters as spiritual guides; it's a pretty common theme in literature (in particular I'm thinking of Gaiman) to have these mysterious homeless people who are "more in tune with the world/city". Which, it could be argued, could lead people to consider that homelessness isn't all that bad really.
 
 
Spaniel
08:32 / 18.07.08
To be fair, they would be very, very stupid people. That said, it does feed into the idea that homelessness is the product of an uncomplicated choice.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:35 / 18.07.08
To be fair, they would be very, very stupid people.

Not something the world is running out of though.
 
 
Spaniel
08:37 / 18.07.08
Sadly
 
 
Neon Snake
08:56 / 18.07.08
On with the show. We've wasted way too much time discussing magical negroes and tragic mulatas and over-intellectualised mumbo-jumbo whatsoever.

Freitas, I apologise if you feel that I've wasted your time and others by bringing up racial stereotyping on these boards.
May I humbly suggest that, next time you feel that a subject is wasting your time, you just don't read it and spend that time doing something that you feel is more worthwhile?

Personally, I've got an awful lot out of the discussion, and the comments over on the Mindless Ones, including a re-evaluation of my previously (dearly) held conviction that race should be viewed as an utter irrelevance.

(Which is easy to do when only 10% of the people you ever see aren't white, I guess)

So, y'know, cheers to everyone who got involved.
 
 
Spaniel
09:02 / 18.07.08
Snake, your willingness to take onboard other viewpoints without getting excessively caught up in your own ego really is very brilliant indeed.
 
 
Neon Snake
09:07 / 18.07.08
Why, thank you very much, Boboss.

Bing relatively new to Barbelith, is it customary that I invite you round to mine for a cup of tea, and a game of this "swingball" that I keep hearing about?

(Really, someone help me out on that one...why "swingball"?)
 
 
Spaniel
09:18 / 18.07.08
I can't remember where it started, but I'm pretty sure others can.

As to why it's stuck, I suppose it's because swingball is a game played by children in their back gardens. The suggestion being that a game of swingball with one's favourite creator has all the excited intimacy of having your new best friend in the world ever over to play.

The swingball jab, then, is employed to ridicule suggestions of intimate knowledge of a given hero figure's mind / heart / desires / thoughts / wishes / intent.
 
 
MFreitas
09:29 / 18.07.08
Ok, Boboss, Snake, point taken. But don't you think it's utter outrageous to consider I "derailed" a Morrison's Batman related thread with a Morrison's Batman related theory? Were my words unfortunate? Hell, they probably were? But did I insult anyone especifically or did I make rude and unnecessary further assumptions about anyone involved? No, I didn't. Unlike Haus and "Evil Scientist" (do you also play in the park or did you already upgrade to an island?)

And "fanwank theory"? God forbid I try to put the pieces together in a Batman related mystery in a Batman related thread... And "fanwank"? I could have sworn Grant used to incentive that in a book we all read, loved, discussed and theorized about. "The Invisibles", was it?
 
 
Spaniel
09:40 / 18.07.08
Certainly the term fanwank can be used perjoratively, but I for one often use it as playful shorthand for speculative discussion / thoughts.
 
 
Spaniel
09:43 / 18.07.08
Also, the Invisibles Defence in its many form is not a good one. For the record I didn't read all of it, and didn't love what I did read. Mind you, my twin, who I was living with at the time, was possibly it's biggest fan, so that perhaps explains my lack of interest.
 
 
Neon Snake
09:53 / 18.07.08
The swingball jab, then, is employed to ridicule suggestions of intimate knowledge of a given hero figure's mind / heart / desires / thoughts / wishes / intent.

Oops. Hopefully you didn't take it as a jab; it wasn't intended as one.

*runs away from possible text-based communication misinterpretation of intent*

So, that Morrison, eh? Great hair.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:03 / 18.07.08
Something that's recently struck me about Batman, and it's a theme running through Seven Soldiers as well, is this idea of reinvention/reinvigoration.

In order to function in the way that they are "mean't to", the characters have to go through some form of cleansing process, often a trial, sometimes help from someone else, whereby they come out of the other side all freshened up and closer to their "true" character.

What's interesting to me is that the trial is almost always external in nature; or that there is a third party who imparts the necessary wisdom. The implication seems to be that the individual couldn't have made the leap on their own, of their own accord.
 
 
Spaniel
10:22 / 18.07.08
That's why I liked the idea that Batman is the Black Glove. That through his genius he could engineer a situation that would force him to change at a fundamental level.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:31 / 18.07.08
but I for one often use it as playful shorthand for speculative discussion / thoughts.

That's what I was going for. There's plenty of fanwanking going on (hell I do it over in the Who threads), and it's pretty much harmless.

I didn't say you derailed the entire thread MFreitas, I said you: "...derailed a really interesting path the thread was taking...". Slight difference.

I just think that moaning about people having a half-way decent discussion (in a Comics forum thread no-less) and then taking it to the other end of the spectrum (speculative theories that are based on little to no real evidence in the comics and are, quite probably, not accurate) is a tad frustrating.

Something that's recently struck me about Batman, and it's a theme running through Seven Soldiers as well, is this idea of reinvention/reinvigoration.

It is a theme Mozzelduck returns to again and again. I think it's part of why giving him the keys to long-running established comics such as Batman (and JLA and X-Men) is a good idea. Even these days (and I personally feel he's not quite as white-hot as he used to be) he can inject a real jolt into characters which are starting to look a little tired.
 
 
MFreitas
10:44 / 18.07.08
I just think that moaning about people having a half-way decent discussion (in a Comics forum thread no-less) and then taking it to the other end of the spectrum (speculative theories that are based on little to no real evidence in the comics and are, quite probably, not accurate) is a tad frustrating.

"Little to no real evidence"... Did you even bother to read the theory or the actual comics for that matter?

And don't you think one might find a tad frustrating to see a thread about Morrison's Batman completely "derailing" from any actual discussing about the comic itself?

And it's curious how some of the "fanwank" thoughts and theories I've came up with throughout the years have been praised as some of the best and most interesting (namely with New X-Men, 7 Soldiers and now Batman), but now I have to hear a spoiled superior being claiming I've never contributed with anything relevant to this forum.
 
 
Spaniel
10:54 / 18.07.08
But that's just it, they were discussing the comic, just not the bit of the comic that you want to discuss. Sure there were digressions but I think you'll find that most of those digressions were in support of the topic at hand.

In short, the thread wasn't being derailed. The conversation you wanted to have was (undoubtedly for a short time only).
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:56 / 18.07.08
(X-posted with Boboss)

And don't you think one might find a tad frustrating to see a thread about Morrison's Batman completely "derailing" from any actual discussing about the comic itself?

It may have not been at a level you felt comfortable with but it was certainly discussing the comic.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:03 / 18.07.08
It's about kindness. It's about politesse. It's about respect.

It's the way we do it in West Baltimore.


You have got to be kidding me, Haus. Seriously.
 
 
dark horse
13:07 / 18.07.08
hi, i'd just like to apologise to west baltimore for my post at the top of this thread... i went back and read the whole of this thread and had a look at some of the links as well, and realised that the discussion about this idea of the 'magical negroe' is actually pretty deep stuff! anyway sorry mfreitas but i think it was a bit wrong of you to call it mumbo jumbo... is that a racist term? not being a dick honest, i just had never heard that before!

anyway this is why i came to barbelith, to learn, and so thanks for that!
 
 
MFreitas
13:34 / 18.07.08
No! Not at all! I'm not racist and my remark didn't have anything to do with race or gender, but only with content.

I used "Mumbo Jumbo" to describe a discussion going on in circles and drifiting too apart from the intended topic. I already admited "mea culpa" in the way I verbalised it, but no way I'll admit the absurd and over-the-top insults directed at me. Personally.
 
 
Spaniel
13:47 / 18.07.08
But you do need to leave alone the idea that we were drifting from the intended topic.
 
 
Spaniel
14:02 / 18.07.08
Also, "drifting around in circles" is a criticism of others' contributions and as such needs backing up.
 
 
MFreitas
14:15 / 18.07.08
Yes, I was being critical. Can we move on, now? I miss playing in the park.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
20:26 / 18.07.08
Haus, come on, if it's OK for you to make fun of the nerdgasm at, say, the TDK thread over at the Movies and TV forum - it's also OK for Freitas to dismiss the magic negro discussion.

yeah, it always Hurts when someone is trying to be a smartass over us, doesn't it. you totally over-reacted to Freitas' post.

sorry for the threadrot, people.
 
 
Spaniel
21:20 / 18.07.08
That is fucking bollocks, Hector.

I'm not going to explain why, I'm going to assume that you aren't stupid and ask you to do the work.
 
  

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