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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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MFreitas
15:42 / 02.10.08
It's pretty clear by now Doctor Hurt is THE Black Glove, the question now being "Who is Doctor Hurt?". Let's just say there's a line in this issue which pretty much reveals it...

"Is this another of your beloved actors, Doctor?"

...which makes the Club of Heroes storyline a perfect fractal (by the way, the flashback scenes in that story were refered as happening "Eight years ago" in the monthly issues, but now in the hard cover edition has been changed to "Twelve years ago", which now places it around the timeframe of the isolation chamber experiment; it all fits now, whith no overcomplicated explanations I myself was also to blame for).
 
 
The Natural Way
16:13 / 02.10.08
I don't think it's at all clear Hurt's the Black Glove.

What am I missing?
 
 
MFreitas
16:40 / 02.10.08
Connecting the dots.
 
 
Neon Snake
17:03 / 02.10.08
Loved the Joker line about hints and clues and things making sense and fitting into nice boxes. That's not life, that's wikipedia! HA! Take that, today's readers.

I read that with a vague sense of relief, actually. All of the endless speculating over who the Black Glove is, backed up with numerology, playing cards, colour schemes, French literature and bloody anything else that someone pulls out of nowhere was beginning to grate on me; I'm glad that Morrison has taken the time to point out that most of the things that people are taking as "TEH HIDDEN KEY!!!11!!" are nothing of the sort.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:34 / 02.10.08
Thanks for that, Freitas. I'll get going....
 
 
Mark Parsons
18:32 / 02.10.08
Still, Jezebel Jet - evil? Really?

Jezebel = not nice in the bible
Jet Black, darkest of dark.

Sorry, that's all I have today.

Another fun read.
 
 
captainkyle
20:42 / 02.10.08
setting aside my earlier theory that it's the bat-computer, i still think batman himself is at least a finger, if not the outright palm, of the black glove.

i'm not sure dr. hurt started out "bad." or if he was from the very start, i think when batman lost his mind post-isolation experiment, even that mind-addled batman was STILL himself enough to overcome/dominate dr. hurt in a battle of psychological wills (i always think back to the coolest unwritten story grant morrison has ever referenced, which is the years-long exploits of a captured batman playing and ultimately winning the ultimate battle of wills with desaad in 'rock of ages'). so, even thought dr. hurt got some sort of mental hooks into batman, i think the damage/influence was mutual.

i think it's significant that dr. hurt apparently wasn't content with only eradicating batman. he wanted to replace him with three batmen, and was persuasive and trustworthy enough to get official backing and support in his efforts.

GM has said that he has told us the "who" and the nature of the black glove from his very first issue on. and in his first issue, something that established itself as a running theme (getting referenced explicitly in interviews around that time with GM) is 'what does batman do when his mission is over?' a better question is: 'how will batman KNOW when his mission is over?'

i think the black glove is the program/system/indications that it's time for batman, or at least bruce wayne, to finally rest in peace, mission completed. i also think that the addled batman rambled some sort of explanation to this effect to dr. hurt, or in the isolation tank with dr. hurt listening in, and now both batman's beneficial early-warning system AND dr. hurt malevolent appropriation of it is running concurrently.

jezebel jet, far from being THE black glove, is another attempt to create/replace a batman. her father was assassinated, i believe in front of her, right? at the very least, she found herself in a similar situation to young bruce wayne. bruce reacted to his situation to become the ultimate hero, the batman. maybe dr. hurt had jezebel's father killed to create the ultimate villain, hoping the same conditions that grew a batman from bruce wayne could be scientifically replicated.

i can see GM doing his typically brilliant job weaving all these threads together, allowing alfred to be part of the good black glove without seeing/understanding the action of the bad black glove (jezebel jet's sudden influence on bruce, dr. hurt's being broken enough by a superior intelligence to become convinced he himself is thomas wayne). and naturally, the only one who can see through all these tangled threads is the joker, who doesn't process logic and reason in any way close to the way we and the pattern-seeking batman does.

just a guess. count me as someone completely blown away and satisfied with GM's whole take on batman regardless of how this turns out, though. if for no other reason than batman's journal entry about how he didn't really anticipate things like costumed villains and constant exposure to dangerous chemical compounds is EXACTLY the sort of genius detail i want in my batman comics. fantastic!
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
02:47 / 03.10.08
Mother, I want a batmobile as well.
 
 
Quimper
13:37 / 03.10.08
Even I was annoyed with Le Bossu's ass-kissing and self-importance. I'm glad the Joker slashed his face up. And he's right, sombreros are funny.
 
 
This Sunday
15:24 / 03.10.08
I am suprised the Joker hasn't run up a higher score dead clubbers, yet. And his mutilation of Le Bossu will undoubtedly be that character-building moment that helps center and simplify the man's life. While Batman is often examined in terms of being the cause of Gotham's wave of psychotic costumed criminals, really, the Joker seems just as likely to send out echoes. The mutilating, mutating effects of the true Joker Virus.
 
 
Automatic
15:50 / 03.10.08
'Population explosion', as you could term it.
 
 
MFreitas
16:26 / 03.10.08
I am suprised the Joker hasn't run up a higher score dead clubbers, yet. And his mutilation of Le Bossu will undoubtedly be that character-building moment that helps center and simplify the man's life. While Batman is often examined in terms of being the cause of Gotham's wave of psychotic costumed criminals, really, the Joker seems just as likely to send out echoes. The mutilating, mutating effects of the true Joker Virus.

As the Club of Heroes' members were in awe of Batman, the Club of Villains' ones are in awe of The Joker. And as the man who created the former is probably the one who created the later, that's going to be his downfall again.

"The only thing left to try was murder".
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
16:26 / 03.10.08
Joker mentions in there how he found out who Dr. Hurt REALLY is and why he hates Bruce so.

It's gotta be Alfred, right? It might even be some kind of self imposed pattern recognition, but I keep seeing Alfred's nose on Hurt over the last few issues...
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
16:29 / 03.10.08
And where is Al this ish? He's not seen in Arkham or Stately Wayne Manor.
 
 
MFreitas
16:29 / 03.10.08
Joker mentions in there how he found out who Dr. Hurt REALLY is and why he hates Bruce so.

It's gotta be Alfred, right? It might even be some kind of self imposed pattern recognition, but I keep seeing Alfred's nose on Hurt over the last few issues...


It's not Alfred. And it's probably not Bruce Hurt hates; it's Batman.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
17:30 / 03.10.08
I'll bite MFreitas, wanna drop your theory you're alluding to at the top of the page and the previous post?

My Bat-Dot connecting ability is lacking without my trusty Bat-Pen handy...
 
 
MFreitas
18:01 / 03.10.08
Simple: Simon Hurt is John Mayhew. He uses actors, he directs actors. He didn't die at the island; an actor impersonating him did. The true Mayhew was the voice we heard.

The Club of Heroes storyline is a perfect fractal of the rest of the run. The story in the island begins with Mayhew seemingly dead just to be revealed later he's alive and behind it all.

Mayhew tried a hand at everything, including medical research, which connects him to the Isolation Chamber Experiment (there'a a picture of "Mayhew's Hospital Research" hanging in the island's manor.

When he tried the super-heroics thing, he was met with Batman's desdain which killed the interest in the Club of Heroes. That's why he resents Batman so much and that's why he (as Hurt) calls Wayne an arrogant aristocrat (Mayhew is a self-made man) and a do-gooder and idealist (Bruce never did it for the fame).
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
18:07 / 03.10.08
Alright, but Mayhew isn't really a a worldwide recognizable character as the General Manager alluded to in the interviews...

And it's been a while, but isn't Mayhew strung up by The Black Glove on the first page in the first Club arc?
 
 
Triplets
18:45 / 03.10.08
Were people annoyed at Le Bossu's prostrating and self-revealing this issue? I fucking wasn't. The whole page with him describing how he's an honest monster, constrained by society, but always lurking, expressing himself via costumes and murder. That what he does (neurosurgery, brain experiments) he'd love to do on his unsuspecting wife and kids (I suspect that might be the most creepy element for me, that the guy, unlike most Bat-villains, has a family at home). Horrible.

And the whole sequence of him stripping off and pulling on that hideous mask... Shudder. Le Bossu is, for me, one of the best combinations of serial killer/costume villain I've seen.

The Joker is the man Le Bossu wants to be, as much as the Batmen of Many Nations want to be Batman, of course he'd be star-struck.

Does anyone doubt he'll be a true disfigured outcast now the Joker's got him?
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:17 / 03.10.08
Well Maybe Dr. Hurt is actually the real Alfred who faked his death while taking Bruce and Martha Wayne out, while the Alfred that's been mending Batman's wounds and helping him raise Robin as actually Thomas Wayne pretending to be Alfred all this time so as to guide Bruce towards BATMAN.

You heard it here first . . .
 
 
Never or Now!
23:09 / 03.10.08
Alright, but Mayhew isn't really a a worldwide recognizable character as the General Manager alluded to in the interviews...

Interviews don't count for shit.

And it's been a while, but isn't Mayhew strung up by The Black Glove on the first page in the first Club arc?

Naw, that's the Mayhew-lookalike whose skin someone - presumably the real M. - wears later on.
 
 
the Doctor
07:18 / 04.10.08
Hmm...

My money's still on Hugo Strange.

But the poisonous roses remind me of Poison Ivy. Isn't she a redhead, too? Of course, Bruce Wayne would have recognized her, if se had been masquerading as JJ for all this time. He IS a detective, after all.

Let's see the main faces in his rogue gallery:

the Joker: no.
the Penguin: not his M.O.
Mister Freeze: same as the former one
Two Face: hardly
the Riddler: hmmm. Could be. But unlikely.
Hugo Strange: Psycho psychiatrist, specialized in mind games. He's my candidate.
Ra's al Ghul: absolutely no way
Killer Croc: of course not
 
 
Essential Dazzler
11:14 / 04.10.08
But wouldn't it just be a really shit mystery story if Hugo Strange was the villian?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:29 / 04.10.08
Yes. Yes it would.

It absolutely is not Hugo Strange.
 
 
This Sunday
14:23 / 04.10.08
Now I want a Scooby parody of mask removals, Hurtmask off reveals Mayhew, Mayhewmask off reveals Bruce Wayne, Waynemask off reveals Hugo Strange, Strangemask off reveals Li'l Anny Rooney...

More on point, I don't think people were annoyed with Le Bossu, so much as finding him probably boring to the Joker. The Joker does not require permission to transform himself. Sometimes people do it for you (shoot you in the head, drop you in a vat of chemicals), but you can quickly and easily do it for yourself, as demonstrated by Joker slicing his tongue this issue, or just changing his cothes or his expression.

I love Le Bossu maintaining a secret identity and a family, but it's there because he lacks courage to take it to the next step that he so admires. He lacks dedication to his convictions.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:41 / 04.10.08
I honestly can't believe Morrison would throw a character who hasn't appeared in his Batrun as the Black Glove reveal. It would be totally fucking weak. The answer has absolutely got to be in the story.
 
 
Spaniel
17:53 / 04.10.08
STRONGEST TRUTH

(Why on Earth do people struggle with this idea?)
 
 
MFreitas
19:31 / 04.10.08
Ok... After suspecting of Bruce, Alfred, Joker and just recently John Mayhew, I'm just laughing at how obvious the ansewer is. Mayhew's name and M.O. seemed to fit, except for a thing: he wasn't there in every issue and isn't known by everyone on the planet.

As for the real Black Glove...

...not the all planet, probably, but many many people know who he is.
- He's really there, in EVERY Batman issue, since the VERY beginning, like Grant said.
- He has always used actors, namely other people who did his job for him (and were always uncredited).
- He's the ultimate responsible for Gotham's creation, the Wayne's murders, Batman's origin, heck, he even created the Joker (that's why he's his master).
- NO ONE, but NO ONE knows Batman as he does.
- He's actually dead, and he's missing a finger (or, more precisely, he always refused to credit one named Bill).

Is that enough or do you want more? Ok, I'll give you more:

- The Black Casebooks contains every Batman story ever told, every Batman COMICBOOK story ever told, which means this story breaks the fourth wall. And Alfred is just scanning them all and putting them on a computer hard drive (I wonder if it'll be downloadable). It's funny how Alfred represents the modern comicbook reader. In a way, he's really the caretaker of Batman's history (and no, Alfred is NOT the Black Glove, I just thought this paralell would be a nice touch).
 
 
The Natural Way
19:40 / 04.10.08
If I understand you properly:

This isn't Animal Man, Freitas.
 
 
MFreitas
20:02 / 04.10.08
Nooooo!!! Really? Thanks. I was lost then.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:28 / 04.10.08
I'm just trying to figure out if you're joking.

You do understand that if it is Bob Kane, or whoever you're describing above, it would be totally shit?

Meta-textuality for the sake of it does not a good conclusion make. Grant got away with it once, with Buddy Baker, but he only gets one get out of jail free card from me. Not that he's going to need it, because I'm 100% unconvinced your theory amounts to anything other than the kind of predictable speculation re God's in the machine, exploding the fourth wall and self aware comic books one expects from a typical Morrison fan. You can do better than that. The Mayhew theory doesn't suck. I'm not sold on it, but it doesn't suck.
 
 
Triplets
21:29 / 04.10.08
It's Darkseid.
 
 
MFreitas
21:54 / 04.10.08
The Mayhew theory made sense and perfectly connected the dots between rich powerful people, medical researches and experiments, and a grudge against Batman. But the problem is simple: notority, or lack of it. If it wasn't for Morrison's comments, I'd bet my soul on Mayhew being the Black Glove. But who knows who Mayhew is?
 
 
Triplets
21:56 / 04.10.08
He's Hugo Strange.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:21 / 04.10.08
It's Officer Parkman,.
 
  

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