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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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The Natural Way
22:29 / 05.07.08
And as I say over at mindless ones, these bat-fisting guys have had held the reigns for far too long - it's time they let us have a go.
 
 
vajramukti
02:16 / 06.07.08
I'm still holding out for alfred as the outsider, but more and more I'm seeing something that is, indeed obvious and shocking.

what if the black glove is joe chill? is there any bigger bat villain than that? any more obvious one? you've already opened the door into otherdimensional imps supernatural events and death realms. you've named dropped the devil and 'joe chill in hell'. you've got the motivation: we see bruce torment the guy to the point of suicide.

in some sense batman's terrifying string of losses and ordeals over the years, the long history of failures and hard times that Grant is trying to rationalise, isn't that just Chill doing to bruce what bruce did to him? tormenting him until he cracks? that would explain why the club of villains is trying to break him, not kill him.

the overtones of class warfare, wanting to destroy the good name of the waynes, casting him down into the gutter so he can debase himself on the streets. and the ultimate revenge: turn damien into the absolute perversion of what bruce stood for. that's the point of the 666 issue. damien is batman, sure, but he's a fallen, debased batman, a betrayal of everything bruce stood for. he's joe chill's ultimate revenge. he not only destroys bruce, but his legacy.

actually we never see chill's death, only hear the gunshot... maybe this is how hurt comes in, or the evil 5th dimensional imps, or whatever...
 
 
This Sunday
02:31 / 06.07.08
Almost OT but not: Who does the balancing act between silly and terrifying for magical imps of the DCU better than Morrison?
 
 
Neon Snake
08:20 / 06.07.08
Quick aside for the trade-waiters:

When's the next trade again? Because I swear, they should be churning the things out -- bang bang bang!

Papers, it's out on the week of September 3rd, but it's an odd one. It includes the 3 issues featuring the Club Of Heroes, the ones drawn by JHW, and then skips to the ones featuring the return of Demonbats, and the flashbacks to Nanda Parbat.

The ones that it skips in the middle are Morrison's Ra'surrection issues. At this point, I haven't a clue how important they are to the whole narrative, but his issues are top banana, and worth picking up, but the story as a whole was, well, disappointing.
 
 
The Falcon
09:07 / 06.07.08
It ends with eggnog, though!

Mmmmm, disgusting eggnog.

A couple of things - i) it occurs that Bat-Mite is him/itself a glove of sorts for a creature which remains frustratingly just outta focus and ii) I'd honestly give up on the whole Dark Age expurgation, because if you have a look around it's all being reiterated these days, just levelled out with the other good stuff superheroes have to offer. It's fine, really, as far as I'm concerned - I like the best Dark Age stuff loads, and you do too, probably unless you're 45y.o.+ but people keep saying this and I can't help but read it as "I just want my comics a bit more soupy, more simpering". Backward-looking - if you really feel this way, boy, have I got a writer for you to check out.

His name is Mark Waid.
 
 
Spaniel
09:48 / 06.07.08
Lol.

Yeah, the dark stuff isn't going to disappear anytime soon, but Morrison may well let in considerably more light before he's done.
 
 
Triplets
11:45 / 06.07.08
I enjoyed Zur-En-Arrh Batman's final lines in this one, as they echo The Third Batman's words in the basement torture issue, "My God, I AM The Batman, and this is how I came to be". Hurt's obviously a sadistic bastard but it makes me wonder if his "Trauma can make a man more" school of psychiatry is actually what he's trying to do and not just what Grant's using him for (to make Batman acknowledge the grim and let in the light). The guy deals, forgive me, in hurt.
 
 
Triplets
12:01 / 06.07.08
More hurt!

He says, in this issue, "My how you've grown". We can either take this literally, in the sense that Hurt (or whoever he really is, if anyone) has watched Bruce grow from a traumatised little boy Bruce to an adult Batman. In which case this points to it being someone who's known of Bruce all his life... we "know" the cast of the Black Glove was involved with Martha and Thomas Wayne (allegedly; most likely a pack of lies designed to further discredit Bruce Wayne and hurt, Hurt!, Batman). In which case Hurt could very well be Joe Chill Jnr., Thomas Wayne or even Mangrove Pierce the actor.

The second interpretation is that Batman has grown physically/mentally/spiritually since the days of the Isolation Chamber Experiment. Hurt could be commenting that Bruce, having gone through No Man's Land, Azrael, BROKEN-BAT-BACKS, Tower of Babel, and more, has developed himself a lot since those early days with Robin. Which, again, makes me wonder if Hurt is, perversely, interested with Brucie's long-term development.
 
 
Spaniel
12:09 / 06.07.08
Perhaps both. Kept forgetting to mention that line - cheers for bringing it into the discussion, Trips.

Did anyone else find the final page loltastic.

"Uh oh!"
 
 
Triplets
12:32 / 06.07.08
"Uh oh!". Teh lols.

The grand scheme of Operation Black Glove seems to be to subvert and destroy Bruce's coping mechanisms, the core of them being "Batman". Take Batman away and leave Bruce as a strung out junkie. Make him fight fucked up copies of himself and his worst enemies. Neutralise the original Robin and leave him foaming in an Arkham rubber room. Hire the Joker. Beat the shit out of Alfred and have his girlfriend question if "The Batman" isn't just a little boy's fantasy writ large. All of Bruce's support structures coming away one by one.

Line that also stands out: "You know a better way to take the pain* away?", referring to a bag of smack. This being said just off Crime Alley no less. His whole future laid out in one question: How are you gonna deal with the horror? Do you die in the gutter or become the Batman? It's Batman's second birth, a repeat of his origin wrote for an adult Bruce.

*Pain might as well be replaced with "Hurt" for all the symbolism in that sentence.

Whether it's deliberately for ultimate good or ultimate bad remains to be seen. Interesting that the Black Glove isn't necessarily evil but is willing to take on that role (it's a service, remember) if an opponent defines themselves as "good".

What I still find skillient is that George has taken a two-page character from an old Batman story and turned into one of the nastier villains in recent Bat-history.
 
 
Johnny fighters
12:36 / 06.07.08
The last three pages are amazing. You can almost hear Baldy giggling to himself as he types those last few sentences. I think it's still ambiguous whether Bruce is rediscovering his sci-fi heritage or is losing his mind. He has the Bat-Radia but on the penultimate page it still looks like a shitty broken transistor radio.
 
 
Spaniel
12:49 / 06.07.08
Of course it's amibiguous. Where's the fun otherwise
 
 
vajramukti
15:15 / 06.07.08
grant has been struggling to reintroduce the sci fi batman for ages now. and it's hard to figure why exactly it was lost. there seems to be this schizoid thing where no one can be allowed to write batman as a hightech gadget hero with a bat theme? what's so hard about that? I mean do we seriously think a hard boiled detective in a batsuit can hang with the justice league?

that's what's so annoying about the way he's been handled for years and years. you're telling me he can fuck up a bunch of white martians with a book of matches, and yet he struggles with these jobbers like black mask, and the scarecrow? he uses justice league teleporters and then crawls through the sewer at home?

fuck it man. bust out the scifi closet. make his rouges gallery bring it up to the next level. let me see the noir-sci fi riddler, the blade runner scarecrow, crank croc up to the truly monstrous level.
 
 
Spaniel
16:12 / 06.07.08
I think "struggling" is the wrong way to frame it. It seems to me that he's found the interface between grim n gritty and day-glo to be ripe with storytelling potential. It's a synthetic space that hasn't been explored before, and it's all the more compelling for it (on the titles good days, that is)
 
 
Quimper
17:26 / 06.07.08
"You know a better way to take away the pain?"

Is that what this is about? I notice these iterations of the Bat running around who have inverted the original mantle. Bruce's Batman born from pain, but the League of Batmen and the Batman of Zur En Arrh both accepted the Bat mantle out of pride/admiration for what it could also represent. By Bruce donning the purples and reds, he is the superhero scientist...who wants to discover new and outrageous things! Not a stalemated moment of pain.
 
 
Triplets
17:44 / 06.07.08
the League of Batmen and the Batman of Zur En Arrh both accepted the Bat mantle out of pride/admiration for what it could also represent.

I really like this observation. Recall, also, a story from ages ago (can't remember if it's an elseworlds or what) but Batman ends up travelling through time/to a parallel universe and saves his mum and dad. At the end of the story we see Alt-Bruce has grown up to become Batman anyway, inspired to greatness by the man who saved his father.
 
 
MrKismet
22:38 / 06.07.08
Bat-radia = Mother Box

Honor Johnson (John's son?) = Scott Free

Jezebel Jet = Big Barda

Creepy Arkham doctor = DeSaad

Dr. Hurt = Denny O'Neill
 
 
The Falcon
23:06 / 06.07.08
In almost no way at all!

The first one is probably fairly accurate - the magical item, no-one's quite sure if it's bullshit or not (it won't be) but really afterward it fell to pieces in a short hail of nonsense.
 
 
--
01:51 / 07.07.08
To be honest I've never really liked the whole "Joe Chill killed Bruce Wayne's parents" thing. I prefer the original origin story, where the gun man is never named and Batman never catches him. Kind of more poetic, I guess. But that's just me.

I'm really starting to enjoy Simon Hurt's caharcter. I wasn't too impressed with him at first, but he's really become a much more impressive for over these last few issues (as has been noted). And he looks pretty cool in the proto-Batman outfit.

This is probably Morrison's most enjoyable work since "The Filth", and I can't wait to see how it all turns out. My only worry is that it seems like he only has 3 issues to wrap this up and there's so much going on. I know he has a spotty record when it comes to tying things up, but it's not like he's incapable of doing it (see "Doom Patrol").
 
 
simulated stereo
06:31 / 07.07.08
I thought Joe Chill killing Bruce Wayne's parents was the original origin and the Zero Hour event retonned it to an unknown killer.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:34 / 07.07.08
Grant doesn't have to wrap all RIP's strands by the end of the story arc, Sypha. There's no hard and fast rule preventing him from carrying the odd thing over into wherever he takes the book next.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
13:56 / 07.07.08
using Wikipedia as our White Casebook... from Joe Chill's entry:

Batman's origin story is first established in a sequence of panels in Detective Comics #33 (November 1939) that is later reproduced in the comic book Batman #1 (Spring 1940), but the mugger is not given a name until Batman #47 (June-July 1948). In that issue, Batman discovers that Joe Chill, the small-time crime boss he is investigating, is none other than the man who killed his parents. Batman confronts him and reveals his secret identity. Chill, frightened, seeks protection from his henchmen. Once they learn that Chill's actions led to the hated Batman's existence, they turn on their boss and fatally shoot him - just before they realize how valuable his knowledge is to them. Before a dying Chill has a chance to reveal Batman's identity, the Dark Knight intervenes and finishes the goons; Chill dies in Batman's arms addressing him by his true name.

In Detective Comics #235 (1956), Batman learns that Chill is not a mere robber, but actually a hitman who has murdered the Waynes on orders from a Mafia boss named Lew Moxon.

In the 1980 miniseries The Untold Legend of the Batman, Alfred Pennyworth reminisces that Joe Chill is the son of one Alice Chilton, one-time caretaker of young Bruce Wayne.



which prompted me to look Lew Moxon's up:


Sometime prior to their murder, Dr. Thomas Wayne and his wife attend a costume party - to which Dr. Wayne wears a bat-like costume. Wayne is taken from the party, by gun-point, to meet racketeer and bank robber Lew Moxon. Moxon orders Dr. Wayne to remove a bullet from his shoulder. Wayne carries out the operation before overpowering Moxon and his men.

Moxon is arrested and sentenced to 10 years for armed robbery. As he is taken away he swears revenge on Thomas Wayne. Ten years later, a free Moxon informs Thomas Wayne that he will get someone else to extract that revenge (that someone being Joe Chill). It is suggested that Chill was told to leave young Bruce alive so as to provide an alibi for Moxon.

Years later Batman learns of Moxon's involvement in the murder of his parents, by which time Moxon is operating a Billboard blimp business. Batman's first attempt to convict Moxon for the murder of his parents fails, as Moxon is now suffering from amnesia and is able to pass a lie detector test. Batman determines that Moxon's blimp business must be a cover for illegal activities and continues to trail the gangster. Eventually, after uncovering Moxon's illegal activities, Batman confronts the criminal while wearing his father's costume (his own had been ripped during an earlier fight). On seeing Dr. Wayne's costume Moxon suddenly remembers what he had done. Thinking Batman was actually Thomas Wayne's ghost, Moxon panics and runs out into the street, where he is hit by a truck and killed.
 
 
--
14:23 / 07.07.08
Oh, I always thought Joe Chill was a retcon. In the first Batman origin the mugger shoots both Thomas and Martha Wayne, while in the Chill version only Thomas is shot, though Martha dies of a heart attack (I think? I ahven't read that one in awhile now). Going by that Wikipedia entry, I highly doubt now that Simon Hurt is Joe Chill's son, seeing as there's already been a story involving Chill's son... unless he has more than one son. Hurt as Wayne's brother seems much more likely.

Actually one of the best things about Morrison's run on "Batman" so far is reading all of the fan theories, some of which are truly wacky. Recently on one message board (forget which one) someone put forth the theory that Honor Jackson was Joe Chill in disguise! Talk about grasping at straws...
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:31 / 07.07.08
I don't suppose there's any chance that a certain anti-Batman could be behind it all? Someone who's already got previous for playing hilarious mindgames with the Bat?

Oh hush Evil.
 
 
MFreitas
15:38 / 07.07.08
Yes, the theory of Honor Jackson as Joe Chill in disguise is just plain dumb. It was in DC Boards (at least...), where people also seem to have a fixation with Jason Todd and Jean-Paul Valley... Christ...

As for me, I really don't know waht to think any longer... Everything is possible at this point (within the realm of non-absurdity, of course).
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
17:50 / 07.07.08
Hurt could still be working for Joe Chill's son [Bruce's bastard half-brother?], who could be a perfect anti-Batman as the Black Glove, a man disguised behind a concept that managed to be as terryfying to a single person as Batman is to a whole subset of Gotham.

i'm enjoying this amalgam of theories so far [those that hold against the clues already presented], just not seeing yet how the scifi\supernatural stuff fits in. but when i do it'll be amazing, as reality vs. fiction and them holding hands is something we're seeing being pulled off even in the grim world of the modern goddamn Batman.
 
 
Quimper
20:52 / 07.07.08
I am so curious to see what happens when the wild card is introduced into the Club of Villains. Please, Grant, please have the Joker kill ALL of them for having the audacity to play with his toys without asking.
 
 
Neon Snake
21:03 / 07.07.08
I'd like that. Lots. I'd like to see Joker absolutely school these pretenders.
 
 
This Sunday
23:01 / 07.07.08
Honor Jackson as Joe Chill in disguise is just plain dumb. It was in DC Boards

The same thorough, canny detectives who figured out that 666's wings of black skin line referred not only to a devil with whom a deal had been struck, but to, yes, Jet and Jackson, or at least one of them. 'Cause... well... skin... black... donchasee?

I often use the DC boards to judge the veracity of all things in the DC Universe and in our own, like little bizarros in a bottled city of sad confusion.

That said, I notice a popular criticism of the run to date is that it's all about reference-spotting and really, I don't know that if no one had ever explained the connections to older issues and that they weren't exactly like what we're being shown of them now, that it would have significantly diminished my pleasure at the story at hand. I haven't wavered or soured on this run from the Joker-copter to now, and I've pretty much only had the references given me after first reading the issue(s) in question and enjoying them. The detective story is in/on the pages here, not in those old stories. Right?
 
 
MFreitas
15:58 / 08.07.08
From GM's revamped site:

"I just finished the script for #680, ‘the thin white duke of death’ with one of the best cliffhangers I’ve ever done, I reckon."

Thin? White? Outsider?
 
 
MFreitas
16:11 / 08.07.08
Or probably the Joker, of course... Doh! me...
 
 
Triplets
16:16 / 08.07.08
Head in shame, Mm... Freitas.

Boboss is coming to tell us "thin" and "white" are just anti-words. Anti-words concealing Darkseid. Any second now.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
16:24 / 08.07.08
The 'Thin White Duke' is one of David Bowie's many reinventions, just like the Clown At Midnight is for the Joker. The reference might imply that Joker is about to undergo another personality flip.
 
 
Neon Snake
16:40 / 08.07.08
If Black Glove is Alfred, then the happiness I will feel for MFreitas may well outweigh the fanboyish rage I will feel at Morrey for RUINING MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD!!!111!!!
 
 
--
17:12 / 08.07.08
Wow, I didn't even know that GM had a new website... I will say this newer one seems to be easier on the eyes than the old one with the black text on the red background. Wonder whatever happened to the whole Crack Comics thing. Or "The If."

One thing I don't quite get about GM's Batman run was the Mayhew/El Sombrero thing. In those issues we saw that Mayhew was disguising himself as El Sombrero, yet when the Club of Villians appear in a later issue we once again see El Sombrero. I take it this means that Mayhew was only pretending to be the real El Sombrero (for whatever reason)? And in the first Mayhew issue, on the very first page, when the Black Glove name appears for the very first time, we see a guy with a moustache hanging upside down, seemingly about to get knifed. IF that isn't Mayhew after all, then who...?
 
  

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