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Big Brother: Revenge of the Sixth.

 
  

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Ganesh
20:23 / 20.07.05
Science: I won't talk over you like you did with me.

Derek: Okay, so I just thi-

Science: WAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAHHHH, etc.

Science's method of proving he's not homophobic seems to be "holding Derek on his shoulder" - regardless of whether or not he wants to be touched, and in the face of his protestations otherwise. Derek ought to retaliate by kissing him.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:33 / 20.07.05
I'm suprised you can side with Derek over that. Accusing Science of being homophobic is unfair and whilst Science's method of proving he wasn't was fairly unorthodox, he's still got a very valid point. Science tried very hard to talk with Derek sensibly and (for once) listened whilst Derek said his bit, but then Derek just shouted over him. And then gave Makosi grief for not sticking up for him.

And I don't think not being able to spell is a valid reason for argument, it's just petty point scoring. So what if Science can't spell? He might be Dyslexic. We don't know and nor does Derek.

Science is consistent in that a/he constantly shouts to get his point across, but if you actually listen he's usuallly got a valid reason for his argument and b/he says what he really feels, regardless of the outcome.

I'm probably going to ge heaps of grief for this, but I think Derek is increasingly becoming a manipulative snake (as many people said early on, but I didn't believe them). Derek uses his education to belittle Science, he uses his posh voice to prove his intelligence, and quite frankly, I think Science is right about Derek being 'blackophobic'. Science's 'homeboy' attitude appears to be everything Derek despises about being black, and everything he has done his utmost to distance himself from in his life, up till now. Science horrifies Derek for all the wrong reasons, reasons which Derek will never admit.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:49 / 20.07.05
What I saw, Olulabelle, was Science calling Derek names, including fairy, in his usual ranty, shouty way. Derek said you don't like homosexuals, you don't like women and seemed to be winding up to who do you like? or who does that leave? but this was inaudible below Science's shrieking.

Science then started shouting I'm not homophobic and pawing at Derek, depsite Derek repeating asking him not to touch him. I'm astonished that Science is able to survive in the everyday world.

Watching him just now, with Eugene gently taking him to task over some of his behaviour and language, and yet again Science talks over his every point before he's made it and reconstructs events to remove any smidgeon of personal discredit.

But I am very biased. I can't stand the fu**er and I think, earlier, I did hope for more from him. Even quite admired his staunch refusal to be cowed. Now it just seems like inability to consider or appreciate anything other than his own interest and his hugely inaccurate personal legend. He's a troll.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:55 / 20.07.05
And...

Science is (has become) the group's whipping boy. There are now no devisive factions, it's the group against Science, with Makosi trying hard not to side but generally wanting to be with the group. No-one listens to him, and Derek is still actively talking over him even when Science is holding the talking stick. Anexample of this is during the Chinese meal/subject discussion moment when Science was talking and Derek a/first talked about prawn crackers and then, when no-one engaged with him, b/pulled the 'what the fuck are you on about' face.

I feel sorry for him because regardless of his faults, being on your own and 'the most hated' must be horrible, even Eugene has realised it's not good g*m*pl*n to talk to him. But Science is still taking it really well. No other housemate has ever had no-one on their side, even Nick because he was evicted.

But Science has not yet resorted to crying in the diary room or to slagging people off secretly. Anyone with that amount of spirit should be supported.
 
 
Ganesh
21:03 / 20.07.05
I'm suprised you can side with Derek over that.

I'm surprised you see my pointing out that repeatedly invading a gay person's body space against their will is a crap way of disproving homophobia is 'siding with Derek'. It's got fuck all to do with Derek. Would you tolerate someone disproving misogyny by repeatedly putting their hands on you, after you'd asked them to stop?

Accusing Science of being homophobic is unfair and whilst Science's method of proving he wasn't was fairly unorthodox, he's still got a very valid point. Science tried very hard to talk with Derek sensibly and (for once) listened whilst Derek said his bit, but then Derek just shouted over him. And then gave Makosi grief for not sticking up for him.

Bollocks. Science tried "very hard" for literally two seconds before reverting to type. I was listening carefully, and he did indeed do the shouty-shouty thing almost immediately.

Science is low-level unexamined homophobic in the same way as Maxwell was low-level unexamined racist ie. he may steer clear of much of the usual lingo, but his underlying assumptions are plain to see when he burbles on about "man points", Kemal not knowing if he's a man or a woman, etc., etc.

And I don't think not being able to spell is a valid reason for argument, it's just petty point scoring. So what if Science can't spell? He might be Dyslexic. We don't know and nor does Derek.

Sure. He might also be taking more than his share of the meagre rations because he's got Prader-Willi Syndrome, but I suspect it's more because he's a selfish cunt.

Science is consistent in that a/he constantly shouts to get his point across, but if you actually listen he's usuallly got a valid reason for his argument and b/he says what he really feels, regardless of the outcome.

I do listen. Sometimes yes, he does have a valid point. Often, he's simply shouting or chipping chipping chipping away at other housemates, who are forced to grit their teeth and just put up with it, because any interaction simply ups the decibel level.

When he does have a valid point, he consistently overstates it, bellowing until, no matter how argumentative the other party, they concede - because they can no longer bear the sound of his voice.

I'm probably going to ge heaps of grief for this, but I think Derek is increasingly becoming a manipulative snake (as many people said early on, but I didn't believe them). Derek uses his education to belittle Science, he uses his posh voice to prove his intelligence, and quite frankly, I think Science is right about Derek being 'blackophobic'. Science's 'homeboy' attitude appears to be everything Derek despises about being black, and everything he has done his utmost to distance himself from in his life, up till now. Science horrifies Derek for all the wrong reasons, reasons which Derek will never admit.

It's no great surprise that Derek's a manipulative snake - he's a Tory, for fuck's sake - and yes, I think he's repelled by Science for many "wrong reasons". Not all the "wrong reasons", though; I think he's often appalled merely by Science's self-centredness, utter lack of manners and general crapness at two-way communication - and apparent inability to ever just shut. the. fuck. up.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:05 / 20.07.05
All good points and clearly I've missed those interactions that account for him being second favourite to win in the bookies' charts.

I can't feel sorrow for his alienated position because I feel he has actively sought that and I am so tired of his eternal ranting. It's emotional incontinence. Like that of a spoilt child.

You're just a better person than I am, O.

Now, I shall move on to rant intemperately about Makosi... She has been possessed by the demon formerly known as Kemal's.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:21 / 20.07.05
Xoc, I think it's very difficult for me to look at Science like you do.

You see, what I see in Derek is vile in all it's forms and would be from anyone I watched, yet he seems to be 'allowed' the privilege of being awful, for various reasons. It is not OK to repeatedly say you would vote BNP because of Science, even if you are a black, gay conservative. What's worse is the fact that, not content with saying it in the diary room, Derek has now decided it was too good a soundbite to waste and in case the public hadn't seen it in the diary room has now announced that opinion to the whole of the group.

Science doesn't have the vocabulary or the education to put his point across like Derek can and so, yes, he resorts to shouting. I don't actually agree with Science's Adam and Eve speech, because for a minute I thought it was leading to, 'therefore homosexuality is wrong' but even though it did go a bit near the mark, it didn't actually lead to what I thought. What it actually led to was him talking about free-will, about accepting people for what they are, and FWIW I think I believe that he doesn't judge people on their sexuality.

Equally, I am not sure that calling someone a 'fairy' definitevely defines that person as homophobic. Science was very clear that he didn't say anyone should shut 'his gay mouth' but readily admitted to the use of the term 'fairy'. This suggests to me that he doesn't know it is offensive. Not so very long ago I started a thread about the use of the term 'red-indian' in the Headshop because I wasn't clear about it's connotations. I learned why it was a racist term, so I stopped using it. So if Science uses the word 'fairy' to mean a man who wears high heels, but isn't clear why that is offensive, shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see what he really thinks he meant when he said it?

Then, when we know the answer we can judge him.

Derek however has made it extremely clear that, despite being educated, he still believes it's acceptable to promote the BNP's opinion on television. You may say it was a flippant comment, and it may be that, but he has now said it twice.

Once was bad enough.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:33 / 20.07.05
I think he's often appalled merely by Science's self-centredness, utter lack of manners and general crapness at two-way communication - and apparent inability to ever just shut. the. fuck. up.

Do you? I think Derek is mainly appalled by Science because Science didn't go to posh school, because he doesn't know what hounds are, because he doesn't know which fork goes where, and because he doesn't defer to Derek, even though Derek is 'far' superior.
 
 
Ganesh
21:35 / 20.07.05
Science is (has become) the group's whipping boy. There are now no devisive factions, it's the group against Science, with Makosi trying hard not to side but generally wanting to be with the group. No-one listens to him, and Derek is still actively talking over him even when Science is holding the talking stick.

Science has not become "the group's whipping boy" overnight. He has earned pariah status by systematically wearing down each person's tolerance with the drip-drip-drip of his one-way Chinese Water Torture sniping. I think it's that, more than the shouting, which has eroded any residual goodwill. The shouting is his response to any sort of challenge, however mild. When people are silently (but obviously) pissed off and not wanting to talk to him, he contents himself with pursuing them around the House and denying them any sort of respite from his self-aggrandising chatter.

"Yeah, run away and cry, 'cause that's your plan, yeah, you might fool everyone else but you ain't fooling me, 'cause I'm Science, S. C. I. E. N. C. E., I'm the master here, I'm mastering you etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc."

It's not surprising that individuals with schizophreniform 'commentary' voices often end up trying to kill themselves. It's the fact that there's no getting away from the sound of that voice. Science hasn't merely superglued himself to the talking stick; he's made the concept of the talking stick wholly redundant. The other housemates have not dismissed Science out of hand. On the contrary, they have tried, individually and collectively, to engage him in discussion in other ways - and have sometimes been successful. Clearly, however, the rewards for persisting with Science are outweighed by the incredible drain on one's patience resources, and most of them have stopped bothering.

I feel sorry for him because regardless of his faults, being on your own and 'the most hated' must be horrible, even Eugene has realised it's not good g*m*pl*n to talk to him. But Science is still taking it really well. No other housemate has ever had no-one on their side, even Nick because he was evicted.

I suspect Eugene's realising it's not good to talk to Science because Science is not good to talk to. Science generally prefers to talk at someone rather than with them; it's not a discussion he wants but an audience. Even Eugene, with his somewhat inadequate communication skills recognises someone with worse communication skills.

And even speaking as someone who's not been trapped in there with him for weeks on end, unable to get away from his remorseless commentary, I don't think he's "taking it well".

But Science has not yet resorted to crying in the diary room or to slagging people off secretly. Anyone with that amount of spirit should be supported.

Isn't this just a variant on last year's straight-talkaaaz thing? The idea that it's someone nobler or more 'genuine' to tell people whatever you think of them whenever you think it than it is to heed their feelings at all. Brutally frank expression is valued over tact or consideration for others, which is seen as two-faced. It's a common Big Brother theme.
 
 
Ganesh
21:39 / 20.07.05
Do you?

Yes. Yes, I do.

I think Derek is mainly appalled by Science because Science didn't go to posh school, because he doesn't know what hounds are, because he doesn't know which fork goes where, and because he doesn't defer to Derek, even though Derek is 'far' superior.

Derek is generally appalled by the housemates' not knowing what forks are or which hound goes where blah blah fishcakes - but he generally managed not to lose the rag with them because he's able to communicate with them in the traditional you-talk-then-I-talk-then-you-talk way. Also, I don't recall any of them proving their tolerance of homosexuals by repeatedly slapping his shoulder.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:48 / 20.07.05
Isn't this just a variant on last year's straight-talkaaaz thing? The idea that it's someone nobler or more 'genuine' to tell people whatever you think of them whenever you think it than it is to heed their feelings at all.

No, I don't think so. I think that Science has consistently, and from the outset been considered a 'bit weird.' He does shout, and he does talk over people but generally very few people listen to anything he says at all. I think even I would start shouting all the time eventually.

Science has, from the very first day, not been in any group. Everyone has disliked him. That may be because he's loud and opinionated, blatantly sexist, and probably homophobic without realising it, (whatever the technical term is) but there are others in the group who have behaved just as (if not more) badly. Craig is hideously racist and shouts over people a lot, but he's made friends. Personally I don't understand why, because I think Craig is one hundred times more vile than Science. Derek is bigotted in the extreme but because he's gay, that's OK.

I think people have disliked Science from the outset because he doesn't follow the 'norm.' Because he talks to himself, because he didn't ingratiate himself with the group, because he likes his own company and because he hasn't wanted to take part in any of the petty, bitchy gossip. If there was one other person in there who behaved similarly, he might have had an ally. As it is, he permanently set himslef apart from the group really early on and (apart from a few instances like when Anthony was kind to him) for the rest of the time he has been laughed at, mocked, biched at and attacked.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:52 / 20.07.05
Also, I don't recall any of them proving their tolerance of homosexuals by repeatedly slapping his shoulder.

No. And neither did Science ever suggest that becoming a member of the BNP would be a good thing because of Derek.
 
 
Ganesh
21:58 / 20.07.05
You see, what I see in Derek is vile in all it's forms and would be from anyone I watched, yet he seems to be 'allowed' the privilege of being awful, for various reasons. It is not OK to repeatedly say you would vote BNP because of Science, even if you are a black, gay conservative. What's worse is the fact that, not content with saying it in the diary room, Derek has now decided it was too good a soundbite to waste and in case the public hadn't seen it in the diary room has now announced that opinion to the whole of the group.

This makes rather an assumption about Derek's motivations (too good a soundbite to waste, etc.) about the BNP comment in the same manner that you go on to criticise with regard to those making assumptions about Science's motivations in using the word "fairy".

I agree that Derek's opinions are not-infrequently vile, and it might well be acceptable for Science to be getting snippily abusive with him over his politics. He's not, though; he's having a go at his sexuality.

Science doesn't have the vocabulary or the education to put his point across like Derek can and so, yes, he resorts to shouting.

Thing is, he resorts to shouting within seconds of any sort of challenge. And, for what it's worth, while he may not have the education, I think he actually does have the vocabulary to engage in some sort of two-way communication. He doesn't have to shout to get a point across, in the same way as he doesn't have to follow individuals around the House, when they clearly don't want to talk to him, in order to hammer that point home. Then hammer it some more. And some more.

What it actually led to was him talking about free-will, about accepting people for what they are, and FWIW I think I believe that he doesn't judge people on their sexuality.

No, he's homophobic in terms of being relatively unexamined about sexuality rather than being actively anti- gay people. Just so long as they don't try and, y'know, kiss him or anything. Touching's okay, though, so long as it's him touching them. Repeatedly.

Equally, I am not sure that calling someone a 'fairy' definitevely defines that person as homophobic. Science was very clear that he didn't say anyone should shut 'his gay mouth' but readily admitted to the use of the term 'fairy'. This suggests to me that he doesn't know it is offensive.

Oh, come on. You reckon the Leeds ghetto is full of young black guys readily answering to the in-no-way-offensive epithet, 'fairy'? Not being from the ghetto I can't say either way, but I doubt it. I don't think Science would take kindly to it himself.

And I think it does signify homophobia in the same way as Saskia referring to the predominantly non-white housemates with whom she had problems as a "bunch of monkeys". It may not be actively "ist" but at best it's unexamined, and may reflect dubious underlying assumptions.

So if Science uses the word 'fairy' to mean a man who wears high heels, but isn't clear why that is offensive, shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see what he really thinks he meant when he said it?

Wearing high heels is hardly a defining characteristic of Derek. Difficult to see why he'd choose to comment on Derek's footwear at such a moment.

Derek however has made it extremely clear that, despite being educated, he still believes it's acceptable to promote the BNP's opinion on television. You may say it was a flippant comment, and it may be that, but he has now said it twice.

Once was bad enough.


Perhaps Derek didn't realise it was offensive? Perhaps he thought it meant "people who don't like high heels"? Etc., etc.

In any case, I don't see why disliking Science necessarily means one is somehow tacitly in favour of Derek? The mere fact that they're both black males doesn't mean criticising the words and behaviour of the one equals supporting the words and behaviour of the other.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:15 / 20.07.05
Great* chat-up lines of our time:

"Anthony, will your grandfather be watching this? Is he... old-fashioned?"

*= creepy and shit.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:16 / 20.07.05
Ganesh, I'm not saying you're in favour of Derek, just less likely to criticise him, except on a political level. I wonder why.

Please don't try and suggest I am comparing Science and Derek because they're black males, it's very unfair and it's not what I have said. I'm comparing the two because they are having the most frictional relationship in the house at the moment. Kemal, despite hating Science, has tried to talk with him whereas Derek appears to have decided Science is the most vile person he has ever come across and will not even tolerate being in the same room as him.

As for the 'don't kiss me' thing, Science didn't get in the pool with the girls either. Maybe it's any sexual contact that is the issue and given that, perhaps, even though he might be very wrong to do it, the "pawing at derek" thing is even more obviously an attempt to prove he isn't homophobic. Again, this is my suggestion of his behaviour, not what I necessarily think.

Also, I've tried to explain why I think Science isn't aware that his comments are homophobic. I may be wrong. I'm just suggesting why he might have said it; I haven't agreed with his opinion.

Finally, I totally don't understand why you are determinedly skipping the BNP comment. If someone had said that on this board all hell would have broken loose and I feel absolutely sure you would have had a great deal to say about it.
 
 
Ganesh
22:19 / 20.07.05
No, I don't think so. I think that Science has consistently, and from the outset been considered a 'bit weird.' He does shout, and he does talk over people but generally very few people listen to anything he says at all. I think even I would start shouting all the time eventually.

That's a little like saying Eugene has resorted to telling long boring stories to which no-one listens because no-one listens to him. Science began getting shouty with people in the first week.

Science has, from the very first day, not been in any group. Everyone has disliked him.

No they haven't. It's true that he hasn't consistently been part of any sort of alliance, but others have apparently liked him, and have made efforts to communicate with him, with varying degrees of success. After his Survived Eviction party, there was a swell of goodwill toward him (not all of which was down to a) his survival having broken the hated Team Saskia, and b) g*m*pl*nny fear/respect for the popular) and I was really hoping Science would manage to parlay some of that into a gentler, more connected form of engagement with at least some of his fellow housemates. Didn't happen.

That may be because he's loud and opinionated, blatantly sexist, and probably homophobic without realising it, (whatever the technical term is)

'Homophobic'.

... but there are others in the group who have behaved just as (if not more) badly. Craig is hideously racist and shouts over people a lot, but he's made friends. Personally I don't understand why, because I think Craig is one hundred times more vile than Science.

You might want to consider that, just maybe, Science hasn't made friends because, even more than the other housemates, he's made himself a thoroughly unrewarding person to be around. Craig is indeed racist and vile, but he's made friends because he's able and willing to make friends - and because, however much you might consider he shouts over people, he doesn't do so nearly as much as Science.

Derek is bigotted in the extreme but because he's gay, that's OK.

Do you genuinely believe that's what's being said here? That Derek's bigotry is "OK" because he's gay?

I think people have disliked Science from the outset because he doesn't follow the 'norm.' Because he talks to himself, because he didn't ingratiate himself with the group, because he likes his own company and because he hasn't wanted to take part in any of the petty, bitchy gossip. If there was one other person in there who behaved similarly, he might have had an ally. As it is, he permanently set himslef apart from the group really early on and (apart from a few instances like when Anthony was kind to him) for the rest of the time he has been laughed at, mocked, biched at and attacked.

And I think you're only partially right. I don't think Science has been disliked from the outset and become unlikeably ranty as a result. I think people have made an effort with him, at various times, but he's progressively alienated himself ("permanently set himself apart from the group") by being unlikeably ranty to (and beyond) the point where being around him becomes more hassle than it's worth. He has almost no discernable ability to ever back down from an argument: it's either escalating decibels or simply "you're wrong, you don't know what you're talking about, yeah, stop talking why dontcha, because you know I'm right, Science is right, and you not saying anything just proves that you've lost the argument and you're admitting you're wrong and I'm great blah blah fishcakes".
 
 
Olulabelle
22:31 / 20.07.05
Do you genuinely believe that's what's being said here? That Derek's bigotry is "OK" because he's gay?

Don't you think that's true? Why has it not been more discussed then? If, say, Saskia had made the BNP comment twice, don't you think you (and others) might have jumped on it by now?

OK, I feel a bit as if I'm being represented as saying something I'm not here.

I'm just trying to say that Science has had a lot to deal with and people are a bit overly quick to judge. I also don't get why it's OK for Derek to be a prick, but Science has to be villified when he says unacceptable things. He has not been 'openly' homophobic, (although I take your point about the 'fairy' comment), as Derek has been openly racist, but there seems to be a feeling that he definitely has.

BTW, my 'whatever the term is', referred to 'low-level unexamined homophobic'. I think you know that.
 
 
Ganesh
22:37 / 20.07.05
Ganesh, I'm not saying you're in favour of Derek, just less likely to criticise him, except on a political level. I wonder why.

It's us fairies, we're always closing ranks against the straights.

Seriously, I think I'm unlikely to criticise Derek on levels other than the political because I think his politics are by far the most odious thing about him. He's got shit gaydar (as I've pointed out) and he's a manipulative snake (as I've agreed), but I suspect that pretty much all his major flaws within the House relate to his politics - or, perhaps more accurately, his reasons for espousing those politics.

Please don't try and suggest I am comparing Science and Derek because they're black males, it's very unfair and it's not what I have said.

Fine; I apologise for suggesting as much. Likewise, please don't try and suggest I'm saying it's "OK" to be a bigot if you're a gay bigot. It's very unfair and it's not what I've said.

I'm comparing the two because they are having the most frictional relationship in the house at the moment. Kemal, despite hating Science, has tried to talk with him whereas Derek appears to have decided Science is the most vile person he has ever come across and will not even tolerate being in the same room as him.

Orlaith also seems to have problems being in the same room as Science, and has stated in the Diary Room on several occasions that he makes it impossible for her to tolerate the House. Anthony and Craig also have problems with him, but have become better at putting up with his extended "you're a prick, yeah fuck off if that's all you've got to say, I win" monologues.

As for the 'don't kiss me' thing, Science didn't get in the pool with the girls either.

Not quite the same level of contact as a kiss on the forehead.

Maybe it's any sexual contact that is the issue and given that, perhaps, even though he might be very wrong to do it, the "pawing at derek" thing is even more obviously an attempt to prove he isn't homophobic. Again, this is my suggestion of his behaviour, not what I necessarily think.

It's a little like me proving I don't hate women by showing I'm able to physically touch them, again and again, no matter how distressed they get, no matter how much they tell me to stop.

Also, I've tried to explain why I think Science isn't aware that his comments are homophobic. I may be wrong. I'm just suggesting why he might have said it; I haven't agreed with his opinion.

Sure. I'm just saying I think you're making a rather leaky case as Devil's advocate.

Finally, I totally don't understand why you are determinedly skipping the BNP comment. If someone had said that on this board all hell would have broken loose and I feel absolutely sure you would have had a great deal to say about it.

I'm not sure that I am "determinedly skipping" the BNP comment, so much as not linking it to my reasons for being pissed off with Science. It's Science rather than Derek who's up this week, so I'm tending to summarise my reasons for disliking Science (and wanting him out) rather than my reasons for disliking Derek. The fact that I haven't abandoned one line of discussion to enthusiastically grasp another doesn't mean I've "skipped" the latter.

And yes, depending on the individual concerned, I might well have had "a great deal to say" about a similar comment made on Barbelith. Recognising that Barbelith is not the same thing as the Big Brother House, however, I've evolved different tolerance levels for each, where "isms" are concerned.
 
 
Ganesh
22:56 / 20.07.05
Don't you think that's true? Why has it not been more discussed then? If, say, Saskia had made the BNP comment twice, don't you think you (and others) might have jumped on it by now?

No necessarily, no. It'd depend on the extent to which I'd picked up on it (in Derek's case, I recall seeing the Diary Room comment but not the subsequent one), my own impression of the context (whether I think it's intended as serious or ironic; whether it's being said by a white or non-white person; whether I think they think they're being shocking, etc., etc.).

If you're saying I've underreported it because, as one of teh gays, I'm deliberately minimising the degree of offensiveness, then I'm rather bemused. I might point out that, by failing to sufficiently "jump on" Science's 'fairy' comments, you straights are closing ranks, and claiming it's okay to be homophobic if you're black.

OK, I feel a bit as if I'm being represented as saying something I'm not here.

Join the club. I'm feeling like shaving my head and becoming the new Pim Fortuyn here.

I'm just trying to say that Science has had a lot to deal with and people are a bit overly quick to judge.

It's been what? seven weeks? I don't think that's overly quick to tire of the same old same old ranting (particularly for those who have to live with him).

I also don't get why it's OK for Derek to be a prick, but Science has to be villified when he says unacceptable things.

Well, it's virtually impossible to vilify everyone simultaneously to exactly the same degree of vilification, and Science is my current bugbear because a) he's up for eviction this week and I'd like to see him go, and b) Science's "unacceptable things", while no more odious than Derek's, currently irritate me much more because of the way he bellows them. I actually have to turn the volume on the television set down when he starts up. My fists clench, and I think, "fuck, how do they manage to avoid slapping him?"

My dislike of Science is a visceral one, resulting from his torturous means of communicating rather than what he's communicating (although much of that annoys me too).

BTW, my 'whatever the term is', referred to 'low-level unexamined homophobic'. I think you know that.

And I'm being serious: I don't think there is a specific term for low-level prejudice arising from ignorance or lack of critical examination rather than active hatred. Perhaps we should refer to High Racism and Low Racism?
 
 
Olulabelle
22:59 / 20.07.05
Ganesh, I apologise for sounding like I meant you were a gay bigot. I absolutely didn't.

I do think Derek is a bigot. He also happens to be gay. My point was that I don't understand why his bigotry is being ignored unless his gayness somehow gives him 'extra credit', where Science's lack of education 'loses him points'.

I know that Barbelith is not the same as the Big Brother house, but I don't see that there should be different tolerance levels; either something is unacceptable, or it isn't. If that's not the case and there are different 'ism' levels, then how can it not be alright to reserve judgement on Science's homophobia until such time as we are presented with it emphatically, rather than being given the edited highlights?
 
 
Olulabelle
23:04 / 20.07.05
And I'm being serious: I don't think there is a specific term for low-level prejudice arising from ignorance or lack of critical examination rather than active hatred. Perhaps we should refer to High Racism and Low Racism?

Low level unexamined homophobic was your term used in all seriousness further upthread, as in:

Science is low-level unexamined homophobic in the same way as Maxwell was low-level unexamined racist ie. he may steer clear of much of the usual lingo, but his underlying assumptions are plain to see when he burbles on about "man points", Kemal not knowing if he's a man or a woman, etc., etc.

I had never heard of it before!
 
 
Ganesh
23:07 / 20.07.05
And neither did Science ever suggest that becoming a member of the BNP would be a good thing because of Derek.

No. But I believe we were talking about the reasons why Derek might find Science more appalling than the other housemates (who, on the whole, also don't seem to have gone to "posh schools", etc., etc.) - and I think one of the factors that differentiates Science from the other yobbo riff-raff is the fact that Science is ready to invade Derek's physical space in an irritating, faintly threatening way (repeatedly slapping his shoulder).

I don't think Science's Godawful nails-on-a-blackboard communication skills excuse Derek's comments, but I think they're a large part of what caused him to make them - more so than simple class prejudice.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
23:12 / 20.07.05
Another awful wanker exposed. Surely these people have odd ideas about privacy in the BB house. If they went to the bathroom, stripped naked and danced around singing "I'm wanking, wanking my plank, wank, wank, wank" while wanking, I doubt anyone outside the house would ever here of it.
 
 
Ganesh
23:19 / 20.07.05
I do think Derek is a bigot. He also happens to be gay. My point was that I don't understand why his bigotry is being ignored unless his gayness somehow gives him 'extra credit', where Science's lack of education 'loses him points'.

If you mean Derek's bigotry is being ignored by me, then I think I've outlined some of my reasons for talking up the Science-hate rather than the Derek-hate in my posts above. I don't think Derek's sexuality gains him 'Ganesh points', but his general courtesy (when it comes to dialogue) does. Similarly, Science's lack of formal education doesn't lose him 'Ganesh points', but his inability to ever concede a point does - as does his tendency to make me want to pierce my eardrums with corncob forks.

I know that Barbelith is not the same as the Big Brother house, but I don't see that there should be different tolerance levels; either something is unacceptable, or it isn't.

Yes, but I'm able to influence Barbelith in ways I'm unable to influence Big Brother (or, indeed, other aspects of the non-virtual world), so different tolerance levels evolve because non-Barbelith things have to be tolerated. It's unacceptable to make homophobic comments on Barbelith, and moderators can enforce that. It's unacceptable for the group of young men I pass in the street to make homophobic comments but, faced with little viable alternative, I do accept it. Different situations, different tolerance levels.

If that's not the case and there are different 'ism' levels, then how can it not be alright to reserve judgement on Science's homophobia until such time as we are presented with it emphatically, rather than being given the edited highlights?

It's perfectly alright for you to do that if you like, as it's perfectly alright for me to take issue with it on grounds of (to me) implausibility.
 
 
Ganesh
23:21 / 20.07.05
Low level unexamined homophobic was your term used in all seriousness further upthread

Yeah, I know. You seemed to be asking whether there was a specific term for 'low-level unexamined homophobia', other than 'low-level unexamined homophobia' - and I was saying there isn't, as far as I know. Like I say, perhaps we should distinguish between High and Low Isms...
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:17 / 21.07.05
Just to stick my oar in (as overwhelmingly late to the conversation as I am).

Science is homophobic in a more literal sense of the term. I honestly don't think he actively hates gay people, but he is obviously uncomfortable with the concept and proximity of gay people. Not that this excuses him in any way.

I will point out that Derek is quite happy to label Science as a peasant, with all the negative connotations that carries (i.e. that he's fit for nothing more than working for his betters and deserves no opinion of his own).

Both insults (ie fairy and peasant) have equal venom IMO as they are both intentionally derogatory of the other's lifestyle.
 
 
Spaniel
12:51 / 21.07.05
Lula, I want you to imagine living with Science. Imagine living with someone who only ever shouts, always has to be right, is boorish, selfish, and childish to the extreme, oh, yeah, and he's a homophobe.

I'm sorry, but however much I disapprove of Derek, he'd almost certainly be easier for me to actually live with.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:44 / 21.07.05
I don't know if I could live with either of them personally. Science is way too anal about cleaning stuff, plus the shouting would get on my nerves after the first few days. Equally though Derek's obvious contempt for my middle-class ways and basic assumption that he's superior to anyone with an accent would have me committing bloody murder in the night.

That said: Makosi's hair'd get in the way of the telly. Eugene would out-geek me. Anthony'd or Orlaith would bore me.

I'm not even going to contemplate the grim horror of living with Craig (shudder).
 
 
Olulabelle
14:50 / 21.07.05
I've just tried really hard to imagine living with each of them and now I feel a bit sick.

Barbelith people are infintely nicer.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:52 / 21.07.05
I just always, always have this underdog thing, that's all; a burning desire to stick up for the person everyone hates.

Which sometimes overshadows that fact that there are generally eminently sensible reasons for hating them.
 
 
Ganesh
10:04 / 22.07.05
I will point out that Derek is quite happy to label Science as a peasant, with all the negative connotations that carries (i.e. that he's fit for nothing more than working for his betters and deserves no opinion of his own).

I actually think the 'peasant' comment reflected more badly on Derek than the "it's enough to make me vote BNP" stuff.

Keen to write more on Derek, especially after the nuggets of info on his background from last night's BBLB. Unfortunately, owing to a fuck-up on the part of BT, we're not gonna have home broadband for a couple of days - so my incisive character analysis should be well-stewed by the time I next post.
 
 
Triplets
19:31 / 22.07.05
Well, thank fuck for that.
 
 
Shrug
19:56 / 22.07.05
But how will you sleep at night now he's been released?
He's just out here

with

us..
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:28 / 23.07.05
Oh damn it. I much preferred watching Science to Orlaith.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:32 / 23.07.05
Oh moonpig, first you went leaving me cold and alone on this earth without any Yorkshire brutality in my life. Now Science, also dreadful but always chatting to the cameras. How I miss you young ruffians and now I'm left with boredom, utter boredom. Miserable world.
 
  

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