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Lost (US thread)

 
  

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Triplets
08:51 / 15.11.05
Executive Producers : Hey so we already resemble Twin Peaks in alot of ways, is there anything else we could do to make that connection.

Assistant: Backwards Talk?

Executive Producer: Ognib.
 
 
Spaniel
09:43 / 15.11.05
Well, I'm glad that it works for you, but I think it's just sloppy writing.

Fucking hell, I'd be the first to say Lost suffered from sloppy, simplistic writing, but AL's behaviour just isn't an example of it. At risk of sounding like an arsehole, I really think you need to engage the empathy switch.

Christ, have you read Lord of the Flies?
 
 
gridley
12:20 / 15.11.05
Or come on Boboss, when have you even been afraid of being an arsehole?

My empathy switch is just fine.

And no, Flyboy, this is not the first instance, just the most annoying one so far this season.
 
 
Spaniel
17:55 / 15.11.05
Boring, I know, but I really can't let this one drop.

The thing is, Gridders, your thinking is absolutely opaque to me. I really can't get my head around why you would think AL's behaviour makes no sense. As far as I'm concerned, what's more fantastical is that more people aren't behaving like wankers.

My question about Lord of the Flies wasn't rhetorical, by the way.
 
 
gridley
18:31 / 15.11.05
Of course I've read Lord of the Flies. Is it your point that adults and children behave in the same way in new and stressful situations? That the same rules apply whether you're talking about adults or young boys?

I don't believe that her years of experience interacting with other adults would have vanished the moment she was forced to deal with other adults in a new and dangerous environment.

If her character had been living alone on the island and for longer than 40 days (like say Danielle), her behavior would make sense. But she's been surrounded by at least a few mostly helpful people during that time.

Like, I said, I'm glad you like her. But I think she's been written terribly so far. She's cunning and smart when it's convenient to the writers for her to be so, and she's a raving feral child when they want to conceal what's going on or inject a non-dramatic scene with a bit of tension. I don't like her.
 
 
buttergun
19:13 / 15.11.05
No one likes her. The best thing about the sad downturn this thread has taken is learning that most Lost fans in fact do not like the loathsome Anna Lucia, or Ana-Lucia, or whatever the hell you want to call this waste of space.

I've made my reasons clear for disliking this character, and regret none of them.

The Lost producers have stumbled. Despite her quickie intro last season, they've set A-L up as an unlikeable character. Plus, they've had her kill a Lost regular -- who I'm sure, despite her faults, had more fans than A-L herself. No matter what harrowing events the producers will one day present us as occuring in A-L's past which have caused her to act as she does, I predict the initial sour taste she's left in our mouths will not evaporate. First impressions mean everything.

Hell, she even grated the nerves in her quickie intro in the season finale -- coyly flirting with Jack moments after discovering his father had died, and not offering even a curt gesture of sympathy.

Lord of the Flies is one of my favorite novels. And like another poster already wrote, it's moot to compare FTLB to any of those characters.
 
 
Spaniel
22:14 / 15.11.05
Grids.

You've been in a plane crash

You're lost on a dangerous island. There is no culture, there are no rules, society is a memory, there is no one to turn to.

You might never see your friends and family *ever* again. Christ, you might never watch TV again, or read a novel, or go a restaurant, or go to work, or go on holiday, or vote, or eat a biscuit, or walk your dog, or dance to music, or...

You have to fight for survival every day, and that's before...

...You've been attacked by hostile natives.

You've watched the only people you have left die around you, possibly in very unpleasant circumstances.

You have to live every second of every day in fear. Fear that you could be next. Fear that you'll fail the people you're responsible for.

And then three strangers turn up. At best they're ignorant yahoos that are going to get you and those you are responsible for killed, at worst they're in cahoots with the natives.


Why am I still going on about this? Because my *experience* IRL is of people behaving very badly under far, far less stressful circumstances. Not exceptionally difficult people. Not people with anger issues. Not aggressive people. Just folks.
That's why I don't get where you're coming from with this.

You don't find anything I've written at all persuasive?
 
 
Spaniel
22:19 / 15.11.05
Oh, and I never said I liked her. I might grow to like her, however.
 
 
Spaniel
22:30 / 15.11.05
And, finally, Lord of the Flies really isn't about the peculiar psychology of children. It's an allegorical novel based on the premise that society is a thin veneer, and that in its absence people will do very bad things, things much worse than anything I've seen Ana-Lucia do.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
00:21 / 16.11.05
Boboss 100000000000000000% OTM.
 
 
Triplets
00:26 / 16.11.05
The best thing about the sad downturn this thread has taken

What downturn?, when people started using misogynistic terms to refer to her, or when people started pointing out that that was, y'know, a tad dodgy?

If anything Ana-Lucia has moved us away from Mystery of the Week (i'm guilty of that myself, I know) and opened a pretty interesting discussion on gender, sexism, dislikeable protagonists, socialising in extreme conditions and a half-dozen other topics.
 
 
gridley
02:40 / 16.11.05
Ok, once more...

You're lost on a dangerous island. There is no culture, there are no rules, society is a memory,

That's just it. In my experience, most adults have those rules so ingrained into them that they can't let go of them if they try. Maybe after a year or two. But not after a month.

there is no one to turn to.

You mean except for Mr. Echo and the others?

You might never see your friends and family *ever* again. Christ, you might never watch TV again, or read a novel, or go a restaurant, or go to work, or go on holiday, or vote, or eat a biscuit, or walk your dog, or dance to music, or...

You have to fight for survival every day, and that's before...


That's a bad time. I agree. I don't, however, think it erases a lifetime of conditioning and experience.

...You've been attacked by hostile natives.

All the more reason not to recklessly attack three unknown people when you don't have to.

You've watched the only people you have left die around you, possibly in very unpleasant circumstances.

Again, except for those who haven't died, like Mr. Echo and the others.

You have to live every second of every day in fear. Fear that you could be next. Fear that you'll fail the people you're responsible for.

And then three strangers turn up. At best they're ignorant yahoos that are going to get you and those you are responsible for killed, at worst they're in cahoots with the natives.


And that's why you stay away from them. Instead of pointlessly attacking them and then needlessly antagonizng them once you've let them go.

---

I maintain my opinion that her behavior is highly irrational and therefore annoying. You maintain that her irrationality is exactly what you would expect and therefore you like it even though you don't like her. Fair enough.
 
 
Aertho
03:03 / 16.11.05
Respect buttergun, but:

When you type this without an accompanying ironic door-slam:
I've made my reasons clear for disliking this character, and regret none of them.

And immediately follow it with this:
The Lost producers have stumbled.

That's rabid fanboy tawk.

I like that we have an asshole on the show again. When we started out, Jin was an asshole, Sawyer was an asshole, Jack was an asshole, and Shannon was an asshole. Charllie's becoming an asshole now, Jack's still an asshole, and now we've got Ana-Lucia Cortez.

To spin this back toward mysteries... Has anyone seen the Bohemian Rhapsody music video set to Lost scenes? The Lost Podcast mentioned it. Also, if anyone can verify, the scene where Eko and Jin see the Others' feet, apparently a few sets of feet repeat, like a Scooby Doo running montage. Teddy bear on a rope is also from this little movie about Lost Boys...


They're all huddled around TinkerWalt.
 
 
Krug
07:36 / 16.11.05
/When we started out, Jin was an asshole, Sawyer was an asshole, Jack was an asshole, and Shannon was an asshole. Charllie's becoming an asshole now, Jack's still an asshole, and now we've got Ana-Lucia Cortez./

I think you think everyones an asshole too quickly because I didnt think Jin or Jack were ever assholes. AL has got nothing going for her, her assholism seems more extreme because her acting really makes it look unbelievable and implausible. Which is why gridley persists in his view. I think. I agree with Boboss but I think you're giving too much credit to a character played by the worst actress on the show.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
10:30 / 16.11.05
I'm finding myself reluctantly in the pro-AL camp now even though she is incredibly frustrating when she's onscreen. I think my only major problem with her other than general annoyance at her personality- and the only really overtly irrational aspect of her personality- is the fact that she hasn't explained what happened to the other Tailaways other than a vague 'They came and took some of us, then a while later they came and took some more, now it's only us left' which doesn't really answer any question other than that the Others have appeared and done some unspecified thing to the majority of the tailaways. Now, this is obviously an attempt by the show's producers to draw out the suspense and keep secrets as they have in the past; however, the difference here is that this time, a single character knows the big secret, knows other people want to know it, and is refusing to tell it for no other reason than that the producers want to keep it from the audience. Also of note, all the other tailaways know the same things as her and aren't telling, but the focus is on her because she's annoying to begin with and because she gave the unsatisfying explanation of the last episode. I don't think that the rest of her actions are particularly irrational given that she underwent one extremely traumatic experience and then saw 17 of her companions get kidnapped, die, or go insane (I suspect a combination of the three- I still like my 'island madness sickness' theory)- as was mentioned before, she's trying really, really hard to keep it together and keep her friends alive, and realizes at the same time that she's in way over her head and as a result she's not a particularly effective leader. Really, the major problem I can see with her at the moment is that she's being forced to act unrealistically in one specific way to serve the show's dramatic structure. Hopefully once they get around to showing what happened to everyone (next episode, god willing) she'll be much less annoying. There's some good stuff to her character, and I'm pretty interested to see what'll happen when she meets Jack again, and how she tries to assert herself in the power dynamic of the castaways. And, of course, what the deal is with Mr Eko.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:45 / 16.11.05
the difference here is that this time, a single character knows the big secret, knows other people want to know it, and is refusing to tell it for no other reason than that the producers want to keep it from the audience.

Again, I don't see how this is different from the behaviour of Locke, Jack and Kate, to name but three, at various stages.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
12:01 / 16.11.05
I dunno, maybe it's just that I haven't seen the first season in half a year, but I don't remember Locke, Jack or Kate having any secrets of this magnitude or that were this important to the show- can you think of any examples? I seem to remember most of their secrets being personal in nature, nothing along the lines of 'OMG something terrible happened to us and that's why we're all extremely paranoid and fearful for our lives but we aren't going to tell you for half a dozen episodes even though explaining things would make you vastly more cooperative and we wouldn't have to bully you all the time to get you to do things.' At least, I can't remember anything sticking out as having no possible reason for being hidden other than that the producers wanted to stretch things out. Again, I might just be misremembering; or it might, as I mentioned, just be that it sticks out this time because the character who knows The Big Secret is pretty annoying to begin with.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:56 / 16.11.05
Well, to take just one example, "See anything in the jungle, Locke?" - not to mention the fact that he was healed, which has large implications for the island, and the Hatch. But as a general principle, the survivors from the front end of the plane are very, very bad at not pooling their knowledge, or mentioning all the weird little things that may be of relevance at any given time, or even asking the right questions. I don't see the point of singling out Ana-Lucia for her cryptic ways, when everyone else does it.
 
 
buttergun
12:58 / 16.11.05
Thanks for the head-clearing Chad...didn't realize I came off so fan-ish. Wasn't my intention in the least! Just wanted to point out that you can't make a character so hateable at the outset and then attempt to appeal to viewers' sympathies by giving that same character some sob story background.

Of course, this might all just be cloud talk, and FTLB will be eviscerated by the island monster in the next episode. Wouldn't that be great?

Finally, as for the Lord of the Flies analogy...I still don't buy it. By that logic, New York City would've devolved into an anarchic no-man's land immediately post-9/11. Obviously, this didn't happen -- and I'd say those events were more harrowing for the people who lived through them than anything the Lost characters have gone through.
 
 
gridley
13:07 / 16.11.05
Again, I don't see how this is different from the behaviour of Locke, Jack and Kate, to name but three, at various stages.

See now, I can see why Kate would to keep the details of her criminal history a secret (although that "I want to tell, no now I don't want to tell you anymore" business was annoying).

And Locke being Locke, I can see why he wants to keep whatever secret of the Island he has to himself. He's like one of those ancient priests protecting the mysteries or whatever.

But Ana (and the other people from the tail section who seem to be following her lead on this) refusing to answer basic questions about what's going on just seems like a bad writer's trick to keep suspense going for another week of november sweeps.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:09 / 16.11.05
Well done, buttergun, you're quite right, post-9/11 in New York City, the majority of people were living in exactly the circumstances Boboss describes here.

Well done also for continuing to use the expression 'Faux-Tough Latina Bitch', or shorthand for it.

Well done.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
13:39 / 16.11.05
Well, to take just one example, "See anything in the jungle, Locke?" - not to mention the fact that he was healed, which has large implications for the island, and the Hatch.

As Gridley says- Locke's character has been secretive from the start. Keeping secrets about himself and his relationship to the island is a central part of his character. Sure Locke could sit down and explain everything but he doesn't because he presumably has a good reason to keep it secret. He's been set up as mysterious from the start-I don't know how to explain it better than that- but AL (and the other tailaways) hasn't demonstrated that she has any reason not to tell. She hasn't been established as a secretive character. Maybe she doesn have some reason not to tell, but there hasn't been any hint about it.

But as a general principle, the survivors from the front end of the plane are very, very bad at not pooling their knowledge, or mentioning all the weird little things that may be of relevance at any given time, or even asking the right questions.

No argument here.

I don't see the point of singling out Ana-Lucia for her cryptic ways, when everyone else does it.

Because this is being set up as a major, major plot point; it's knowledge of something that's way more important than any of the small things that people happen to not be mentioning to each other and as such it's waaaay more unrealistic an omission, and way more glaring.
 
 
Triplets
17:02 / 16.11.05
I think my only major problem with her other than general annoyance at her personality- and the only really overtly irrational aspect of her personality- is the fact that she hasn't explained what happened

Petey is rocking this harder than I, but: there's three others Tailaways in the group, dude. Eko/Libby/Bernard have all been as tight-lipped.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
18:09 / 16.11.05
Petey is rocking this harder than I, but: there's three others Tailaways in the group, dude. Eko/Libby/Bernard have all been as tight-lipped.

Yeah, I know. I was focusing on AL because that was where the discussion seemed focused- some people saying 'AL is totally irrational and she's a terrible character and I hate her' others saying 'all of AL's behavior is perfectly rational and she's a good character' and me falling mostly in the pro-AL camp, ie she's a pretty good character all things considered but she has one glaring flaw which is probably due to the producers doing what they do and trying to stretch the suspense a bit, but it stands out more this time around because the stakes are higher; in other words, a flaw that's probably going to be corrected soon, so not a fatal one. I got a bit caught up in the argument though so I probably didn't make that clear. My coherence in this thread lately leaves something to be desired regardless.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:47 / 16.11.05
You guys do realize that the show is not happening in real time, right? The Ana Lucia group has only been with Michael, Jin, and Sawyer for a brief span of time. They've been mainly focused on moving from point a to point b and staying alive. They aren't sure if they even TRUST them. It's not so hard to imagine why they haven't been entirely fortcoming.
 
 
buttergun
19:35 / 16.11.05
That brings up a good point. I re-watched Season 1 on DVD, but forgot to take note of the length of time between Boone's death and the events of the season finale.

This season has taken place on the same day as the season finale, and (I assume) a day or so after. So how long before this did Boone die? A few days? A week? The reason I wonder is because, for the islanders, Shannon's death has come only a few days after Boones.

We just lose sight of that, watching the show over several months. But for the islanders, it will no doubt come as a double shock -- two deaths so close together.
 
 
tea and biscuits
19:46 / 16.11.05
Supposed character flaws or justifications aside, the moment when I really switched off in the episode was:

EKO: Yes, but we have to go. I saw them.
CINDY: What?
BERNARD: What do you mean, you saw them?
CINDY: How many were there?
LIBBY: Did you see the kids?
ANA: (sharply) Libby.


Although it's entirely realistic dialogue, the fact that once again circumstances conspire to speedy movement instead of explanations seems to take the form of taunting. Oh look! Here's some sort of randomly tossed out key plot point which cannot be investigated due to mysterious backstory feelings and danger! Guess the audience better spend the next few weeks discussing and hyping it up instead!

It just seems so cynical, a view which impacts on the credibility of Ana and her motivations.
 
 
tea and biscuits
19:56 / 16.11.05
Googling "lost timeline" would probably have taken less time than writing that comment. That said, the fan-made timelines do seem to conflict. The most accurate records suggest a difference of less than a week: Boone does on Day 41, Shannon on Day 47.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
21:05 / 16.11.05
The relatively short time that MJS have spent with the tailaways doesn't make much difference, in my opinion- there were still plenty of opportunities to explain things, when they should have been explained. I'd forgotten about that exchange between AL and the other tailaways, though. I hereby modify my assessment from 'no reason to keep things secret' to 'probably a half-assed reason for keeping things secret but I'll wait and see.' And by 'wait and see' I of course mean 'hopefully find out in the next episode.'
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:32 / 16.11.05
I am amazed by the lack of sympathy some of you have for the fact that the writers are creating a SERIAL designed to give you LOTS OF QUESTIONS so that you KEEP WATCHING THE SHOW. If they didn't give you lots of reasons to be curious about where the show was going, the show would not be nearly as successful as it is. Hints and foreshadowing and being coy about details is all part of the magic, kids.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:34 / 16.11.05
If you want to see stories in which all the plot points are resolved in an hour or two, perhaps you should consider sticking to movies. But I hate to tell you, some movies even leave room for ambiguity! (OMG life is that way too!)
 
 
gridley
22:48 / 16.11.05
A little over the top, isn't that, Flux?

People shouldn't be allowed to think critically about their entertainment? You're making it sound you think it's somehow ungrateful to have a negative opinion about someone else's art.
 
 
gridley
23:02 / 16.11.05
Since this subject refuses to die, I have to admit to being really confused by why you three (flux, boboss, and flyboy) are so exasperated by my dislike of this particular character.

I feel like if I had posted about disliking some other character, say Jack, you would have said, "Huh... that crazy Gridley, how can he not like Jack" and let it die. But something about Ana Lucia drives you.

And maybe I'm wronb but I feel like it's not even that you like the character so much or even that you give such a such a damn about Lost.

Is it because she's a woman? Is this some form of chivalry where you feel like you have to rush to the defense of a damsel in distress? Is it personal?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:11 / 16.11.05
Actually, my problem with you is that you're being whiney waaaaaaaaaaay more than you're being critical. It's fine to not like the character, whatever, she's designed to be very grating from the get-go, but you're being very ridiculous with your reasons - you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the artform of serialized commercial television in particular, and of basic human psychology in general.
 
 
Triplets
23:29 / 16.11.05
Is it personal?

I'm hoping Michelle will invite me to play swingball.
 
  

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