BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Lost (US thread)

 
  

Page: 1 ... 910111213(14)1516171819... 52

 
 
Spaniel
19:20 / 13.11.05
You'll have to forgive me, Keith, if I am a little more suspicious of people's motivations.
For the record, I don't think the actress that plays Ana-Lucia is particularly bad - certainly no worse than many in the cast, and considerably better than some.
 
 
Krug
19:37 / 13.11.05
Sawyer's actor knows how to act.
FTLB doesn't.

Sawyer seems to be just a poor bastard with daddy issues whose assholism anyone can see through. I don't remember Sawyer punching people just because they weren't listening to him. Sure he got into a scuffle with Sayid in the pilot but that was a racist trying to blame someone. Sawyer has redeeming qualities while AL doesn't. AL punching people acting badass just feels completely fake and I dunno anybody could beat her up.

It's as simple as that. There's no misogyny.

The statement that nobody's a terrific actor on Lost is a semi-valid one but if you've been watching the show for this long you seem to accept the standards of acting from season 1, and now in season 2 we have someone who makes everybody in the show look like they're Ellen Burstyn and John Hurt.
 
 
Spaniel
19:55 / 13.11.05
Except, you know, that I don't agree with your assessment, and you seem to have entirely misinterpreted mine. Read through my last post again.

And, for fucks sake, let's drop this FTLB shit right now. Whether you like the character or not, it's unneccessary, and not a little offensive.
 
 
Aertho
20:18 / 13.11.05
Who's to say Ana-Lucia doesn't have Daddy issues of her own? Or has a sick sad hard to swallow backstory just this side of Locke's?

Cover and book. Jesus.

Exercise some patience.
 
 
Triplets
21:01 / 13.11.05
Sawyer seems to be just a poor bastard with daddy issues whose assholism anyone can see through. I don't remember Sawyer punching people just because they weren't listening to him.

But then he started out on the beach just the same as any of the other Lostaways and still decided to be the item hoarding, fight picking, misogynistic jackass that he is.

Ana-Lucia might be how she is because she's seen 16 other people (some kids) snatched into the jungle or killed over the last 40 days. Remember how she was in the airport? A complete world of difference.

Sawyer has redeeming qualities while AL doesn't.

Yet. We haven't seen the Tailaway episodes.
 
 
Spaniel
21:23 / 13.11.05
You know, Chad and Trip, I didn't even think to mention AL's backstory - it's just so bloody obvious that it's far too early to take issue with this character. Glad you guys went that route, though.

I think what needs to be understood here is that nobody is claiming disliking the AL character is a hallmark of a misogynist. The fact is, however, that strong female characters often come in for a lot of shit, and are often accused of being unbelievable, that, in association with some of the language being used in this thread, makes slagging her off an area for caution and self examination.
 
 
Krug
21:25 / 13.11.05
All right. We'll see. AL episodes are coming up soon.

I just rewatched the Cindy disappearance scene. If you look at the scene where they're climbing the ridge, someone moves quickly behind Mister Eko passing him. Don't know who it is but could it be one of the others or Cindy?
 
 
Spaniel
21:31 / 13.11.05
Oooh, as an English I had to download the latest episode. I'm gonna go pause it.
 
 
Spaniel
21:37 / 13.11.05
Blimey.

Small (very, very small) spoiler about the next episode ahead...











Apparently the next show focusses on the Tailaways' first 48 hours.










End tiny, tiny spoiler alert.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
21:47 / 13.11.05
I think the difference between Sawyer and Ana-Lucia is basically that while he is a self-centerted, attention-seeking, arrogant, racist, misogynist fuckface, Ana is a violent, intolerant, dangerous, thoughtless bully. Honestly, there's little difference between them; I feel a small modicum of sympathy for Sawyer and his backstory, but ultimately think he's a dick and if he died I'd only be sad because, while despicable, he's been well characterized. We have yet to get Ana's backstory, and as such, I feel about as negative towards her as I did to Sawyer at first. Yeah, her backstory may give us some reason to feel sympathetic towards her, but it doesn't excuse a lot of her behaviour IMO. For example, constantly yelling, hitting, and threatening the other characters instead of just fucking explaining why they should shut up and listen to her. She assumes authority and respect for her commands without earning it. That irritates me in a person.

I also think that there's been some pretty poor characterization in this show, and Ana-Lucia is potentially going to fall prey to the same dull or unconvincing backstory that Shannon, Boone, Kate, and Jack are victims of. I could ask for nothing more than Kate and Jack to die, and soon.

"I liked you better when you didn't talk"

I think that, like Locke, Eko was healed when he arrived on the island; he was mute before the crash, and took some time to begin speaking again.
 
 
Triplets
22:11 / 13.11.05
Ooh.
 
 
Spaniel
22:24 / 13.11.05
She assumes authority and respect for her commands without earning it.

Hey, Tom. How's dadhood?

We-ell, could it be that amongst her team she has earned it, and that she has little time for people that could get everyone that she has left killed? Also, didn't she do the most punching when she still had good reason to mistrust the Frontenders? Does she have a good reason to trust them now, or is she still understandably paranoid? Sure she's obnoxious, but does she have good reason to be? And even if she doesn't, is her behaviour understandable under the circumstances? Would other strong characters in her situation have responded in a much more *vigorous* fashion towards the Frontenders? These are all questions that are best answered when we know more about her.

Also, her reluctance to tell the Frontenders (sorry, my awful term) anything is surely a product of the creators' desire to withhold information. It doesn't make much sense, but it's to be expected.
 
 
Spaniel
22:24 / 13.11.05
Love the Eko theory.
 
 
Spaniel
22:31 / 13.11.05
Also, let's not forget that her treatment of Sawyer is almost certainly an attempt to create a little subtextual sexual frisson.
 
 
Spaniel
22:36 / 13.11.05
Oh, and what about the line that went something like "did you see the kids?". If you combine that with the teddy bear...

Fuel to the fire that the Others assimilate people?
 
 
X-Himy
23:47 / 13.11.05
I normally wouldn't go by the theory that Eko was originally a mute, because he strikes me as the silent type. However, the name Eko (Echo) suggests he had some sort of speech issue, and when first crashed on the island, and finding he could talk without any experience, just echoed other characters.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
00:57 / 14.11.05
I won't disagree that the anti-AL stuff in this thread devolves into some dubious territory. My problem with her seems to be different, though (her acting).

I second loving the Eko theory.

Benjamin posted a link to a massive spoiler involving the teddy bear a couple pages back. Next week should be quite interesting.
 
 
Spaniel
06:44 / 14.11.05
Won't be reading the spoiler.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
07:42 / 14.11.05
Sawyer's one of my favorite characters, and I think a key difference between his particular brand of obnoxious and Al's is that, well, his is funny and hers is just obnoxious. He's sarcastic in a way that she's not.

Also, she's a terrible leader. People disobey her right and left and it's generally the right decision (e.g. Mr Eko going with Jin to find Michael) and her orders seem fairly insecure- I think on some level she knows that she's not cut out to lead a group of people through a jungle, but can't really handle that and so she tries to exert an unreasonable level of control over the other tailaways (such as trying to keep them from talking to, being friendly with, and otherwise associating with Jin, Mike and Sawyer). She also held up a big, bright sign saying 'I'm A Bad Leader' when, after whats-her-face went missing, she turned to Eko and said, 'this is all your fault.' Yeah, okay, except that when he advised you to cut through the jungle, you disagreed but went ahead and did it. Either you can't get your own followers to do what you want them to, in which case you're a bad leader, or you decided not to disagree with Mr Eko and went into the jungle, in which case it's effectively your decision and therefore your fault, not Mr Eko's, to the extent that any blame can be assigned, and you are, therefore, a bad leader.

I would like to see how Al fared as a leader before. I wonder if she might have been capable in the context of the small group of survivors trying to eke out an existance under the collective nose of a group of people who wanted to kill them, but that she's not adaptable to changing circumstances.

You know, I'm actually much more interested in Al than I was half an hour ago. Go figure. She's still obnoxious though.
 
 
Spaniel
09:14 / 14.11.05
Hmm, not sure things are as black and white as good leader/bad leader, I'm not even sure things are as black and white as leader/follower. There's a failure of imagination going on here, a failure to address the reality of the characters' situation - a bunch of people, muddling through under very difficult circumstances - and an almost willful attempt to brush aside the fact that we know absolutely bugger all about these characters. Also, I should point out that what we do know about them is incomplete at best and misleading at worst.

The nature of Lost is staggered revelation - that's how it keeps us watching. Our knowledge of the characters' histories and of the island is necessarily incomplete, and kept constantly in flux. Sure we can make snap judgements but I think we would be doing the show a disservice to do so. Sawyer was initially presented as a shit bag, now we feel a little warmer towards him. Why? Because we've spent an entire series getting to know him.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:35 / 14.11.05
Sometimes when I read message board threads about television shows in which people complain endlessly about the annoyingness of abrasive characters, I wonder if they would really prefer watching shows in which there was never any interpersonal conflict at all whatsoever.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:48 / 14.11.05
Ana Lucia is clearly not meant to be likeable at this point - she's there to present a theme within the story, and to introduce some new conflicts. I definitely think she is meant to be seen as the "bad leader," at least in comparison to Jack and Locke. I imagine that over time, Ana Lucia will become a valuable asset to the group at large. But for right now, she's in over her head and overcompensating. I think that's pretty interesting.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
12:55 / 14.11.05
Hmm. Once again, I rashly throw around absolutes like 'good' and 'bad'; also it would probably benefit me not to write posts while I'm supposed to be doing other things (like, to take a random example, say, in class, being lectured to). I'll try to say things better this time around.

Hmm, not sure things are as black and white as good leader/bad leader, I'm not even sure things are as black and white as leader/follower.

True. What I was trying to get at in my roundabout way is that Al (seems to) be trying reeeally hard to be a strong no-nonsense leader (based on what little we've seen of her), but the introduction of Sawyer and co provide a new variable that seems to mess up the dynamic between her and the tailaways. The tailaways disobey her orders, Eko especially, as previously mentioned- more on him later, because he blurs the leader/follower line considerably- but also, she's not particularly happy with the others being friendly with Sawyer/Mike/Jin, and tries to bully them into stopping, as I recall. Anyhow, I suspect that this is something new based on her reaction to it, but it might not be the case.

and an almost willful attempt to brush aside the fact that we know absolutely bugger all about these characters.

Er, not really. My point was that, in the specific set of circumstances that we've seen, Al has made a number of ineffectual decisions despite trying reeeally hard, to all appearances, to be Teh Fearless Leader. I have no idea what circumstances were like before- as I said, I'd like to know. I'm also not passing judgment on this- my post did start out as a general explanation of what I don't like about Al, but by the end I realized that all of that actually makes her an interesting character and hints at a lot of stuff that I'd like to see explained later. I would love to know how she dealt with things before S/M/J arrived, and I'd love to know why she is trying so hard (because she is, at least as far as I can tell).

I was also thinking of her in contrast to Jack, at least Jack in the first part of season 1. He emerges as the leader of the castaways essentially by accident; he doesn't take command, people just do what he tells them to because it makes sense. It's only recently that he's gained the mentality of 'I'm the leader, do what I say' (I'm thinking specifically his relationship with Locke) which is the state which Al seems to be in right now, and he only has it in his relationship to certain people. She looks bad by comparison.

Hmm. More on Mr Eko in a later post, I guess- I for one cannot wait for his flashback episode.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
12:57 / 14.11.05
Ah- Flux beat me to the unflattering AL/Jack comparison.
 
 
Spaniel
13:39 / 14.11.05
Yeah, what Flux said - at this point she is supposed to be the "bad leader". It's obvious, really. I started trying to defend the character against knee jerk misogeny and ended up simply defending the character. Not an entirely wrong-headed thing to do, because I think most of the points I've made are pretty solid, but in the process I managed to ignore the salient fact that she is supposed to be a bringer of conflict.

Drama is about teh conflict.
 
 
gridley
13:48 / 14.11.05
Sometimes when I read message board threads about television shows in which people complain endlessly about the annoyingness of abrasive characters, I wonder if they would really prefer watching shows in which there was never any interpersonal conflict at all whatsoever.

I have no problem with abrasive characters and conflict. Sawyer was great for that first season.

My problem with Ana Lucia is that all of her conflict comes from them portaying her as her being irrational and socially retarded. I'm sure this week's episode will explain the paranoia, but I doubt it's going to be able to justify the irrational way she's behaving.
 
 
Spaniel
14:09 / 14.11.05
Um, let's get this straight, it will explain the paranoia but not the irrationality? Oh-kay.

Not meaning to put words into your mouth, but do you mean it won't explain away her bad behaviour? Well, maybe not entirely, but I would've thought that having been in a plane crash, being lost on a mysterious island, and being hunted by hostile natives - who have killed most of your fellow crash survivors - might, just might, put you in a bad mood.

And then a bunch of idiots turn up, all shouty and look-we're-over-here-come-and-get-us-nasty-baddies, and...

It's not rocket science.
 
 
Spaniel
14:10 / 14.11.05
You know, under significantly less stressful circumstances I'd be tempted to punch Sawyer in the face.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
14:40 / 14.11.05
Less stressful? Like him breathing near you? Because I'd love it if Lost got a spin-off show, "The Punch Sawyer in the Face Show" starring members of the public. That would be fun.

I wouldn't want to punch Ana-Lucia, but I'd love to kick her repeatedly in the shins.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:58 / 14.11.05
I'm sure this week's episode will explain the paranoia, but I doubt it's going to be able to justify the irrational way she's behaving.

WTF? I would think that her disposition in this extreme situation would be a fairly common response from a lot of people. Honestly, one of the things that initially put me off to the series was that more of the characters weren't FREAKING THE FUCK OUT. Her irrationality makes a hell of a lot of sense, especially given the extreme circumstances.
 
 
Spaniel
15:35 / 14.11.05
I wonder if they're going to give the bad leader thing a boost by having AL be the leader of the Tailaways right from the start. To have her shoulder the burden of her companions' deaths would be a nice way of making the character more sympathetic.
 
 
gridley
22:28 / 14.11.05
No, her behavior is solidly irrational.

Her plan is that they should avoid the Others at all costs and to never engage. That's fine. It seems like a good idea to me. But then she decides they should attack Sawyer, Jin, and Michael? Why? Four against three isn't the safest odds even if you aren't fighting the possibly superhuman people you're so terrified of.

Then, after she accepts that they aren't the Others (she lets them out of the prison anyway), she still treats them like enemies, refusing to tell them anything or answer questions? In what way does that help her cause? All it does is turn potential allies into enemies.

And then, even after she decides they should go meet up with the other tribe, she still refuses to treat their members in any way like allies? That's hardly going to make them trust you. If anything, it's just going to make them want to desert you and leave you lost in the jungle. Or worse make your group targets of their larger group. The only rational reason to behave that way was if she was planning to take some military action on the other castaways and steal their weapons, but I don't think that's what she's doing.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:03 / 14.11.05
Gridley, no one is trying to say that she's rational, only that her reaction is pretty normal for a person with insecurities who is FREAKING OUT in an extreme situation.
 
 
gridley
01:11 / 15.11.05
Well, I'm glad that it works for you, but I think it's just sloppy writing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:43 / 15.11.05
And is this the first time you've encountered that problem when watching this show?
 
  

Page: 1 ... 910111213(14)1516171819... 52

 
  
Add Your Reply