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The Ultimates 2

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08:31 / 30.05.05

"Cap" is such a nickname, and honestly reads as retro and out of place. Fury's forcing him into his heroic role, reinforced with "playful banter" to deflect him from any moral consideration of what he does everyday as Captain America.

Not to nit-pick because your reading makes some sense, but bear in mind that Captain America has always been called Cap by his super-chums. Pick up almost any comic featuring Captain America and you'll see him referred to as Cap throughout the book. Could it be that Millar is using the appellation unthinkingly, and, if that's the case, what other evidence do you have for Fury forcing Cap into a particular role?

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

15:34 / 30.05.05

Well, when he's not calling him "Cap," he's calling him "soldier boy," and the only real references to social and political change between the Forties and now that Fury makes are to tic-tacs. Tic-tacs.

Plus there's stuff like telling Cap he thought the France line was hilarious.

Okay, so maybe he's more pandering to Cap than anything, but...

Not surprisingly - or is it? - while I was trying to think of good examples, they could all easily fall into the "poorly written" category, a la the France line's hideous "See? See? I was being funny!"

10:32 / 31.05.05

As I say, as a reading I like it. Who cares about Millar's intentions or whether he's actually smart enough to be doing it deliberately - it works pretty much regardless (at this point).

16:46 / 31.05.05

I think we're all being a bit unfair*; this book's been really tightly plotted thus far (we'll see when it comes to traitor-revealin' time, obvs., if that still holds up) and well compelling. That's why you're reading innit? Vol. 2 is the dog's dick.

*Probably just because Sparky does a fair impersonation of a flapping head on the 'net, quite often.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

19:22 / 31.05.05

Well, one school of thought is that a good writer can salvage poor writing and do something with it - ie using "Cap."

Mostly I'm just bitchy because I want to have more Thor action...

20:22 / 31.05.05

Understandably.

15:45 / 01.06.05

After re-reading issue one, I'm convinced Tony is the traitor. In his interview with Larry King, he says he'd never stand by if the Ultimates were used as an invasion force.

It's probably going to come down to the core Avengers/Ultimates (Tony, Hank, Bruce, Cap & Jan) vs. Nick Fury and new supersoldiers.

Essential Dazzler

16:06 / 01.06.05

I'm also going with Tony.

In the Vol. 1 commentary, Hitch mentions a scene in issue 2 with Tony and Nick that preempts something major in Vol 2.

It isn't the only thing that's said, but I noticed Tony's philanthropic reasons for Joining the Ultimates. With what Gridley just pointed out it's a reasonable case.

The Natural Way

16:29 / 01.06.05

Yes but, but but, do you really think Thor would be "surprised" that it was Tomy. Remember what Loki said....

16:43 / 01.06.05

It's gotta be cap.

first he openly blames thor, the most obvious target to deflect attention. Then he links up with hank pym, someone he can publicly threaten and humiliate without question. He can use everyone's assumption that "cap's just being a dick" to distract them all.

that "oh hank" line dosen't seem to fit though.

10:50 / 05.06.05

it might be bruce 'girly wrists' banner. who else would be so worried about leaving prints?

i thought this was the best issue of the vol so far, because there was a weird lack of punch in the last one. great not to have all the arseholes barking at each other for a change, millar's light touch hasn't turned in a knob gag that good for quite a while.

14:18 / 06.06.05

I was playing with the idea of it being Bruce himself for a while, but the panel of him finding out his identity had been leaked to the media was too convinving. He look completely flabbergasted.

14:50 / 06.06.05

What I want to know is: If Hawkeye was just an Olympic level archer in the first few issues, how come he turns into a guy that wears Army dress uniforms when he meets the European supersoldiers? Is he really just an athlete? Was he promoted to station after his Ultimate training?

I wouldn't doubt the next arc will be Fury edging out Stark. They've remade the Giant Men, and now they've an Iron Maiden with Natasha. No sense in getting a filthy rich liberal to muck things up.

I'm hoping for a West Coast team soon.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

14:53 / 06.06.05

I reread them and made note that they refer to Hawkeye being a soldier as well, but I get the feeling that this was added to his character as an afterthought when they realized he needed a backstory. I think he was in the Gulf War with Fury, actually; they certainly interact like old war buddies.

Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER

08:43 / 07.06.05

Hm. Didn't Fury mention falsifying Hawkeye and Black Widow's backgrounds in the Homeland Security arc? That'd certainly explain the sudden penchant for military uniforms...

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

10:29 / 07.06.05

"Olympic-level" dosen't necessarily mean someone who is in the Olympics. How often is normal MU Cap or Daredevil described as an "olympic-level athlete"? A lot. Especially in the old Handbooks to the MU. I always figured the public beackgrounds for Hawkeye and BW just made him something other than a career soldier and made BW something other than a Soviet Super Soldier/Spy.

10:47 / 07.06.05

Only in the Comics forum, kids.

I think it's been made pretty clear that Hawkeye is some kind of hardcore military man.

10:52 / 07.06.05

Yeah, wasn't there a line where Hawkeye said something to Fury about remembering when Shield was "you and me and a drinks tab keeping track of the USSR".

19:16 / 18.07.05

#7 out this Wed. - the traitor revealed?

19:44 / 18.07.05

Shall we place bets?

I got $5/US on Hawkeye.

19:53 / 18.07.05

I've got 5 dong on Stark.

Essential Dazzler

09:12 / 19.07.05

I've got £10 on the first reveal being a Loki trick, I doubt we'll find out proper till #11/12

21:47 / 19.07.05

I've heard talk that the Captain America outfit in the background of the last issue is a skilful bit of misdirection. Hank drew the line at dressing up like Cap, and it's actually Captain America betraying his country.

"This isn't a nation I believe in anymore"

It would be classic Millar to have Captain America (of all people) saying America's current activities were Unamerican.

So

Vote for Cap all the way.

22:16 / 19.07.05

Flunchy, that metal pinging sound was my jaw dropping.

(I was in an accident)

10:56 / 20.07.05

It's Cap, it's got to be Cap. Fury has demonstrated in his appearances throughout the Ultimate-verse that he has no problem locking people up without trial for "the common good". I can't see him getting pissed at the US government when most of the policies are one's he put in place.

Where as Cap has, from his perspective, gone from fighting the good fight against evil Nazi rats to a world where his own country merrily dispatches giant robots in genocidal campaigns against it's own people, and brews up superhuman soldiers who go nuts and kill thousands.

The Ultimate Steve Rogers seems to be pretty conservative in his politics and attitudes. But attitudes back in the war years were pretty conservative when viewed through a post-millenium cultural lens. He's obviously a patriot, but it's equally obvious he's not the kind of patriot who blindly follows where his President leads.

Whilst Tony would make a more obvious choice, he is currently engaged to a KGB-trained, SHIELD black ops enhancile which I would have thought would limit his conspiracy-fu.

I like the idea of the Ultimates busting Thor out and going independant (financed by Stark). Ultimate War 2 anyone?

04:17 / 21.07.05

#7 is the shit!

that was such a great hawkeye moment, and the scene with tony and thor was pretty creepy. thor sounds so crazy, but of course you believe him!

the additional cap asshole moment locks it. he's gotta be the traitor, because it sure ain't hawkeye.

06:14 / 21.07.05

If it's Cap, it's a Skrull-Cap. I actually suspect Black Window, as the "soldier" line is way too obvious, as is the cap suit on Pym's bed from his tryst with wossername thor-groupie.

Essential Dazzler

11:43 / 21.07.05

Woah. Scratch the "Traitor in the right against morally questionable team of super-human US smart-bombs". The traitor is a cunt. After 18 pages of light filler, that came as quite a shock.

12:19 / 21.07.05

Can't be Cap. I don't care what the storyline and details are, or what kind of jerk Ultimate Cap is. There is no way any Captain America would ever do what the traitor did to Callum. In the back? No way.

12:30 / 21.07.05

All this speculation is beginning to grate. Look, guys, there's no such thing as an iron-clad theory. Millar will do whatever Millar wants and he'll find a justification to suit his purposes. That's how Millar writes.

12:41 / 21.07.05

I echo Quimper. Cap wouldn't do that, even Ultimate Cap.

13:21 / 21.07.05

Here's where I piss off Boboss.

Yeah, I can't see Cap doing this, even if he is a big shit.

UNLESS, Cap is trying to get Hawkeye and Hawkwife away to safety.

13:21 / 21.07.05

Spoilers above, obv.

rabideyemovement

15:03 / 21.07.05

I'm pretty sure that the traitor will be Cap. He can't be too impressed with the changes in his country, and the stroyline is name "Grand Theft America"... I guess this is where they'll break away, and Tony will fund a new team out of an old brownstone mansion. Maybe we could get a cool USAgent out of it all.

19:07 / 21.07.05

I agree that there's no way that cap could be the gunman at the end of #7. but as long as we're wildly speculating, who says that the gunman was the traitor? thor tells tony that their enemies are preparing to move against them, could perhaps the ultimates have more than one problem?

the "soldier" line makes me think that fury pulled the trigger. not sure what the hell his motive would be, though. perhaps acting as a traitor as a feint in a larger powergrab.

what's the concensus on jan? it seems that she's gagging to get roughed up by naughty-hank.

and damn, that last scene was so brutal, and even as a violence fan, i'm glad hitch put most of the blood and brains off-panel. it's a tasteful slaughter.

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