BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

Page: 1 ... 3435363738(39)4041424344... 83

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:18 / 13.02.07
Really, the question could be expanded to fit a wide variety of situations, it's just that "under attack" involves a fairly quantatative bit of data (the identity of the attacker) which would make results simpler to determine.

Mmm... I'm still not sure it always matters. I mean, if you're having a run of bad luck or general negativity, there are a lot of spells that will do very nicely whether the threat is coming from within or without. Even if you're not being actively attacked by someone external and what you're dealing with is in fact ick from the deep mind, the experience can be much the same. So can the workable solutions. The existance and identity of the culprit only really becomes an issue if you want to fuck 'em up (not saying that isn't sometimes a valid response, mind).
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
13:14 / 13.02.07
Another stupid question, inspired by the last one.

Is there such a thing as a condition of being "impervious" to magic(k)? I.e., not only being unable to use magic(k) in any way oneself, but also being incapable of being affected by it, either for harm or for healing?

(I appreciate the answer may well depend on whether you see magic(k) as "external" to human beings, or deriving from the human mind (or the condition of having "mind"), but i'm not sure which of those i believe, or even whether i believe magic(k) exists at all, so all perspetives welcome...)

I know there are some things, such as hypnotherapy, that aren't supposed to be able to work on anyone who doesn't accept/"believe in" them...
 
 
illmatic
13:56 / 13.02.07
i.e., not only being unable to use magic(k) in any way oneself, but also being incapable of being affected by it, either for harm or for healing?

Um, the way your question is asked kind of implies that magick is a real force in the world that one is "immune" to or not - bit like an immunity to the effect of certain diseases or drugs, almost as if it's a natural effect of one's physiology. I'd rather situate any resistance to magic as a a more subjective thing - i.e. an ingrained disbelief or cynicism. I imagine you'd have a hell of a job convincing someone like James Randi of any magic taking place even if you'd summoned up a goetic demon into his kitchen.

In short, I think a lot of magick rests on our acceptance and recognition of it, and the practice of magick in a lot of ways creates spaces and a mindset where that it's likely to happen. I don't think that's all there is to it though, but I'd have problems drawing a definite line.
 
 
illmatic
14:11 / 13.02.07
bit like an immunity to the effect of certain diseases or drugs

Meant to add - diseases and drugs are clearly affected by the placebo effect. Magic seems to lurk in the same uncertain territory to me.

Personally, I've met some people who were always convinced their magick works and they had TEH POWERZ. They always seemed a little unbalanced to me, in refusing to acknowledge their subjectivity and the role it was playing in creating their beliefs and perceptions. Similarly, people who deny that there's ever anything a bit odd happening, and that it's all apophenia< (my new favourite word) - people like this seem a overly rigid to me. The truth is in the middle somewhere.
 
 
Feverfew
16:37 / 13.02.07
It's also my new favourite word now - I hope you don't mind.
 
 
Ticker
18:18 / 13.02.07
I like saying it 'apoo-fenia'. Is that wrong of me? Ethically I mean.
 
 
Feverfew
18:24 / 13.02.07
Ethically some might say it's dubious; but what about the moral standpoint?
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:49 / 13.02.07
Should my drum be randomly klicking at me? Its made of alloy, no where near a heat source, kinda reminds me of a kettle clicking, do other peoples drums click, do these random clicks have a rhythm of there own (see above)?
 
 
grant
19:33 / 13.02.07
Does it have a skin head?
 
 
electric monk
20:01 / 13.02.07
"Please make sure that when a spirit or God presents himself, do a banishing pentagram and shoot it towards the spirit, ALWAYS, this way if he is not a God or a true spirit guide they will go away."

So says a friend of mine, regarding invoking spirits, gods, and other beasties. I've never used this particular tool, reasoning that a protective circle should be enough to keep out what I don't want around while giving entrance to what I do want around. I've seen this recommendation made elsewhere (not here), but it seems rooted in the old "one word of the incantation misspoken and the devil comes to drag you down to hell" cliche.

Anyone here using the banishing pentagram in this way? Why or why not?
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:35 / 14.02.07
Yes it does, could it be contracting and expanding? what would make it do that, the heat of sunshine? Could it be tension on the surface of the skin, it could just be that.
 
 
grant
17:50 / 14.02.07
Yep, it could be that. Whether that means anything more, I have no way of knowing. But yes, both skin and metal expand and contract with the temperature, and in different ways.
 
 
Internaut
17:57 / 14.02.07
What exactly does performing a banishing encompass?
 
 
EmberLeo
18:22 / 14.02.07
I think they're referring not to the general concept of banishing, but to the specific way of drawing a 5 pointed star such that it is a "banishing pentagram". It's not my style of magic, but I *believe* a Banishing Pentagram is drawn from the bottom left corner, to the top point, and so on.

--Ember--
 
 
electric monk
18:42 / 14.02.07
The way I learned it, the Invoking pentagram is drawn clockwise, starting and ending on the relevant point. The Banishing pentagram is drawn counterclockwise. Lower-left tip is, I think, Earth. I use the Spirit Pentagrams (which starts at the top point, natch) in my LBRP and would probably use them as the god-scanner as well, were I to do such a thing.

~ k e i r, are you asking for clarification of my question or is yours a seperate question? I can see it being read as both, and am confuzled.
 
 
Internaut
18:54 / 14.02.07
i probably could've worded it better. i was wondering about other types of banishing rituals. i was already aware of the LBRP, and i was curious to see if there were any more.
 
 
EvskiG
18:55 / 14.02.07
"Please make sure that when a spirit or God presents himself, do a banishing pentagram and shoot it towards the spirit, ALWAYS, this way if he is not a God or a true spirit guide they will go away."

Anyone here using the banishing pentagram in this way? Why or why not?


I sometimes use something similar as a quick way of dispelling anxieties or obsessions.

The process is as follows:

(1) Identify the fact that I'm anxious or obsessing about something,

(2) Visualize the subject of my thoughts as an entity, and

(3) With a snap, send a small, bright blue glowing pentagram whirling from my right hand to the manifestation, dispelling it.

(A three-second banishing ritual.)

For more general protection, on rare occasions I visualize a bright blue glowing sphere with four pentagrams in the cardinal directions (in other words, a 3D version of the circle you draw in the LBRP) rapidly expanding from my solar plexus and surrounding me.

(This is a one-second ritual.)

Tends to work fairly well for me.

But I've never heard of using something similar to test whether an entity is a "true" spirit. No dumber than asking it to spell its name in Hebrew.

Of course, I'm skeptical of any technique that ALWAYS works.
 
 
electric monk
19:42 / 14.02.07
As am I. This person's only trying to help me, really, so I don't fault hir for the advice ze gives. But's ze's well into hir trad, so advice comes with a lot of ALWAYS and MUST and SAY THESE WORDS. Sometimes, I agree with hir. Sometimes, not so much. This extra banishing was recommended because ze has had "mishaps with false Gods", and didn't want me to fall into the same traps. Um, yeah.

Thanks, Ev.

------

~ k e i r, Phil Hine's article, An Introduction to Banishing Rituals, may interest you.

Here and here is what Wiccans do.

Chaote banishings seem to follow the form of LBRP while swapping out the symbolism, surprise surprise. I used to use a variation of the Gnostic Thunderbolt.

That should getcha started.
 
 
Internaut
20:41 / 14.02.07
thanks, that helps a lot.
 
 
EmberLeo
02:26 / 15.02.07
i was wondering about other types of banishing rituals.

I admit to actually not quite understanding what's being Banished by the LBRP. I'm not a ceremonialist, I admit. It's not my context or style at all. But on a surface level, I'm not unfamiliar with the rituals (That is, I've seen 'em performed, have more than one variation on scripts, etc.)

So, I understand the concept of banishing in a general sense, and I've helped with the odd ... well, exorcism, technically (getting rid of an unwanted possessing entity).

But what, *specifically* does Banishing mean in this context?

--Ember--
 
 
electric monk
12:11 / 15.02.07
"Banishing" is somewhat of a misnomer in the ritual sense. Somewhat. One objective of a banishing is to clear the atmosphere around the magician, shooing away whatever negative elements are hanging around and sancifiying the working space. The other objective is the sanctification of the magician, a centering of the magician's focus on the task at hand, and the magician placing hirself in the center of hir magical universe, equidistant from the elemental influences, drawing on and giving to them all. So the LBRP (or whatever) could be thought of as a "Centering" ritual as well.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:37 / 15.02.07
Massage works well, as does clapping around oneself and on ones body, so does a martial arts set if performed with intent in say four directions. casting a circle with holy water, sprinkling water in directions, washing the self clean with baths, thats the element i find missing from most modern ritual, water, very important and symbolic function.

Watching the breath, the word banishing does imply that whole ceremonial gizmo (which i use) but there are so many other ways to ground oneself in there intentions.

Clicking the fingers, dancing, saying certain charged words, the varieties are endless. Banishing has many connotations with purification in my mind as well.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:01 / 15.02.07
"Please make sure that when a spirit or God presents himself, do a banishing pentagram and shoot it towards the spirit, ALWAYS, this way if he is not a God or a true spirit guide they will go away."

Fuck it. I deliberately locked myself out of barbelith awhile back in abject frustration, but have requested my password back to specifically address this madness.

I think that is a fairly bizarre idea, if you ask me. A bit indicative of the ceremonial tradition's fucking backwards, medieval level of sophistication in it's interaction with deity. It's like inviting somebody into your house for dinner, then getting right up in their face and telling them to fuck off, in order to ascertain whether they are really your mate or not.

If you were to prepare an altar service for a deity, and then the first thing that you did when you got them fully present was to then try and banish them, it's not exactly the best starting point for a constructive conversation is it? A God (or anybody else) is not going to feel very welcome or be too impressed by someone calling on them, and then doubting their identity and motivations to the extent that you try and banish them, just to see whether they have the clout to remain present after your attempt to turf them out. How fucking maladjusted is that?

If in doubt about something - think about it in human terms. A lot of deities have very human-type personalities and respond to slights and disrespect in much the same way as a person might. It's always worth making sure that you are treating your visiting God or Spirit with the same kind of courtesy and civility that you might give to a powerful and important human being with whom you are trying to establish a healthy relationship. If a deity comes expecting food and drink, candles and music, dancing and drumming and a celebration in their honour - as is the norm in virtually all non-ceremonial traditions - and the first thing they get is a big astral fuck off in the face, how do you expect the dialogue is likely to go from there?

This whole idea that you might get evil spirits impersonating the deity you are trying to contact is a bit weird and paranoid in the first place. If you dress an altar with the colours and signifiers of a deity, prepare the offerings that they like, and call to them by name - I see no reason to assume there is a risk that you might get some interloper on the other end of the line after you have dialed the right number. If, for whatever reason, you seriously doubt your ability to use the interdimensional telephone - go through a reliable operator. A lot of pantheons tend to have a Messenger deity who has the job of ferrying communication between humans and the rest of the pantheon. Sort out a relationship with the Messenger first, then all subsequent interactions take place under their auspices. Get that part of it sorted out and the problem disappears, if it was ever there in the first place, which is arguable to say the least.
 
 
electric monk
13:32 / 15.02.07
I appreciate you going through the time and trouble to address this.
 
 
EvskiG
13:38 / 15.02.07
I think that is a fairly bizarre idea, if you ask me. A bit indicative of the ceremonial tradition's fucking backwards, medieval level of sophistication in it's interaction with deity.

I don't think it's actually indicative of the ceremonial tradition. While it is common to test an entity's legitimacy while astrally journeying (for example, by asking it for its name, its characteristics, etc. and trying to match them to the classical correspondences), I've never heard of whipping a pentacle at a spirit after a successful invocation.

And, of course, the way one acts toward a given invoked deity isn't necessarily the way one would act toward a "lower" spirit or servitor (elemental, demon, Goetic spirit, etc.).

If you're into that sort of thing, which I'm not.
 
 
Ticker
13:41 / 15.02.07
This whole idea that you might get evil spirits impersonating the deity you are trying to contact is a bit weird and paranoid in the first place.

while in many ways I agree, yet on one hand there is the issue of human self delusion. In this case it is less about challenging the Deity and more in line with what Ev G is saying about taking stock of your own wish fufillment and assorted baggage. This is why community support is so vital to help with bullshit detection.

On the other hand if you the human haven't done your research and/or haven't done your preperation there are Entities that are more than happy to call you on your shit. An analogy would be trying to call a celebrity not doing shit to establish a relationship with them or get the right number and getting a smart ass bodyguard on the line who thinks it's quite funny and giving you shit.

There are some Fortean phenomenon falling into two major categories that may document the daemonic. The minding-your-own-business-and-weirdness-showed-up variety and the poking-about-for-the-fuck-of-it variety occassional held up as a fall out of stupid occult dabbling. This is the stuff of cautionary tales.

In this second case it is highly probably that by not doing due diligence and approaching the Divine with an arrogant 'entertain me attitude' the human involved is being educated by a Trickster element of a pantheon or by the Deity directly.

Rather than place the blame for miscommunication on the other end of the line, we as practitioners need to be educated enough to set up proper lines of communication with clear intent. We need to be familiar with the traditions or request aid from others who are to ensure we're not hand waving ourselves through the process and getting a smackdown to wake our asses up.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:32 / 15.02.07
I don't think it's actually indicative of the ceremonial tradition. While it is common to test an entity's legitimacy while astrally journeying (for example, by asking it for its name, its characteristics, etc. and trying to match them to the classical correspondences), I've never heard of whipping a pentacle at a spirit after a successful invocation.

I probably phrased that badly. I've never come across the idea of "banishing something once it has been invoked to see if it is a true deity" in ceremonial magic either myself. What I was getting at is that the ceremonial tradition tends to be the default operating system that people draw from when trying to contact and establish relationships with deities. And this mechanism - largely developed by Victorian-era magicians and based on earlier sources like the goetia and various other grimoires - is perhaps not the ideal model for interacting with every form of spirit, invisible intelligence or deity.

I don't have any problems with ceremonial magic operating within its own parameters, but when you get the tools of ceremonial magic taken out of their original context and posited as the one true and safe way of interacting with all Gods and Spirits, then I think you start to run into problems. You get situations where people take a bit of ceremonial - such as the LBRP - and then apply it to places where it's neither necessary or particularly helpful, as per the example we are talking about. If you were to pick up any random contemporary book on magic, you would likely get the impression that the LBRP is some crucial, universal, all important thing that you have to include in what you are doing or else you are in for trouble - but we are talking about a ritual that is less than 200 years old.

So perhaps more accurately put, what I was getting at is that the above example is indicative of the kind hegemony that ceremonial magic exerts on contemporary western magic. We end up with a situation where people are drawing on techniques originally derived from medieval grimoires for conjuring demons - and then unquestioningly applying these methods to interaction with anything from Classical divinities, to Hindu Gods to African Powers to Norse deities - without really questioning where this operating system and these ideas have come from or giving any thought to their legitimacy in a given situation.

You end up with a backwards and unsophisticated approach to this work because its like using the instruction manual from a PC as your guide to understanding a Mac (or a washing machine, or a toaster), and valuing the truth of the words printed in this handbook over your own intuitive, personal experiences of what you are interacting with. You can't really get magic out of a cookbook, but I think a lot of modern magic tries to, especially when it comes to spirit and deity work. This cookbook might be useful if you are trying to work specifically within the closed parameters of Goetia, or Golden Dawn magic, or Crowley's magick, or whatever. But if you are taking isolated bits of the ceremonial method out of their original context and then applying them to other things as if they are universal principles, you end up with skewed perspectives like that of Monk's friend being posited as absolutes.

Mr Crowley on the LBRP: “Those who regard this ritual as a mere device to invoke or banish spirits are unworthy to possess it.”
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:59 / 15.02.07
Why i bring up purification in relation to banishing is because i think it is just that in reality, creating a space so that you ensure communication and interaction with the entity you wish to speak with. In order to do that you banish or bring into accord other spirits in that space, effectively creating resonance or purity within yourself and the space you are in, another element i am coming to understand is how time flows in that space is very important, the movement and sense of perception also helps to purify or banish elements that may not be in accord with the deity being invoked. The way i understand purity, is like making sure the ground is correct to grow a plant in, so tipping water onto the ground to make it fertile for example, yet also has the connotation of washing away unwanted forces.

So for example i encircle myself with Anubis (and aspects there of) to bring that contact, I am making sure its Anubis that watches over preceding's and guides them, i use that method of invocation along with visualization and posture to embody Anubis, before i begin working with other elements, those mostly being about embodying Anubis and his principalities.
 
 
Quantum
17:08 / 15.02.07
This whole idea that you might get evil spirits impersonating the deity you are trying to contact is a bit weird and paranoid in the first place

It reminds me of the fear of ouija boards, and Dion Fortune's Psychic Self-defence. I'm not saying malevolent entities don't ever deceive people or cause trouble, but there does seem to be a lot of occult preoccupation with it. It's akin to the saying I've come across that paranoia is egomania turned inside out- it assumes there are people or entities out there who are obsessed with trying to get into your magical pants, when in fact I suspect most people (and other entities) are concerned mostly with their own agenda and couldn't give two shits about you unless you poke them first.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:26 / 15.02.07
2hrb--thanks for that, I'd been meaning to get onto it but wasn't sure where to even start.
 
 
Z. deScathach
08:03 / 16.02.07
Two-headed Rude Boy wrote:

We end up with a situation where people are drawing on techniques originally derived from medieval grimoires for conjuring demons - and then unquestioningly applying these methods to interaction with anything from Classical divinities, to Hindu Gods to African Powers to Norse deities - without really questioning where this operating system and these ideas have come from or giving any thought to their legitimacy in a given situation.


Exactly! While it's been awhile since I've done work with deities, as a student of tantra, I can't imagine what would occur if I hurled a pentacle at a hindu deity. Hindu deities expect a lot of devotional work. It's all about deepening the relationship. Such an action would be the same as saying repeatedly, "I really want to know you, I really want to know you, I really want....", and when they finally show up throwing a mud clod in their face.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:44 / 16.02.07
Yeah, it's the same with the deities I work with myself. Interacting with them is about developing a really deep personal relationship, and this is something that just doesn't seem to be very strongly grasped by a lot of people involved in magic. You could arguably tie this into the "love and magic" thread by speculating that it's a trust issue. A lot of people seem to be a bit squeamish about opening up to a deity in this way, openly giving something of yourself, opening your heart in devotion.

I think there is often a chronic standoffishness and cynicism about how some Magicians seem to approach deity, like you have to surround yourself with all of these pentacles and words of power and geometric symbols that almost seem to be like the magical equivalent of Reichian character armour - an extra layer of defensive tissue that you are placing between you and the experience that you are presumably trying to have by calling on deity in the first place. A lot of it is probably rooted in the perceived western dichotomy between magic and religion, to some extent. It's probably pertinent that the traditions that encourage this kind of openness to deity - of which Tantra and Voodoo are obvious examples - are ones in which magic and religion go hand-in-hand and are not considered to be opposing occupations.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:54 / 16.02.07
Yeah, I'm not happy with the idea that HCM or any other system can offer a one-size-fits-all framework, and you can just plug in any old Gods you fancy without worrying about Their natures, personalities or backgrouds. This comes up a lot, and it's something that increasingly sticks in my craw. Sure, there may be some families of deities that groove into a similar approach but there is no single perfect system, no metamagic that's so pristine and complete that any pantheon can be added in as window-dressing. That way shite like Falcon Feather, Valkyrie Sword lies.

As to the pentagram-flinger described above... like I say, I don't know where to start with that. There's the outright offensiveness of calling Someone over only to hurl banishing spells at Hir, as has been remarked upon at length upthread. Then there's the assumption that Darque Spirits are always going to be hanging around and trying to fuck with you for kicks. Not saying that there are no nasties hovering around who'd be very happy to stroll in and take advantage, but if you cleanse your ritual space and sort things out so as to attract the Guys you do want it should be less of a problem. That said spiits will be able to successfully masquerade as Gods or other powers is also an odd thing to assume. Whilst this does occasionally happen, it's pretty rare; for one thing, pretending to be a God is not a healthy passtime. Eventually, the real McCoy is going to become aware of what's happening and take issue. Far more likely is for the magician to convince hirself that ze's made contact with a deity, when what's really happening is that ze's set up a cozy little sock-puppet theatre in the confines of hir own head. It's not unknown for the socks to turn on ya, if you have issues.

And then there's the assumption that this pentagram banishing is going to work for everything--that every little nasty that might try and horn in on your working will recognise and respond to that specific rite. They won't. There's no one thing that will guarantee you protection every time and under all circumstances. When I talk about my direct-contact spirit-work, I've several times had people earnestly tell me that I should be asking everyone "are you Of The Light?" before pursuing the dialogue. Load of nonsense. For one thing, what the heck does "Are you of the light?" mean in respect of a Death Goddess or a Chaos God? And for another thing... what, the nasties can't lie? "Of the light? Nah, actually I'm a Scrofula Demon--oh bugger."
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:55 / 16.02.07
Oops, x-post. Should've hit refresh.
 
 
Ticker
12:30 / 16.02.07
I think there is often a chronic standoffishness and cynicism about how some Magicians seem to approach deity, like you have to surround yourself with all of these pentacles and words of power and geometric symbols that almost seem to be like the magical equivalent of Reichian character armour - an extra layer of defensive tissue that you are placing between you and the experience that you are presumably trying to have by calling on deity in the first place. A lot of it is probably rooted in the perceived western dichotomy between magic and religion, to some extent. It's probably pertinent that the traditions that encourage this kind of openness to deity - of which Tantra and Voodoo are obvious examples - are ones in which magic and religion go hand-in-hand and are not considered to be opposing occupations.

There's a power dynamic at issue here that can be explored by looking at who is comfortable calling themselves a priest or worshiper and who is only comfortable being called a magician. I would suspect that western dichotomy THRB mentions is also centered around the inherited power dynamic of Christianity resonating down through the traditions of relating to a Deity. The issue of power dynamic has come up a bit in the magical BDSM thread and the possession thread. It seems to be problematic for some people to navigate what their relationship with the Divine is. Occasionally it reads like the fear of losing sovereignty of the self, as if in offering love and devotion the magician runs the risk of losing clarity and control.

Personally I'm not comfortable with the label magician at all (nor a bunch of other ones) because I'm practicing my religion and what I'm doing magically is just a function of that. I cook and fix the toilet but I'm not a chef or a plumber and I'm not doing magic as my sole career in life either. Yet I'm not defining who am by my religion either, true it's a massive part of my life but it's not the entirety. At the end of the day (or a very long night) I'm a whole string of things that lend me strength and in love with a good handful of beings and Beings with that love to sustain me.
 
  

Page: 1 ... 3435363738(39)4041424344... 83

 
  
Add Your Reply