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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:17 / 02.02.07
Would a thread on Thor be an interesting thing to have? YOu know, like we've got threads on Hela and Odin?
 
 
Princess
17:38 / 02.02.07
Well I'd be interested. Not sure I'd have a lot to contribute, but I'd be interested.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:08 / 02.02.07
Has anybody done any therapeutic work with drum circles or just drumming in general, I am getting some odd experiences the day after having drummed for about 6 hours pretty non stop, mostly hand percussion.

Things like, i seem to be more attractive to people, emotional roller coaster rides as well, breaking down in tears etc, spontaneous rage, alot of guttural emotional release. Lots of sighing the next day, giant yawns, a general kind of relaxed feeling and a sense of vulnerability, but safe secure vulnerability if that makes any sense.

Its inspired me to learn darabuka/doumbek because i like the tones, using a set of bongos at the moment but will probably move on in time to all other sorts of percussion.

What are peoples experiences of drumming circles? I have been looking into the literature in the area, mostly related into organizing them, my experiences so far, although painful in places are pretty good. I feel more like myself.

A weird physical effect has been needing to pooh alot about an hour after i cease drumming, swollen stomach as well, alot of gas, perhaps thats the sitting position i am in for that length of time, who knows.
 
 
illmatic
23:38 / 02.02.07
I don't drum myself but a lot of the effects you describe are similar to those I've encountered in working with character armour. Perhaps the physicality and the involvement of drumming hits you in this way?
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:23 / 03.02.07
The Healing Power of the Drum: A Psychotherapist Explores the Healing Power of Rhythm (Performance in World Music Series)

Going to get a copy of the above at some point, and see if it details how the rhythms and tones may well be effecting the body, i have heard that drummers can get kidney problems, but not alot else.

Drum therapy

The above offers alot more food for thought.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:29 / 03.02.07
I particularly like the finishing paragraphs. (which follow)

Each person in a drum circle is expressing themselves through his or her drum and listening to the other drums at the same time. “Everyone is speaking, everyone is heard, and each person’s sound is an essential part of the whole.” Each person can drum out their feelings without saying a word, without having to reveal their issues. Group drumming complements traditional talk therapy methods. It provides a means of exploring and developing the inner self. It serves as a vehicle for personal transformation, consciousness expansion, and community building. The primitive drumming circle is emerging as a significant therapeutic tool in the modern technological age.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:01 / 03.02.07
Another quick physiological effect i just noticed after playing for 15 mins on my first drum, arrived today, dilated pupils.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:09 / 03.02.07
I've actually been doing a bit of work that combines a osrt of bastardised version of Reichian breathwork with drumming--sort of arose spontaneously one day. I got some of the same symptoms. It scared the fuck out of me in the way that neither technique alone ever has, so I'm planning to pursue it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:54 / 03.02.07
What side of the breath work, hyperventilation or slow deep breathes? This appeals as well Ecstatic Trance: New Ritual Body Postures a Workbook

Combine the breathing, drumming and postures that allow a drum to be played and you have a kind of physiological animistic work out for attaining altered states. (not that that is anything new)

Somebody else mentioned this, the author of the above title up thread, could they comment at all on how the postures work, are they static? moving? do you allow the body to shift and alter to find center as you do in well taught martial arts and meditation, or is it a case of creating hormone releases through stiff postures that the body then tries to cure with nice chemical cocktails.

Another good book if you dont mind all the sub text i read recently was Robert Lomas Turning the hiram key, he looks at the science behind ritual, physiological effects of posture, how the brain responds, similarity to sexual states, very indepth descriptions and convincing evidence. 2nd part of the book.

He also puts forth the theory that Free masonry embodies as a part of its structure, a central part, the worship of freya, chapter 12 , the puzzle of the kirkwell scroll.

Its not a bad book for thelemites/G.D as well describes some of the mystical precepts of masonry and allowed me to see exactly how they have entered those systems. (although very transformed)
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
12:12 / 03.02.07
not sober enough to respond appropriately, but: thanks, mordant and grant and stuff.

also, mordant: I'd read it. Get morrison to write and mignola to illustrate...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:40 / 03.02.07
Sam: I've been combining drumming with four-fold breath (in -two-three-four, hold-two-three-four, out-two-three-four, hold-two-three-four) and finding that if I get into it, I seem to automatically slip into the Reichian-based breathing. Sort of a whole-body breath, almost: on the in breath my belly and chest come up and out, head, shoulders, and hips fall back. On the out breath my shoulders and hips roll natuarlly forward as my belly and chest sink.

I started out doing the breathing lying on the bed with my knees flexed and my arms at my sides. When I got used to it I switched to sitting up in a chair. I guess you could do drumming either way but sitting up is easier.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:06 / 04.02.07
I wonder if anyone out there can help me with another dream. I had this weeks ago but I haven't been able to make a lot of sense of it. It was one of those loud pingy dreams where you're sure it was Very Important.

In the dream I'm soon to be married, to another woman. Everyone is very happy for me, but my mother is rather critical of my bride's hair and insists on giving me a bottle of special shampoo for her to use so it'll look right on the big day. She also doesn't like the wedding-dress I've picked out and insists that I wear one of her six wedding dress which she has been keeping in storage against this very day. I choose a dress which has a decoration of large mother-of-pearl flowers, which I'm told were carved out of oyster shells. (NB--the woman who's my mother in the dream is not actually anything like my mother in real life.)

I don't get this at all. Why the hair-washing? Why the six wedding dresses? Why the oyster-shells?
 
 
Papess
17:06 / 04.02.07
Wouldn't that be seven wedding dresses, if you include the original one you picked? Just a thought.

I have seen "my mother" in my dreams, and in much the same way, she didn't look anything like my mom. I am curious if this happens a lot.

In my case, her face kept changing, but she was definately my mother. She had bestowed on me, in my dream, the gift of time in the form of an unusual pocketwatch. As I awoke I understood this dream to be an encounter with the Mother Goddess.

IN many myths, the Goddess often appears to people in very modest attire, even rags. Plus there seems to be some association of magickal/religious/spiritual rites being indicated such as, marriage and motherhood.

I think it is more about your relationship to yourself as a woman and how you interact and appear to other women, that the Divine Feminine is pointing out to you, MC...unless, you have some wonderful news for the lot of us!
 
 
Papess
18:02 / 04.02.07
Damn double-posting again!

I also meant to thank you, MC, for taking the time to post links the other day.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
18:03 / 04.02.07
Hm, do we have a thread for dream discussions? I have one that seems important but never could fully understand. If not, mind if I or someone else starts one?
 
 
Saturn's nod
09:56 / 05.02.07
Yeah, I'd like a thread on dreams. 'Dream clinic' or something would rock. I love dreams, I love that they seems to me to have a holographic richness, where each tiny feature of them contains a potentially huge and useful message. Or that's the way I treat mine, anyway.

MC, the thing that sprung to mind for me about the mother of pearl flowers is that they are beauty made out of a constant irritation or pain over years: both sides end up beautiful, the grit turns into pearl and the irritated tissue into mother of pearl.
 
 
Papess
11:45 / 05.02.07
Ah yes. The painstakingly nutured process, a labour of love - blood, sweat and tears. Possibly, coming to bloom in some alchemical marriage, er...of sorts?

I love the dichotmy of irritating beauty.

It is really hard to unpack other people's dreams because each person has a different relationship to the symbols. Some symbols are kind of universal, but that is a leap. A Dream thread would be interesting.
 
 
Quantum
13:41 / 05.02.07
Might a goddess/valkyrie/benign feminine entity be preparing you for something? Randomly, the hair washing reminds me of the Inuit goddess Sedna who got a planetoid named after her recently.
"She descended to Adlivum (the Inuit Land of the Dead) where she now rules. As Queen of the Adlivum, Sedna is responsible for sending food to the hunters. To ensure that she continues to feed the people, shamans must descend through many horrifying places to reach Sedna and soothe her.
The route is dangerous and terrifying. The shamans have to pass through countless dead souls, an abyss where an icy wheel turns slowly and perpetually, then past a cauldron full of boiling seals, and finally past the horrible dog that guards the knife-thin passageway into her home. When shaman visit her, they massage Sedna's aching limbs and comb her hair. Only when she is properly comforted will Sedna permit the shaman to return to the people and inform them that she will send the animals to be hunted so that they will not face starvation."

Nice Inuit picture here and sculpture, combing Sedna's hair is a cleansing ritual and I once read that the sins of mankind were the tangles and dirt etc that the shaman combs out. "Perhaps it is because Sedna lost her fingers that she likes to have her hair combed and braided by someone else"

Dream clinic thread started BTW.
 
 
AnonProphet
21:36 / 09.02.07
Random question:

I've had a conjunction of events in the last few days that are a long story, but which led me to the thought that I might be under magical attack by some force or forces. Knowing that to be a dangerously solophsistic (not to mention drama-whoring) idea, I looked into it a bit harder and, in fact, came up with something else entirely that I believe to be the issue (which I am now dealing with on it's own terms: essentially, my theory now is that a very close friend had an intense personal trauma and I'm getting fallout from it. So, up the shields and buy the friend dinner.)

But it got me to wondering, I realized that I don't have any sort of specific technique for determining the origins of an attack in the nonlinear realms, should there actually be one. Plenty of protection, plenty of ass-kickery where needed, but I can't come up with anything off the top of my head for actually figuring out who the hell is waving their mojo stick at me. So, do any of y'all have specific techniques for doing so, aside from the general "read the cards/throw the runes/go to the mirror" stuff?
 
 
AnonProphet
21:55 / 09.02.07
Re: "Drums as mystical thingum".

I play drums in a band, and I do so as ritual every time I'm on stage. The band is electronic dance music, I play electronic drums and several chunks of metal. Not much as far as suble technique goes, but more of a quasi-taiko all-out physicality thing (I strip to the waist, come flying off the stage with a drum, attack people in the crowd with it, etc). I notice that every time we play I am more intensely aware of subtle events in the immediate time afterwards.

Specifically, there was one time, it's a long story but... we had a festival date many miles away, I had just had The Girl say "we can't do this right now", I didn't sleep for 24 before driving hundreds of miles with a spider bite on my ass... anyway, partway into this I realized it was a death and rebirth ritual, dedicated myself to Kali-ma, and ran with it. By the time I hit the stage I was more than slightly delerious, and the climax of the ritual came when we were playing a song which I had never actually understood the lyrics to before, but while there on stage, I realized could have been written (not by me) about the conversation I had had with The Girl before leaving town. I hit the drum solo on that song and... at the end of it, I collapsed onto the stage with blood all over me. I broke one drum, almost dumped another one on someone in the audience, broke two sticks and wound up pounding the rest out with my fists. I think. I don't really remember the rest of the set.

It was an effective ritual, I got what I was looking for out of it, but it had a weird side-effect; starting that night, and for about three months, no dog would come within 20 feet of me without trying to tear my throat out. Dogs I had walked past in the neighborhood dozens of times, "that's odd, she's never even growled at anyone in her life" dogs, everything from teacup poodles to giant dobermans would tear down fences trying to come after me. No idea why. Does Kali have something counter to dogs somehow?

Anyway, there's not much new data in this rambling story, other than to say that, yes, all of the "drumming as spirituality" stuff even works when you're playing synthpop industrial.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
10:32 / 10.02.07
AnonProphet: wow, that's very, very scary. Interesting to me because, while i wouldn't really say i believe in gods (i regard them as very important cultural/psychological archetypes, that sometimes, in certain states of mind, it can be positive to "worship", be "possessed" by, etc, but not so much as "out-there" entities that exist independently of humanity and/or other sentient species - i guess that makes me somewhere between atheist and pantheist), the "god-form" or Archetype i feel most strongly attracted to and inspired by is definitely Kali (and her equivalents or near-equivalents in other pantheons), and i have always had a hate-and-fear relationship, in both directions, with dogs...

I'm OK-ish with them now, if i know and trust their "owners" (tho i really don't like the idea of humans "owning" animals), tho still extremely wary of dogs i don't know, but as a child i was petrified of them to the extent that i literally couldn't walk down a street if i saw a dog at the other end of it, and the sound of a dog barking in particular put me into a state of abject terror approaching catatonia. Dogs, i'm sure, picked up on this, and very often seemed to bark at me, growl at me or strain on their lead to try to chase me (which still happens occasionally). (Oddly, my aunt's dog was the only dog this never applied to, and i always got on fine with her all the way through my childhood.)

So, maybe there is something to do with the Kali archetype and dogs... i wonder if it is something to do with the obedience of dogs, their lack of self-interest, their what Nietzsche might call "slave morality", as i kind of see one aspect of the Kali aspect as representing the destruction of that kind of false consciousness in humanity... also, bringing those kind of anarchist/libertarian ideas and eco-feminism together, i can't help seeing the domestication and physical and mental distortion thru selective breeding of the dog as symbolic both of the domination/distortion of woman by man, non-white by white humans, etc, as well as that of Nature as a whole by industrialist/imperialist Civilisation... so dogs kind of represent, or are the creations of, the aspects of humanity that Kali has, to put it mildly, major problems with?

(all guesswork here, of course, and no intent to insult dog lovers!)

Quantum: "Perhaps it is because Sedna lost her fingers that she likes to have her hair combed and braided by someone else"

Now that's really interesting... a disabled goddess... Does anyone know of any other gods who have "physical" (in quotes cos, well, gods aren't really physical as such, but you know what i mean) impairments, and in particular ones which they require humans to give them assistance with?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:43 / 10.02.07
A lot of Team Norse have bits missing. Odin is one-eyed, Tyr one-handed. Thor has a chunk of whetstone lodged in His forehead. According to some scholars, Heimdall gave up an ear for supernatural hearing. Hodhr is (or was) blind. Loki's lips are scarred from when they got stitched up by an irate Dwarf. Sif has to wear a wig of living gold. There's probably more I either don't know about or have forgotten. They don't need human help, as such; although Thor can be "helped" by not kicking or throwing whetstones around as that gives Him a headache.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:46 / 10.02.07
Would you count it as a "disability" that Hela is half dead?

--Ember--
 
 
grant
01:20 / 11.02.07
Does anyone know of any other gods who have "physical" (in quotes cos, well, gods aren't really physical as such, but you know what i mean) impairments, and in particular ones which they require humans to give them assistance with?

Hephaestus was injured, wasn't he?
"The lame god"?
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
02:15 / 11.02.07
wasn't he born that way? does that count as injury?
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
02:30 / 11.02.07
So, I'm sure there are some threads on it but my search al la google is lacking in the awesome department right now but anyways... anyone ever work with various gods from all sorts of tradition and don't subscribe to the archetype theory. say odin and eris working together for example. hows that work out for you if you do? they ever bicker with each other? etc etc.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:25 / 11.02.07
With more reference to drumming cant find the link but there is a rhythm that is used to banish a space of evil spirits in the middle east which basically goes speaking in doumbek (like a drum) doum tek ka doum tek ka doum (they encourage you to speak this as you are learning, a way to remember and also has mantric qualities, much like Indian classical music and learning to speak and remember them before you play. Not only does this rhythm seem to be effective for banishing, but i have been experimenting and others seem to as well, or create different states.

Now if i remember rightly in vodou there are certain rhythms for certain loa and i am pretty sure its the same within Santeria/Lukumi, i wonder if anybody else has encountered a similar thing working with trance and possession work with relation to the celtic/norse specific rhythm or meter for associated deities.

I am going to see how the middle eastern rhythms fit to egyptian deities in my own practice, or if a combination of north african rhythms might be more suitable, generally experiment. I have had some minor success with sekhmet which was a spontaneous trance state and poetry while drumming to the sun at mid day, dealing with undesirable presences, i want to work on that and not pass it off as a fluke. Drumming seems to help visualisation intensely.

I want to try and get a sense of how rhythm relates not only to my own internal state, but how it relates to a spirits mood and character, because if the possession state is induced via dancing, then rhythm and time play an important part in allowing or drawing the character of certain spirits forward, just as they create a certain sense of time in the body through movement, am i making sense? Perhaps the way or means of relationship to time brings forth certain spirits/presences/perceptions. Then if our bodies come into accord through breath or full physical movement we allow certain things outside our usual experience of time to manifest.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:41 / 11.02.07
I am thinking of a relationship to time expressed as a subjective experience, more the quality of time than the quantity, how time feels, how i process thought, the rhythm of my thought, the pace of consciousness so to speak, and how that effects my interaction with my environment, speeding the body up, slowing it down, it also effects social interactions and perception of communication.

I wonder if observers at rituals have an entirely different perception of events because they are not participants, ie they are not in time or rhytm with the ritual, so they are occluded from the experience. perhaps.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:11 / 12.02.07
I also wonder about death figures, time lords aside thou tangentially relevant, over the last 5 years or so the death figures i have studied have all had a relationship to time of some sort, embodying the cycle of life and death.

The notion of a circle often represents that cycle with makers at places for various festivals/life experiences, if the drum comes to be the heartbeat of that circle of life and death, and the dancing is taking place within that circle to the different rhythms that life brings forth, then the circle of people clapping and singing represent that circle of life (lion king!) and death (not lion king) which those cycles partake of the people, the community.

Drumming, dancing, clapping, singing, chanting and screaming then become a way to embody the entirety of a community cosmology within the fabric of the people. The cycle of a particular cultures mythology and cosmology is quite literally a part of them in a real way, the cosmology is not an abstraction but bound into the timing of peoples lives. In there sweat and voices and there rhythms there hearts and body's learn to follow and create.

I contemplate silence, has this in someway become symbolic of death, the end of rhythm, because its what i have always noted about cemetarys the sound becomes muted, a profound peace, but the kind of peace that comes from emptiness.
 
 
grant
14:44 / 12.02.07
wasn't he born that way? does that count as injury?

Depends on who you ask -- I grew up with the version that it was being chucked/falling into Mount Aetna that messed him up. There's probably a better way to describe the condition.

I'm sure, also, that there are plenty of blind deities. Hod (what killed Balder) comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

Honir is also a little... off, I think. Or would be were he human.

I know I've read a lot of African folk tales with half-bodied heroes, but none of them are exactly divinities. And there's something Irish trying to claw its way into my consciousness but failing. Some vital weakness, Achilles-style, with one of 'em.
 
 
Ticker
15:07 / 12.02.07
The Irish High Kings all had to be of whole body without flaw and Nuada Silver Hand being a famous prosthetic user.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:14 / 12.02.07
Come to think of it, I'd have to say that Mimir is pretty seriously fucking disabled.

AnonProphet: I realized that I don't have any sort of specific technique for determining the origins of an attack in the nonlinear realms, should there actually be one. Plenty of protection, plenty of ass-kickery where needed, but I can't come up with anything off the top of my head for actually figuring out who the hell is waving their mojo stick at me.

The question I have to ask is why you would need to, exactly. If it's a specific and focused psychic attack on you, personally, you'll likely have a shrewd idea as to who it is and will be able to tailor your response accordingly. If it's random unfocused malice, your routine cleanse + shield excercises should see it off. (For example, I am aware of the many, many assorted runic curses floating around against evil Loki-worshipping False Heathens, but I don't bother to go after the authors personally. I trust my own practice to keep the foo icks off, and to reflect a proportion of the malice back to the sender.)
 
 
AnonProphet
00:43 / 13.02.07
MC: The question I have to ask is why you would need to, exactly. If it's a specific and focused psychic attack on you, personally, you'll likely have a shrewd idea as to who it is and will be able to tailor your response accordingly.

Agreed, completely. I think what I was looking for primarily was a confirmation of information gained through other means. Specifically in this case I was looking for a source of attack in order to confirm that it was in fact an attack (which, of course, it wasn't, which knowledge I'd like to hope would come more quickly next time). Additionally, to put it bluntly, I tend to piss people off. I came up with three names off the top of my head that fit your "shrewd idea" and it was in narrowing that list that I realized I was completely on the wrong track.

Essentially what it comes down to is the fact that my my perception of these things seems to fluctuate in a pseudorandom way, so I never feel that I can completely trust my perceptions, as my perceptions occasionally will tell me two completely contradictory things.

I guess I'm just looking for additional sources of data beyond my raw instinct in order to gain a bit more objectivity. Really, the question could be expanded to fit a wide variety of situations, it's just that "under attack" involves a fairly quantatative bit of data (the identity of the attacker) which would make results simpler to determine.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
01:41 / 13.02.07
I guess I'm just looking for additional sources of data beyond my raw instinct in order to gain a bit more objectivity.

At the end of the day, what else can you look to but your instincts and logic?
 
 
Quantum
08:58 / 13.02.07
Witness testimony? The wisdom of the ages? Advice from your mum?
 
  

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