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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:39 / 19.04.04
Since Barbelith has become searchable by external search-engines, we've seen a welcome influx of new members.

I thought it might be helpful to start a companion thread to the ones in the Lab. and the Head Shop, so that people who have questions relating to magick and spirituality will have a convenient and non-intimidating place to get some answers.
 
 
Olulabelle
08:54 / 21.04.04
Skit asked, in a different thread, "What is Gnosis...please explain, this is coming up alot!"

I am sure there are heaps of people here who can explain this better than me, but roughly, a Gnostic state is achieved when you lose awareness of your body and your consious mind, and allow your subconsious mind to fully function. It can be achieved using a myriad of techniques, but there are basically two 'routes' to achieving the state which are;

Inhibitory - "Inhibitory techniques are generally contemplative or yogic in character and are aimed at reducing sensory stimulus" for example by meditation

and

Excitatory - "Excitatory techniques, in contrast, depend on hyper-stimulation as a means of modifying consciousness" for example through pain or extreme dancing, or orgasm.

I guess the easiest and simplest way to achieve it is through orgasm, as this happens naturally. That method is actually called Erotognosis and there's an interesting article here by Phil Hine which talks about that and Gnosis in general which you might want to read.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:09 / 21.04.04
I'd argue that the word "gnosis" has only taken on that meaning over the last 20 years. Technically, 'gnosis' implies direct personal experience of the divine. It's St Paul on the road to Damascus, Philip K Dick receiving knowledge and conversation with VALIS in the form of a pink laser beam, the crisis of possession in Haitian Vodou, etc... A massive spiritual experience that impacts on every aspect of your life. I think the fact that the term 'gnosis' is currently in popular usage as a synonym for something like "a heightened state of consciousness" is a bit dodgy. Maybe even vaguely Orwellian, as it implies there's no difference between these huge insane (and accessible) spiritual experiences and the states of non-ordinary consciousness that you acheive after spinning in a circle for 10 minutes, or holding your breath for as long as you can, or orgasming over a bit of paper, etc...
 
 
Olulabelle
12:24 / 21.04.04
Gypsy, yes, agreed. I was assuming the 'modern day' interpretation of gnosis was what Skit was asking about.

Skit?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
01:48 / 22.04.04
It seems like the early fundamental concept of Chaos Magick was the idea of taking standard ceremonial magick techniques and applying those to cosmologies of your own choosing and/or design.

But, uh... erm. This is embarrassing, but what do ceremonial magicians... y'know... do? You've got your correspondences and you know that you want to use cinnamon incense for Mercury and you're wearing the proper pointy hat and then you banish and then you [ ] and then when you're done you close the circle because all the nasty stuff you generated while doing [ ] needs to be cleared away.

I primarily work with my headspace and with text and art and math and found objects and meditation. I've never really known what sorts of actions (physical? verbal? internal? do you hold something pointy?) are performed during a 'ritual', and since I've never had a fully formed ritual download into my head, I've just used the techniques that did.
 
 
illmatic
09:12 / 22.04.04
In terms of the Western ceremonial rituals I've experienced, I found elements in it not dissimilar to more freeform stuff - in say, charging a mercury tailisman there's still a build up of power - which might take the form of an incantation to/invocation of Mercury from a traditonal source, perhaps a pathworking, set number of chants or tolls of a bell, the making of specific offerings etc - and there's still the element of visualising "energy"/"essence" empowering the tailisman. It may take a while though than and doesn't rely on the "gnostic sneeze" for some pseudo-scientic explantion of how magick works. I wonder if the power in these rituals comes in part from making the bloody effort to assemble all the necessary corresponding bits and pieces, buld an altar etc. as well as a sense of familarity from regualrly working with these ingredients.

You might find it useful to look at Lon Milo Duquette's book "The Magick of Thelema" - this really gave me an appreciation of the depth and design behind Crowleys rituals - I think you can see these rituals as complex mnemoic structures which represent a complete cosmology. It feels as if one inhabits such a structure (moves into a house) and brings it to life. One unfolds an intellectual understanding/map of the cosmos into a living expression of that cosmology through a combination of sound, speech, visualistion, breath, movement and gesture. The little I've done of this sort of work made me appreciate the depth and complexity - the complexity equals involvement. It's as if all the set elements unfold around you, and as you think through the symbolism etc start to live with it, it becomes part of your mental furniture.

I've more experience in tantrik ritual work, which has similar elements with different points of emphasis. Additonal elements to be found here include nyasa, mantra and mudra -I'm not going to details of all three here, but say for instance with mudra, this is the use of the hands to make specific shapes which represent certain elements in the ritual, forms of the Goddess or whatever - thus for instnce you might make eight offerings by making the shapes of a drum, fish, etc with your hands alongside an accompanying visualision. This might be carried out alongside chanting a mantra which again has it's own set of meanings/ideas/symbolism attached as well as the bodily impact of the chant. Combine this with incense, altars, prayers, devotion - and then I think you're "cooking with gas".

This is what irks me about the naive arrogance I soemtimes find in some Chaos magick writing when they dismiss all this stuff without ever having tried it or developed a sophisicated understanding or it. True, big formal rituals can get boring at times ("high church"), but so can the Choas magick run around screaming - fire sigils appraoch. The former is a richer approach to me, but I wouldn't want to be tied to having to do it all the time. (Actually, I often do abbreviations of stuff before mediatation etc). yeah, it can get a bit tired and formulaic - but I've also found it to be a great vehicle for building drama, expressing devotion and emotional engagement.
 
 
Andek Niemand
12:18 / 22.04.04
Ok, since we have a thread to cover these stupid questions, I have one that's been on my mind for some time now...

I have practiced magick for some time now, but there's an aspect to magickal practice I've never tried, and that is invocations. I don't mean the general type of invoking {energy, elemental force} as in Invoking ritual of the pentagram or the like, but actual invocation of a {loa, god/dess, thoughtform, something similar}.

What benefits does one get from being possessed by Pallas Athene or Papa Guedhe or Spock or whoever?

What do you do while possessed?

Do you use invocations only in the ritual setting (I mean, do you invoke, do magick, then banish the entity) or in day-to-day life (that is, walk around the city while possessed etc.)?
I'm actually very curious about this, but don't want to try it myself without knowing what to expect.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
13:03 / 22.04.04
Is "atheistic magick" (Magick minus ANY "divine forces") an entirely implausible notion? If not, is there any specific reading material that might detail the thoughts of individuals who have attempted such a practice?
 
 
illmatic
13:10 / 22.04.04
Well, Chaos Magick at least as expressed by Pete Caroll, is pretty aethistic. I think he'd fit your crieria especially as he's trying to develop scientific models to explain magick. Anyone think of any others?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:28 / 22.04.04
I'd say that in practice the lines between 'evocation' and 'invocation' are decidely blurry. When engaging with entity work you might get a sense of presence in the room along with a kind of overshadowing sensation in your head, as if you are in telepathic contact with another personality, or engaged in some kind of dialogue. I'd speculate that full possession is like a ramped up version of this where your personality is entirely engulfed by the God/dess that is riding you.

I wouldn't attempt this as a solo practice, as someone has to be there to run things, ask questions, record results, and make sure you don't injure yourself or anything. When you are possessed, you don't do anything, the God/dess does. You disappear for a bit and let them occupy your body to eat, drink, dance, tell you stuff, perform magic, whatever they feel should be done. It is primarily religious and affords you the experience of union with the Divine.

As a disclaimer, I wouldn't attempt going for this at all with any of the Lwa or Orisha unless you are a fully trained Houngan or Santero, or happen to have one in the room with you.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:04 / 22.04.04
Invocation does not 'automatically' imply possession - there are many different shades of experience possible. Pete Carroll explains invocation with characteristic brevity as: conscious identification with a complex entity. The basic idea is that by identifying with that entity, one hopes to 'gain' (albeit temporarily) some of the abilities associated with that entity. For example, an invocation of Ganesa (bearing in mind that one of his attributes is "the removal of obstacles") could be performed in order to gain new insights into the nature of a particular problem. Such insights may come in the form of dreams, flashes of inspiration, or events which seemingly indicate that Ganesa has made the problem go away for you - depending on how you view these things.
I would say that, from my own experience of doing invocatory magic (both as a solo practitioner, and in a group), that without a good deal of practice (unless one is brought up in a religion which encourages possession - like some forms of Christianity), it's quite difficult for someone living in a culture such as ours to 'get possessed' for any length of time. Full possession implies that it's no longer 'you' in charge of your actions - it's the entity which has been invoked to "inhabit" your body; so you may not be conscious of doing things until people tell you what you did after the fact. Again, there are many shades to this.
Hope that makes sense.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
14:27 / 22.04.04
Cheers, Ill.

Perhaps I might make the question more specific and say, "Magick without spirituality, internal or otherwise." No spirits, no gods, no goddesses. Not even if they're just in your mind.

That treads into NLP and meme theory, doesn't it? Maybe I've answered my own question. I might've just asked "Is there such a thing as empirical science?", eh?

Well, this is the stupid questions thread.
 
 
illmatic
14:44 / 22.04.04
SQ: I dunno actually, I think it's a potentially interesting question. I'm thinking of systems that rely purely on "energetic" models, rather than spritual ones, to explain everything - Reiki, for instance. Although, it's got a kind of Christian conception of divinity at it's core. THe only other energetic system that comes to mind is Mesmerism (Anton Mesmer) but I don't know much about his stuff. I guess the question might be is does it qualify as a magical system, adn what defines this. That might be a bit too long winded for this thread.
 
 
cusm
18:18 / 22.04.04
What do you do while possessed?

Well, that depends. If you are fully ego shatteredly possessed, you don't really have to worry about that as its not "you" doing anything.

But if its more on the invocationary level, your ego is still present though you have called the aspects of the being upon you. Crowley describes the experience as one ascending to the level of the diety, becomming the deity, and then performing magick as the diety. That last bit is the real key to it all. Acting as the diety and invested with their power (or standing in their presence, depending on how you do it), you make whatever pronouncement, blessing, request, command, or enchantment you had in mind that you needed their attention for. Or, just meditate on the experience of seeing things from their perspective to learn about or access parts of your own psyche.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:16 / 23.04.04
Heart chakra, if while doing a massage you feel that there's a shedload of hot energy round here, and none around the base chakra, what's this likely to mean?
 
 
cusm
16:07 / 23.04.04
With this kind of chackra work, think of the chackras as tarot cards of a sort, and the situation a reading. Heart=love. Pent up energy? Possibly in love? Base = grounding, physical level. Lack of energy indicating a lack of focus on the material and immediate. Perhaps they're focused on love to the point of not paying attention to their own health. Could be obsessive tendencies. Could be strong emotional needs not being met. Could be an imbalace of love vs sex. Either way, they've blocked something and are probably giving it way too much attention. You'll have to poke around a bit more and talk to them to find out more specificly what's going on and how to apply what you've seen to their situation to help them regain balance.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:09 / 23.04.04
That treads into NLP and meme theory, doesn't it?

Perfect Tommy's Law: Any sufficiently prosaic magick is indistinguishable from technology.

I've been playing around with the idea of all 'magic' being ripples and eddies in what I refer to as the 'ether', by which I mean the medium through which complex systems (ecosystems, societies, brains) pass information. No spirits required, though I keep them in my worldview under the heading 'extra-dimensional intelligences' (EDIs) because my Wyrd Science paradigm needed more acronyms.
 
 
Skit
11:16 / 27.04.04
Yes, sorry haven't been on this thread for aeons, I did want to know what gnosis meant nowadays!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:23 / 27.04.04
Well, Skit, both olulabelle's and Gypsy's statements regarding Gnosis are equally valid - it all depends on the particular context in which they are used. The word Gnosis is derived from the Greek Gignosko and implies a special (or hidden) form of knowing - as opposed to episteme (everyday know-how). In terms of the 'heretical' sects collected under the heading Gnostics - Gnosis becomes a sign of revelatory experience - an experience of which changes the individual. Hence Gypsy's comments.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
22:14 / 27.04.04
My question weren't so stupid after all, Ill? Hyukk.

As far as Perfect Tommy's remarks go, what's the difference between an EDI and a spirit? The way we use the term? The methods we use to confirm their existence?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
04:20 / 28.04.04
EDI is my own term (unless I stole it from the Mage RPG's Sons of Ether and promptly forgot). An EDI is an entity which seems to act intelligently and of its own volition, but has no objective reality. The creatures you encounter in dreams, literary characters which seem to have their own ideas about how to be written, and the more traditional 'gods' are all EDIs—they don't seem to be made out of matter, and may be constructs of the viewer's brain, but that's all irrelevant if they can be bargained with, negotiated with, or outright commanded into doing something useful.

The reason I bothered coming up with the term is that I didn't find it useful to worry myself over whether these things were 'real' or not—even if they're not, they can have real effects. (Dreams of personal significance are the best examples.) If I call them EDIs, then they can be made of ectoplasm or out of vortices between my subconscious and the coincidences around me and it doesn't make a lick of difference either way.

(Er... this doesn't really belong in a pseudo-FAQ, does it?)
 
 
johnj
11:05 / 28.04.04
Can any of you visit me in my dreams? Do you need me to post you some of my hair or something? Put my smell in a bottle? something? If my usernames a symbol of everything I am, just use that if its convenient. thanks!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:51 / 28.04.04
Can I ask why you think any of us would want to spend our valuable time visiting you in your dreams? Why are you trying to persuade someone you haven't met to put an evening aside to do this for you?
 
 
illmatic
12:42 / 28.04.04
Well, I'll come but only if you're dead fit. Can you post a photo, please?
 
 
johnj
14:52 / 29.04.04
I want to experience the magick, and yes i am blatantly well fit. I mean come on, it can't take that long can it? You might learn something useful! Or not.

Anyway, it said "stupid questions." -This- is my stupid question. I guess it none of you are going to? I had a strange dream last night, but that was old school friends visiting me and tbh - it was because I was eating late.
 
 
Glandmaster
12:49 / 03.05.04
Shanghi said: Is "atheistic magick" (Magick minus ANY "divine forces") an entirely implausible notion? If not, is there any specific reading material that might detail the thoughts of individuals who have attempted such a practice?

I practise Reiki which is pretty specific in having no links to any religeon or whatever (marking a difference between Reiki and say Spiritual(ist) healing). I do not belive in any god or god force etc and have no problems using this healing form. Alot of healers I know do associate thier healing with thier religeons which is fair enough - I think its about what you internalise to make your practise 'work'. I know of one guy who uses Star Trek imagery and sounds and visualises his healees in a sick bay before a healing session! Different horses...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:28 / 05.05.04
Okay, I got one:

One of the angels/aliens/figments of my diseased imagination, the ones that dictate the green blog, has been very politely asking if he can have a lend of my vocal cords. His idea is that he speaks through me and then we can record what he says, maybe stick it on the net. This is partly to help get his message across, and partly to help me with some communication ishoos manifesting as sore throats and chest infections.

Since I've never done this before, I'd like some tips.
 
 
grant
19:44 / 05.05.04
On the "lending" part or on the "recording and putting on the net" part? I can give tips on the latter, but not the former.

Probably best done via PM or else in another thread though -- there's some stuff about that tech in the Music forum.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:33 / 05.05.04
The lending-of-vocal-chords part. I'm pretty well up on the recording and webifying parts, but thanks for the offer.
 
 
Quantum
21:06 / 05.05.04
I have a question- am I doing it right?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:21 / 05.05.04
*Makes backwards whistling noise like an expensive plumber*

No. No, no, no, no, no.

*Hands Quantum some chintz oven gloves, a potted geranium and a packet of root-beer-flavoured bidi*

Now try it.
 
 
Quantum
21:22 / 05.05.04
Hang on, some clarification- I am serious. I practice magick as an intuitive religion in a way, I do spells on impulse to no particular purpose as it feels right. I have the idea that most magic is either desire driven or agenda driven, or at least driven in some way. I don't do it like that, I do it as it seems appropriate.
For example, one equinox I stood on a hilltop and channeled energy from the sky into the hill on instinct (biographical note; it was St Catherine's hill, cut through by a motorway so it probably did need healing). Was I being a magician? Or perhaps a naive Pagan? Or a shaman?
Is my Intent unfocussed? Should my Chi be more balanced? Should I meditate more or find a path? Or am I just doubting myself as one does on the path, or trying to find a 'Truth' or an objective way that isn't there to find?
Anyway, am I doing it right? (this is a thread entitled stupid questions....)
 
 
EvskiG
21:48 / 05.05.04
You've already answered your own question.

To determine whether you're "doing it right" you need to decide what, if anything, you're trying to accomplish.

If you're not trying to accomplish anything in particular, then you're almost certainly not doing it wrong.

If you're trying to accomplish something in particular, then you need to decide whether the way you practice helps you to reach your goal.

There's no magical authority to tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing. You get to decide.
 
 
Char Aina
21:49 / 05.05.04
i think there are two types of quite distinct practice.
foucused and unfocused if you like.
natural and designed.
made and born.

whatever.

what you are talking about is something i also do occasionaly find myself doing, but i am wary (necessarily?duno) of.
if you are driven by an outside power, who knows what they might ask you to do? if it is an internal force driving you, are you comfortable with the unconscious desires popping through without prior warning or agreement?

explaining it in hindsight(as in the hill needing healed) is all good and well, but i would find out a bit more what it is manifesting without permission.

its like being a sub without doing a background check for your dom; fun, exciting, and possibly an interesting direction to take your personal development, but much more likely to end messily if you dont check yourself.

did the contolling urge awaken inside or join your psyche?




all Great Advice from the Sage of Dennistoun.
i'm a stupid sage, however, so you shouldnt listen to me.
 
 
Char Aina
21:52 / 05.05.04
i had a stupid belief question over in the conversation. feel free to join in the thread, if you have anything to add.

DUH-arma!
 
  

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