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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:46 / 28.01.07

You asked a question. It sort of rang alarm bells for me, so I asked for a little more information regarding it. Like you say, this is the questions thread so you were completely free to tell me to bog off and mind my own business. Instead, you provided more information (thankyou) and then made an unsolicited observation (the Jack Sparrow thing).

This is not "psychological abuse," dude. This is me, doing my job. I'm the mod of a magic forum. If someone posts something I think indicates that they might not have thought things through, I'm generally inclined to pick them up on it. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or pick your life to bits. I don't know anything about your life. What I'm trying to do is open up an avenue of investigation for you. I was initially a bit stroppy about it a) because Lwa = Greek Gods = pop cultural icons is one of those paradigms that gets trotted out often and examined rarely and b) you've been a bit stroppy in the past yourself.

if you're really concerned about my practice then throw in the name of some loa/lwa/"'god'" you think would be more effective.

Since you ask: you know, it might not be a bad idea to stick with Jack Sparrow for now. You'll be engaging with the Trickster mysteries through a mask that is evidently at least as meaningful to you as any God, and probably a lot more familiar. Try and really get under Jack's skin. See if the writers of the film made up any back story for Jack that you could employ in your workings. Build a Jack shrine, or make a Jack Sparrow mojo that you carry around with you. Think about the mysteries that Jack embodies--the things that make you exited about his character, the things that draw you to him--and think about how you can best express those things in your own life. I bet you could build a pretty solid practice around Jack if you put your mind to it. Might make an exiting project, and would be a great thread topic. (People here tried to do something similar with Yoda a while back but it sort of fizzled.)

15:08 / 28.01.07

The writers of PotC were explicit (in the official press release for PotC2, available somewheres online) that they intended Jack Sparrow to be "a kind of demigod of piracy" - not a bad start. To wax Fortean for a moment, if you do work with Jack, don't be surprised if he starts to act like he's more nearly real than you are (and don't get talked into the Will Turner role). Otherwise: yo ho ho.

Meanwhile, I'm with Mordant on the "doing hir job as a Temple mod" bit, sn00p. Nothing personal - it's just how "we" do things around here.

Unconditional Love

15:08 / 28.01.07

Libertatia

Barbary pirate

The influence depp sites for jack sparrow

Hopefully you will find those links add more depth to the idea of the archetypal pirate, thief, trickster and general scoundrel whom cheats death and life.

15:08 / 28.01.07

Otherwise: yo ho ho.

Oh, and a bottle of rum.

Unconditional Love

15:32 / 28.01.07

Another thought, try purchasing a replica cutlass, or occasionally ebay has very old pirate antiquities floating around, try working with them.

16:35 / 28.01.07

I've got a friend who's a slightly dodgy antique dealer who kind of specialises in esoteric and occult items. Last time i saw him he'd just bought a 17th century silver assassins dagger (the handle was the shape of a monkeys skeleton!) that, according to the pile of paperwork of auction provenance dating back to 1830, used to belong to Captain Kidd! I salivated over it for quite a time but the bugger wouldn't let me keep it!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:43 / 28.01.07

Damn, that's so cool.

Unconditional Love

17:38 / 28.01.07

The item i once bid on was allegedly an old pirates hook, i never won it, the price went far too high, the Chinese jade phallus went for a fortune as well, 19th century beautiful piece.

I was looking at modern piracy on wikipedia earlier and frighteningly enough it appears to be on the increase in certain shipping areas. I am reminded of this because this exact same area came up in my last seven year cycle, which seems to of started a new again, but with slightly different themes and directions.

Anybody put anything in the 28 year saturn cycles? Thats the year i had my n.d.e and the human body renews its cells every 7 years, i wonder if the 4 blocks of seven then trigger an overall renewal, causing an almost death like experience? Anything the human body does every 28 years anybody?

Saturn return

19:03 / 28.01.07

"Year 2008 is the next leap year, with 29 days in February. February 2008 has five Fridays - it starts and ends on a Friday. Between 1904 and 2096, leap years with same day of week for each date repeat every 28 years which means that the last time February had 5 Fridays was in 1980 and next time will be in 2036."

An interesting 28 cycle, but not directly in relation to the body.

Could there be some similarities between 28 day menstrual cycles and Saturn's cycle, especially in association to Binah? There is mention of Saturn's 28 year significance in Hebrew Astrology, in the Wikipedia.

I am not sure if that helps at all.

Unconditional Love

07:43 / 29.01.07

Intresting stuff, the 28 year solar cycle is based on the julian calendar, i have been trying to figure this in without much success, also the 7 years thing from a scientific view point doesnt fit as further research suggests that this is an average and the bodily renewal of cells may be from 7-10 years, with certain organs taking alot longer and others considerably less On the influence of the gravitation potentials of planets and stars on the physical and biological processes may hold some glimmer of hope, but i doubt the numbers will add up.

I do wonder thou if the conscious adherence of human consciousness to a certain form of calendrical time, could effect how it responds to that perception of cycles, it may well have to do with psychological symbolic structures that have played a large role in my perception of time, 7 days in a week etc, 28 years before N.D.E, Me trying to force personal psychological variables into existing structures.

Yet i still feel the need to look at perceptions of time and physical processes to equate some form of meaning from these personal 7 year cycles and 28 year cycles, in a sense thou i could be preparing myself for these cycles through auto suggestion every 7 years with a big crunch followed by a big bounce every 28, roll on 56!

Thinking more on the the symbolic perception of time and how time as a reality is interacted with as if the measurements of time are in some sense real, what overall effect would that be having on collective consciousness, theoretically, and how we interact with perception and events on a temporal basis. I am thinking largely of subjective perception of temporal events.

10:52 / 29.01.07

with your talk of exchanging Hermes for Papa Ghede and Ti Malice--that Gods are neat and interchangable, like the facia of a mobile phone. Hermes doesn't go with your stuff? Just snap Him off and clip a Lwa on instead. YMMV, of course, but I have not found this to be the case. Again, this is a recurring topic.

Are there threads here that deal with syncretism and/or the transitioning between different systems and deities? I cannot remember any specific threads, although this topic certainly does crop up from time to time.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:06 / 29.01.07

I'd draw a distinction between naturally-evolving religious syncretism, and what I was referring to upthread: a kind of shallow mythopoetic fingerpainting where you look up Trickster or Love or War deities on Google and grab whoever you think will look coolest on your coffee-table altar.

Tired of those stuffy old Greek Gods? Bored with the Romans? Too cultured for those cosmic lager-louts, the Norse? Why not choose from a range of non-European deities and spirits! For the moody, introspective Goth, we have the Egyptian pantheon--just the thing to set off your eyeliner. For the crystal-lovin' mystic, how about the Hindu Gods? And for the jaded mage who's tried everything twice, there's the wild and wacky world of Voodoo Gods--just like in Dr. No! Just pick 'em up and plug 'em in! It's not like anyone's using them (no-one who matters, anyhow).

Rant. Sorry.

(No I'm not.)

There's a lot of discussion but it's spread across different threads, often not threads that are obviously about the topic, so finding it all is nontrivial. This thread is relevent to the topic at hand: Post-Modern Magick. Got good and juicy, if a bit too heavy on teh dramaz for my taste. Then there's this one, a lively topic on the subject of entity creation; Fictional vs Real magic, which deals with the differences and similarities between working with fictional characters of recent vintage, Gods and other spirits; Gods vs Supoerheroes, much the same; and a Pop Culture Entity working that kind of went 'phut'.

On the topic of whether it's really OK to glomph someone else's deities when you have perfectly good Jack Sparrows knocking around we have the fine fine Cultural Appropriation thread. Here, our very own Chiropteran talks about just such a dillema from a personal perspective. On a related note, there's the Magical spaces and cultural signifiers thread.

I'm not saying any of this is required reading or whatever for sn00p or for anybody else (although personally I would quite like it if more ppl read the cultural appropriation thread) but it might be interesting.

15:02 / 29.01.07

Hey,

I'm currently trying to connect more with Kwannon, (or Guan Yin, Kuan Yin, etc.) and was wondering if anyone else here works with him/her. If so, do you have any decent online info/sutras/texts that you know of, or are there any particularly good books out there?

Unconditional Love

16:07 / 29.01.07

The egyptian traditions are far from moody, just to break a stereotype, i get where your coming from, especially figures like horus and anubis if studied well enough, all that gold and sunshine. thats the problem really people dipping there toe in the shallow end of the pool without submerging themselves in the water totally, treating magic /spirituality as a game, rather than as it is for many who stick with it, a way of life.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:16 / 29.01.07

And for the jaded mage who's tried everything twice, there's the wild and wacky world of Voodoo Gods--just like in Dr. No!

That was Live and Let Die.

You have much to learn, Childe.

18:36 / 29.01.07

Does anyone here have an opinion of the teachings of George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff, because I'm trying to decide whether to buy one very old copy of his "Beelzebub's tales to his grandson". The writing struck me as fairly obtuse, and long winded, but I was still very much intrigued when I found the book in the basement of a second hand bookstore today.

19:11 / 29.01.07

I'm currently trying to connect more with Kwannon, (or Guan Yin, Kuan Yin, etc.) and was wondering if anyone else here works with him/her. If so, do you have any decent online info/sutras/texts that you know of, or are there any particularly good books out there?

Still actively worshipped/recognized in China.

Although, hmm.

OK, Guanyin is the Chinese face of a figure who emerged from India as Avolokiteshvara, sidekick to the Buddha, then kind of merged with this Princess Miao (I think that was her name -- associated with a lighthouse, at any rate), before migrating over to Japan and becoming a man again.

SO -- you might find devotions to Kannon, the multiarmed Japanese dude (always has one more shoulder to cry on!) a bit different from Chinese conceptions of Guanyin, which will also be different from related-but-not-the-same merciful goddesses in Tibet (like White Tara), and other representations of the good bodhisattva from India.

"Sutras" are Buddhist scriptures, so if you're looking for those, they're more than likely only going to deal with Av, and not with Guanyin or Kannon. Unless they're some sort of other text that's just *called* a sutra by people trying to make it fit.

So who exactly are you working with here?

20:00 / 29.01.07

Does anyone here have an opinion of the teachings of George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff

I think some of the actual ideas of Gurdjieff are pretty marvellous and potentially life-changing, his idea of self-remembering in particular. I wrote a smidgin about that here.("Life is real then, only when 'I am' "). As to the rest of his ideas, I think you have to divorce the cosmology from the experiential/perceptual and stuff (so that'd be all the stuff about octaves vs. his notions of the three centres and so forth). The latter seems usable to me, the former much less so, but maybe you can meet someone who can give you an "initiated" guide to it.

... because I'm trying to decide whether to buy one very old copy of his "Beelzebub's tales to his grandson". The writing struck me as fairly obtuse, and long winded, but I was still very much intrigued when I found the book in the basement of a second hand bookstore today.

IIRC, one of Gurdjieff's books was written in a deliberately difficult style to encourage readers to dig deeper, to be more active readers. He later decided this experiment was a failure. Now, that book may have been BTTHG, but it might've been something else - can't recall, sorry! I've never read it myself - or any of his works. I'd suggest picking it up if it's cheap enough and finding your way to an esoteric bookshop with a good Gurdjieff/Fourth Way selection and picking up some of the material commenting on his teachings. Not sure what to recommend here really - stuff with the maximum experiential content and minimum of cosmic waffle, I suppose. I did like Charles Tart's book on his teachings but it wasn't a "keeper".

Here's an interesting essay on the man by SF author John Shirley.

23:54 / 29.01.07

So who exactly are you working with here?

I'm mainly looking for the Chinese Guanyin. I can track down sutras for the Buddhist version fairly easily I suppose, but it's the way the figure moved over to China and became a female Goddess that's interesting and puzzling me quite a lot at the same time, and I'm trying to find anything decent from the Chinese side that I can work with.

I should've explained that better in the previous post, but yeah, the Chinese female aspect.

13:10 / 30.01.07

Thank you very much, Eggs, for the last link and the info.

14:51 / 30.01.07

I think this is the most Convo of Temple threads so I'm going to stick this here.

A fun birthday info web factoid page

A lot of stuff was funny, interesting, or duh...until I got to the moon phase I was born under.
Let's just say I was caught between laughing hysterically and wanting a shot of booze as it is of course the phase most important to my Gods. Lawful Prey anyone?

(I then and went checked another lunar site to confirm it 'cause I'm paranoid)

17:31 / 30.01.07

The moon was waxing gibbously on my birhday. I've no idea what this means but it's suitable Lovecraftian.

22:23 / 30.01.07

'Tis. You are now entitled to wear a long black frock coat and wave a hanky thus conveying your displeasure to the younger monsterlings.

07:37 / 31.01.07

The moon was waxing gibbously on my birhday.

Me too!

(waving hanky...)

11:21 / 31.01.07

the best part was somehow my imagination supplied a tentacle as the means for rosie x to wave her hanky....

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:42 / 31.01.07

A tentacle is always the best means to wave a hanky.

11:45 / 31.01.07

...waving pink lace hanky from slimy green tentacle...

14:24 / 31.01.07

I'm mainly looking for the Chinese Guanyin. I can track down sutras for the Buddhist version fairly easily I suppose, but it's the way the figure moved over to China and became a female Goddess that's interesting and puzzling me quite a lot at the same time, and I'm trying to find anything decent from the Chinese side that I can work with.

In my (limited) experience, there's something very close to the way Guanyin is approached and the way various "Virgins of..." are approached in European Catholicism, only less uniform since there's no such thing as a Buddhist (or Taoist) pope. (Yeah, the Dalai Lama comes close, but people in Foshan or Harbin could care less what he has to say.) The doctrine is established in indirect ways (tempted to call it rhizomatic, if you don't mind getting all poststructural about it).

In *general*, any of the kinds of observances you'll see in "folk" Taoism would apply -- small statuettes, incense, contemplation of the figure. The specifics will vary locally.

You may find the page on the Temple wiki useful for chasing down links. Has some details about Guanyin's past and her two attendants (the dragon king's daughter and the young man of excellent capacities).

14:32 / 31.01.07

more web fun: The Kuan Yin Prophecies

yeah I dunno about the scholarship on it but it was lovely to use.

14:55 / 31.01.07

You might find this a bit exhaustive. And exhausting, from the sounds of it.

13:08 / 01.02.07

Thanks, that really is a great help Grant, and nice work with the Barb wiki pages! And yeah that ritual does look exhaustive, but it might help to give some ideas for something I could do myself instead, so thanks for that aswell.

Ah and XK, that prophecy page was cool to try out, cheers for the link!

ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!

10:33 / 02.02.07

The other day, I was thinking about the rune threads we had here, and particularly the person who spoke about DNA informing their understanding of the runes (or... similar, I'm not really sure how to interpret). Today I got spam email, from "genetic be" with the subject "Runiversity", which I thought was a pretty good coincidence. But it leads me to ask, is there any use in 'talking to your dna', and if so, how would one go about doing it?

I have read, around, that some people consider there to be a link between shamanism and a kind of communion with DNA, but you read a lot of stupid shit about shamanism and [mental illness/astral battles!!!@1/pokemon], and I'm not really interested in moving in on some other culture's turf like that (runes, which I'm a bit scared to look into in case I get jumped by an old man in a hat, are 'my' culture, in as much as I've always been told my family are from scandinavia via ireland) - but I'm interested in the idea in general. If it's at all valid.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:36 / 02.02.07

At the risk of sounding like Bizzaro Mordant for a second, I doubt TOEB is going to jump ya just because you begin studying the runes. In-depth runic study will of necessity take you onto Odin's turf but even then you're not necessarily going to draw His gaze in a personal way. It's a risk, yeah; but then good magic is often a bit risky.

As to working with DNA--not really my field. I've heard of a couple of things relating to this: this DNA scry ritual which I personally have never attempted, and this technique called bloodwalking, which I only learned of recently and with which I'm not familiar. I don't know how well it works yet.

Hope this helps a bit. Maybe someone else round here has better info.

Closed for Business Time

11:57 / 02.02.07

A question for you: Has anyone here any experience of the work and techniques of Felicitas Goodman of the Cuyamungue Institute? I read one of her books about 5 years ago (I think it was Where the spirits ride the wind...), and I was intrigued by her linkage of specific postures, repeated and repeatable stable encounters with specific entities, and her examination of the neurlogical and physiological states that accompany/cause/correlate/whatever with these experiences.

I wanna know because I'm hoping to drag my butt out of spiritual torpor, and this seems like a worthwhile avenue for a newbie. Plus it seems doable as solo work, which is where I want to start.

Thank you mucho, all.

13:06 / 02.02.07

You might find some interesting ideas about DNA and shamanism in Pinchbeck on Narby. Terence McKenna's the first guy who comes to mind with molecules and "vibrations" and ayahuasca, but I think it's Jeremy Narby who really did the DNA do.

Interview with Narby here.

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