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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

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15:52 / 19.01.07

I think free will is bigger than just thems You Serve Tea To and so should get its own thread.

We'll get the non deists weighing in a bit more as well methinks.

16:13 / 19.01.07

I am still trying to find out what offerings I am give to the Eumenides, as I found it is not customary to refer to them as Erinyes. I must be more careful.

Last night I burnt incense, but I am getting the feeling they are after meat. Should I burn some lamb, perhaps?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:14 / 19.01.07

No, Trix, I was addressing XK.

17:38 / 19.01.07

After the atheism thread I'm keeping well out of any free will debate.

Trouserian, thank you kindly, that does help a lot. I'm comparing and contrasted goddesses from different cultures and the different conceptions of identity and divinity are making it much more work than I realised. Of course.

Justrix- good luck with the offering to the Eumenides, maybe try milk and honey?

17:43 / 19.01.07

Yes, I realize now, Mordant. Thanks, though.

I am a little too focused on my immediate situation, as it is very demanding. My apologies.

17:51 / 19.01.07

After the atheism thread I'm keeping well out of any free will debate.

Good point. Maybe if we do stick it in the Gods' thread it will winnow out that sort of pissing contest? Still I'd like to have non aligned folks feel invited to contribute.

17:55 / 19.01.07

Sorry about the double post!

Quantum, can I ask why Milk and Honey? I recognize the general spiritual significance, but is there another reason, more specific to the Eumenides? Just so I can actually put some comprehension as to what I am suppose to be doing.

17:57 / 19.01.07

GHOST OF CLYTAEMNESTRA [addressing the sleeping chorus of kindly ones]
Ah, you may be fast asleep, but now
what use is sleeping? On account of you,
I alone among the dead lack honour.
The ghosts of those I killed revile me—
they never stop. I wander in disgrace.
They charge me with the most horrific crimes.
But I, too, suffered cruelty from those
most dear to me. And yet, although I died
at the hands of one who killed his mother,
no spirit is enraged on my behalf.
Look here—you see these slashes on my heart?
How did they get there? While it's asleep
the mind can see, but in the light of day
we have no vision of men's destiny.
You've licked up many of my offerings,
soothing milk and honey without wine.
I've given many sacrificial gifts
with fire in my hearth at solemn banquets,
in that night hour no god will ever share.
From the play by Aeschylus

I don't know how you'd burn soothing milk and honey without wine though, unless it was soothing *condensed* milk. Maybe the burnt meat on the side?

18:13 / 19.01.07

Oh, that is awesome, Quantum. I was using the wrong name to find information.

Maybe the burnt meat on the side?

I was thinking that too, to offer to Them by their proper names.

18:19 / 19.01.07

Their number is usually left indeterminate, though Virgil, probably working from an Alexandrian source, recognized three: Alecto ("unceasing," who appeared in Virgil's Aeneid), Megaera ("grudging"), and Tisiphone ("avenging murder").

Take care, eh?

18:24 / 19.01.07

To be honest, I'm not sure I would offer stuff to the Kindly Ones by Their proper names. As I understand it, that's considered not so much respectful as it is dangerous, hence the euphemism (quite literally) of "Eumenides".

--Ember--

18:40 / 19.01.07

...and 'Kindly Ones'. Eumenides is their kindly aspect.

I think it may have to be burnt to a crisp, whatever it is.

Why is that BTW 'trix?

18:43 / 19.01.07

Whoops, Ember is correct, my bad;
Many scholars believe that when they were originally referred to as the Eumenides it was not to reference their good sides but as a euphemism to avoid their wrath that would ensue from calling them by their true name.
The Erinyes might also be recognized as Semnai ("the venerable ones"), the Potniae ("the Awful Ones"), the Maniae ("the Madnesses") and the Praxidikae ("the Vengeful Ones").

20:23 / 19.01.07

Here! Silly me.

The sacrifices which were offered to them consisted of black sheep and nephalia, i. e. a drink of honey mixed with water. (Schol. l. c.; Paus. ii. 11. § 4; Aeschyl. Eum. 107.) Among the things sacred to them we hear of white turtledoves, and the narcissus. (Aelian, H. A. x. 33; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 87.)

I think I read this at 4 am and thought I read "blackened sheep". I guess I was a little hungry. There is that honey drink you mention, with water though. Apparently called nephalia.

Okay then. I have no idea why I had that notion so strongly.

20:26 / 19.01.07

Mrf. I'm extremely uncomfortable with the idea of offerring to the Eumenides at all, honestly, but maybe I'm being closed-minded.

--Ember--

07:47 / 20.01.07

Thanks for the input on Lho Ma, guys. I'm gonna just link my friend to this part of this thread, that's how useful it was.

Along the lines of this, I'm noticing a strange tendency recently that, since I've started focusing more explicitly on my spirituality (joining Barbelith has been part of this), I've had a significant number of friends ask me for assistance (or tell me situations that make me want to offer my assitance) in spiritual realms. I've never done any of this work for anyone else before (I tend to work in what might best be described as a very loose manner, very little focus on structure or ritual) and I'm a bit concerned about my ability to do helful, positive things rather than big smashing cudgel and dynamite things (if they were asking me for assistance with banishings, it'd be one thing, but they're doing things like trying to invoke dreams to explore possible spiritual paths).

I realize that this is less a question than a series of parenthetical bitchings riding on the coattails of a thank you, but if anyone has any input on a situation this vague, I'd appreciate it.

10:09 / 20.01.07

On the free will or not thing I might have got my head round it now, and don't think I have anything particularly helpful to write just now.

I realise people can get hooked into all kinds of unhealthy relationships with substances or people, why not also with deities? But then if you take into account the success of 12 step programmes, those can be overcome by relationship with a higher power. So I wonder if an unhealthy religious relationship could be overcome through a higher higher power, and I'm left with a model of Deity Top Trumps which is, how can I put this, surprisingly scriptural.

(And does have some bearing on the story of how I've been developing my own current religious practice: kindof by following a current of increasing joy, mirth, forgiveness, peace, freedom, hope, clarity, honesty, sanity, creativity, and compassion, upstream.)

11:34 / 20.01.07

Mrf. I'm extremely uncomfortable with the idea of offerring to the Eumenides at all, honestly, but maybe I'm being closed-minded.

Well, I would rather not argue with the Goddess who recommended I do that. I figure, I asked Her for help, She has been gracious enough to guide me. If She asks me to do something that I have no understanding of, then I am going to have to accept, that I thought She knows better than I, to begin with.

And, I must say, I put that honey and milk on the altar and the change is like night and day. The situation went from damnation in hell to spiritual enlightenment, almost immediately!

Thank you, Quants, for all your help!

12:34 / 20.01.07

The situation went from damnation in hell to spiritual enlightenment...

I should say spiritual awakening, rather than enlightenment.

03:01 / 22.01.07

Well, I would rather not argue with the Goddess who recommended I do that.

Ah! Understood.

--Ember--

15:37 / 22.01.07

do we have a thread discussing issues surrounding documenting ritual? I mean photography, webcams, video, audio, etc.
Specificly I'm curious about the implications of documenting ritual and how it changes the ritual itself.

15:51 / 22.01.07

XK, I'm not sure I'd have much to contribute, myself, but I'd be very interested to read a thread on that subject.

16:29 / 22.01.07

I don't think we have one but I'd be interested. Did you know that Maori rituals (IIRC) have been documented so much they now have a ritual place for the observer? Like, the moko-maker sits here, and the tattoo-ee sits there, and the anthropologist sits over there...

17:01 / 22.01.07

yeah that's the direction I'm after as well, Quants. However I'm curious about when there's a webcam in that spot, or a photographer.

Guess I should get off my ass and start a thread on it....

thanks for the feedback!

20:06 / 27.01.07

Does anyone know of the vudu loa which are analagous to the concepts of creativity and communication?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:34 / 27.01.07

Not really, although someone round here is bound ot be able to help you. But I'm curious as to why you want to know.

08:34 / 28.01.07

Me and a friend have really got into the vodoo gnostic workbook and in the past we've done alot of work with dionysus and hermes and i think we would be able to transfer over alot of what we did if we had the specifications that the voodoo loa represent.
But it's ok we found em', i got off my ass and had a look.
Thanks anyway.

08:51 / 28.01.07

Incase anyone was wondering:
Legba for hermes.
What i was looking for in dionysus i found in: Papa Gehede and Ti Malice.

Captain Jack Sparrow is still the best trickster god of all time.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:09 / 28.01.07

Me and a friend have really got into the vodoo gnostic workbook

Oh dear.

Captain Jack Sparrow is still the best trickster god of all time.

Oh... dear.

12:57 / 28.01.07

I don't say 'oh dear' every time you talk about flying about the spirits realms with loki do i?

13:12 / 28.01.07

Jack's not a god though, which would be a problem.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:18 / 28.01.07

If you want to challenge any aspect of my practice, sn00p, you are free to do so--in fact I encourage it. Things will go better if you can provide critique that doesn't consist of "Gods aren't real" and isn't in allcaps. Just a friendly suggestion.

To unpack "Oh dear" a little: First off, the VGW has a reputation around these parts for being an overwritten and largely unnecessary work. I don't say that you couldn't get something out of it; I would however suggest that a teenaged mage whose practice as he outlined it last year seemed to consist largely or entirely of charging sigils would be better off starting somewhere else.

Second off: Whilst wholeheartedly behind the concept of magic employing pop-cultural entities, I dispute the idea that a pop-cultural figure invented a few years back is ever going to pack the same wallop as a God with millenia of legend and worship behind Him. This is a recurring topic around these parts and we've had some interesting discussions on the subject. If you like, I can dig you up some links.

Thirdly, you seem to be implying--with your talk of exchanging Hermes for Papa Ghede and Ti Malice--that Gods are neat and interchangable, like the facia of a mobile phone. Hermes doesn't go with your stuff? Just snap Him off and clip a Lwa on instead. YMMV, of course, but I have not found this to be the case. Again, this is a recurring topic.

13:39 / 28.01.07

I'm not playing mordant.
I came here for a little help, i was helped alot in PM by a member, i'm very gratefull for that.
I just don't see why i have to put up with potshots when i opt for "If i don't have anything nice to say..." philosphy with you.
You know what you and i call magic is only similar samanticaly, i think you pigeon hole me and judge me when you really don't know anything about me. Which isn't very enlightened magician/moderator behaviour anyway.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:56 / 28.01.07

Well that's good, because I'm not playing either. I'm flagging what I see as areas of possible concern in your practice as you have outlined it, which is kind of what I do. I'm not attacking you. I would likely have been a bit nicer about it if it weren't for the way you've chosen to interact with the board previously, but them's the breaks.

This is a discussion board. When people post stuff here, it is reasonable to assume that they don't mind it being discussed. You posted stuff here. It is being discussed.

I realise that your magical practice operates from a nontheistic perspective and that's fine by me. You'll find that there are a fair few nontheistic practitioners around here. I myself maintained a perfectly functional magical practice for the best part of a decade without employing any Gods at all, not even as archtypes or "godforms." What matters to me in respect of the Temple is not whether people share my spiritual beliefs or not, it's the likely effectiveness or otherwise of their magical practice, if they have one, and their contribution to this forum. That's it.

14:15 / 28.01.07

I get that it is a discussion forum, but the thread is entitled:

Stupid Magick, Religion and spirituality questions.

"so that people who have questions relating to magick and spirituality will have a convenient and non-intimidating place to get some answers"

It's not called lets discuss sn00ps life. I feel quite intimidated that i'm going to be the subject of psychological abuse by criticism of how i do my practice by someone who assumes they know better than i do. Which i did not inivite. My question wasn't about how i do magic, if you're really concerned about my practice then throw in the name of some loa/lwa/"'god'" you think would be more effective.

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