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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

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14:04 / 17.02.07

I have a simple question, I think:

What are the chances of pulling the same three cards, two days in a row after shuffling and selecting cards out randomly?

And a not so simple question:

Should I being paying closer attention to what these three cards are trying to indicate or am I making a big deal out of it? (Oh terrible pun!)

14:32 / 17.02.07

Tarot cards or playing cards? I'm not sure of the maths but I know theres less chance of pulling the same three cards in a row from a bigger amount of cards.

Assuming tarot;
I think; 1 in 72x72x72 gives the chance of pulling one card three times in a row out of a tarot deck...
so 1 chance in 373248
of just pulling 1 card 3 times in a row. So three cards... umm... (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

Its worth checking to see if there are any physical differences in the cards, like if they're slightly bent which makes them easier to pull and more noticable, otherwise I'd start paying more attention to what they're saying if I were you, its probably important somehow.

Even if theres no outside influences, meditating/musing on the cards could allow your brain to point to things you need to look at, so even if it is chance, it could still be worth it.

14:53 / 17.02.07

No, your forgetting that after each card is removed their would be one less card in the deck. So it would be 72*71*70. But still fairly huge.

However, that assumes your shuffling them for hours and hours and hours using a perfectly randomising motion. Which you are probably not. If you just did a basic overhand shuffle (which most people do) then the card probably won't have changed order that much. A lot of card tricks rely on the fact that shuffling is very unlikely to seperate groups of cards. If we assume that your group of cards hasn't been split up (which isn't that big an assumption, but does make my maths somewhat wrong) then the chances of the first card of your trio being the top card of the deck is 1 in 72.

So, the answer is somewhere between 1 in 72 and 1 in (72*71*70) which is a fairly wide range. If you are using overhand shuffle (without checking to see if the cards are always splitting in the same placs) then it is somewhere closer to 1 in 72.

14:54 / 17.02.07

Actually, there's a 1 / (number of cards in the deck) chance of pulling any specific card when you go to draw, so assuming you're assembling a hand of three the later cards become progressivly more likly. This is because preceeding draws have no impact on later draws; they are discrete events (except insofar as any damage to the card actually makes their drawing liklier).

14:56 / 17.02.07

If it's Tarot (78 cards) the chance of drawing three particular cards in the same order is 1/78x1/77x1/76. Call it 0.13 cubed, =0.0000022, equivalent to a one in five hundred thousand chance if my maths is correct. If they're in any order, the chances are 3/78 cubed or so, which is .038 cubed (roughly 4% of each, getting all 3 = 4% of 4% of 4%, =0.0055%) which is one in thirty-six thousand.

Short answer- two in a million, or twenty-seven in a million if they're in any order.

15:02 / 17.02.07

Doi!

78 cards in a tarot deck. I knew that.

*blushes* Ta Quantum.

I was working on the assumption that you can only draw the same card a second time if you shuffle it back into the deck... so 78, pick one, put it back, 78... etc.
But like I say, maths is not my strong point.

15:12 / 17.02.07

It is the Tarot deck, Haloquin. Sometimes, reading for oneself can be a bit futile. My current deck is about 10 years old. It is tattered in places, and I know what those places are. Certain cards have been bitten by puppies and babies and other people have trouble shuffling the deck, (I don't).

When I picked these cards, both times (it was 3 cards 2 draws), it was from a spread deck, with my left hand, and my eyes either closed, or fixed elsewhere. These three cards are in excellent condition too, so I don't think I am doing this through subconsciously, or consciously recognizing them.

Anyway, the odds are not likely, I suppose, and I should pay attention.

The three cards are: Ace of Disks, The Star, Three of Disks

In that order, if anyone would just like to add something. I think I get it, but beyond the fact that I have a ton of work to do and I am properly inspired to do it, (even if I am procrastinating and sluggish), I am not getting much else. Yet another friendly kick in the pants, me thinks!

15:32 / 17.02.07

Gee Quants, my head spins looking at your post. Thank you though. It does seem to have some gravity to it when you put it that way. I have no way of even checking what you wrote, so I am going to have to trust you on the numbers. Between 2 and 27 in a million? Yeah, I think I should pay attention.

Hey Haloquin, until Quantum mentioned it, nobody else caught it either! No worries!

16:05 / 17.02.07

Bearing in mind the whole shuffling thing, it still is closer to one in seventy eight though isn't it?

16:41 / 17.02.07

So, drawing the first card is 1/78 chance of being picked and so on, but doing that for three cards twice, is a chance between 2 and 27 in a million? Or am I way off in my understanding?

Does anyone else think these odds are relevant to the urgency of what is indicated? I am inclined to think so, but I am curious about what others think.

Make me Uncomfortable

16:20 / 18.02.07

You've drawn three cards of interest. A while later, you draw out three more in a specific order.

Drawing the same 1st card is prob. 1/78. You then have 77 cards left to pick from. Drawing the same second card AFTER drawing that same first card is thus 1/(78x77) ; drawing the same third card after these two events is thus 1/ (78x77x76) = 1/456,456

If you don't care about the order, there are 6 possible orders that you could draw those three cards out of the deck with (ABC, ACB, BAC, BCA, CAB, CBA), so your probability is now 6/456,456, or 1/76,076.

Another way of say that is your odds are 76,075 to 1 against picking those three cards.

This is well above your odds of getting struck by lightning (576,000 to 1).
This is close to the odds of dating a supermodel (88,000 to 1).
This is well below your odds of being murdered (18,000 to 1).
(odds are from here)

17:33 / 18.02.07

Justrix said they were the same order (nice cards by the way 'trix, sounds like encouragement to me- the star!) so here's an easy way to work it out;

There's a one in 78 chance of drawing the ace of discs. Then, there's a 1/77 chance of getting the star next, so it's one in a (78 times 77) chance to get both in that order. Then it's a 1/76 chance of getting the three, making the chance of getting that spread 1 in (78x77x76) =45,6456.

My math *was* bad, it's just over a twenty in a million chance, not two. If you had several readings in that time you could multiply that chance by a few, so for example if you had five readings in total the chance of getting the same again in that time would be one in a hundred thousand.

Definitely pay attention.

18:06 / 18.02.07

But, but, but!
All of this math is assuming that the cards are in a perfectly random order after each shuffle. Which they most likely wouldn't be. There is a pretty high chance that those three cards, in that exact order, will not have been seperated at any point between the two deals. If you are doing just a basic overhand shuffle, which most people are, then it is highly likely that those three cards will be together anyway.
In that case, to have those cards arrive in the same order you would just need for the first card of the trio to also be the first card of the deck, which would be a chance of 1 in 78.

19:03 / 18.02.07

assuming that the cards are in a perfectly random orde

Well yes. It's also assuming the fall of the cards is entirely random , which I'm not sure is the case. You could argue that overhand shuffle doesn't disturb the order of the deck enough, so that the most likely thing is that the clump of three cards remained in the deck and happened by chance to be at the top of the deck after 'trix shuffled it the second time and thus came up in the same order. But how do you factor fate or destiny into that? Or magic? I think the chances of it happening are slim enough that it provides a significant message, and the exact probability is a pretty arbitrary number. The purpose of divination is (among other things) to get a message, and if that message is repeated it would seem to indicate that it's important.

21:18 / 18.02.07

Also assuming that Justrix picked the cards from the same part of the deck, e.g. cutting and picking the top 3 cards... I seem to recall hir saying ze fanned them out and picked them randomly.

But I agree with Quantum (I think it was you)... the odds are enough either way; no such thing as coincidences!

22:18 / 18.02.07

Oops, missed the part about the spread deck. Ignore me.
Justrix, that is crazy large maths.

06:49 / 20.02.07

Mork's brother used some Ace of Disks imagery as part of the cover art for the band's new album:

And it keeps coming up in all sorts of other places recently. Hmmmm.....

11:52 / 20.02.07

Hmmmm... The Ace of Pentacles is the root of the power of Earth (work, nature, money, physical reality, home, stable relationships, routine activities). When it shows up in a reading, it signifies security and abundance. So, nice to have that symbolism following you around. Where else have you seen it? Have you had recent concerns related to anything Earthy?

11:57 / 20.02.07

Can also imply new opportunities to do with the same.

12:11 / 20.02.07

Mono- you will become rich and famous through the band, obvs. (Also Lea Valley will flood and the birds will take over the whole of Tottenham and Walthamstow and form an egalitarian republic, although that's nothing to do with your success, it's just inevitably going to happen)

13:42 / 20.02.07

Cool artwork, Mono. Ace of disks keeps coming up for me too, apparently. Although, the set of three hasn't come up again. It seems significant however, and I am taking the hint.

So, question along the lines of stupid, (most likely), and in the spirit of inspiration: What does Barbelith think of Ken Wilbur's work? I found a thread here, but the "Wilbur" is never referred to by his first name, in the thread. I think it is Ken Wilbur, but I am not sure.

Thank you, btw, to those who helped with my tarot question, especially Quants.

Also, on a funny note, I thought I would try my luck, since the odds seemed to be in my favour, and I bought a scratch and win type lottery ticket. I rarely indulge in this, maybe less than once a year, on average. I won my money back and I laughed because it felt like the Universe wagging a finger at me, telling me that this wasn't the way to go if I want results. I thought it cute that the Universe gave me my money back though!

Must get back to work!

17:43 / 23.02.07

So, in the TV series Lost, the Dharma project symbol has eight hexagrams round the edge;

What do they mean?

20:24 / 23.02.07

They're the symbol of bagua, but outside of that I don't really konw what that means, and suspect calling Eggs in on this would be best, as I believe its the root of his m'art (Baguazhang).

Would you mind, Justrix, if I asked why you were so concerned about the probability of yr tarot draw? I assume you use the tarot frequently, and so believe that what you draw may have something to do with pure chance. Or do you not? I've been trying to get snark out of this question for a while, because I'd like to hear people talk about their experiences, so sorry if it still sounds rude (it was never meant to). (I don't really know etiquete).

21:30 / 23.02.07

You are correct, pin, not in that I would be best, but that they are indeedy the basic forms - the eight palms - in Ba Gua. Actually, their use in Ba Gua is quite telling. As I understand it, the eight trigrams are a conceptual system that has been around so long in China, that many different areas have been mapped into them, martial arts being just one. In a sense, I couldn't possible list all the different associations - groups of eight - that have been created and drawn up through Chinese history. They are eight basic categories into which everything can be mapped, and their are numrous maps of their associations and inter-relationship for a variety of different purposes - divination systems, astrology, martial arts forms, divisions of the year, groups of animals, diseases etc etc.
to name but a few. A simple explanation won't catch all of the associations or the variety of different systems of thought in which they are applied. But I'll give one anyway!

One of the famous usages is, of course, in the I Ching. The trigrams - 8 x 8 = 64 are paired to form the 64 hexagrams. Some of the first "sets" a Yijing dabbler will first encounter are the division into 8 members of family (Father, Mother, Eldest /Middle/Youngest Sons & Daughters) and 8 different natural phemomena.

Quickly, these are:

Qian: Father. Heaven/sky. "The Creative".

Kun: Mother. The Earth. "The Receptive".

Zhen: Eldest son. Thunder. "The Arousing".

Xun: Eldest Daughter. Wind/Wood. "The Penetrating".

Kan: Middle Son. Water. "The Abysmal".

Li: Middle Daugher. Fire. "The Clinging".

Ken: Youngest Son. Mountain. "Keeping Still".

Xui: Youngest Daughter. Lake. "The Joyous".

Hope that helps. The qualities in speechmarks are the more abstract qualities taken from Wilhelm's I Ching.

Their use in martial arts brings out an aspect of the I Ching, and something that differentiates "Chinese thought" (not that I can really claim to understand such a thing, thus the scare quotes) from Western - you can see the trigrams more as positions of change, rather than *things* (elements in themselves). Positions through which any given phenomena might flow. Thus the name - I Ching "Book of Changes" - and the fluidity of Ba Gua.

21:32 / 23.02.07

A practical note might add something here - the eight qualities have been helpful for understanding divinations, and getting my head (and body) round the "feel" of some moves in Ba Gua.

21:36 / 23.02.07

... obviously, Mountain over Mountain might mean "stay the fuck where you are" etc etc.

And, I've just found out, courtesy of sethblog, the next Wu Tang album is going to be called 8 Diagrams. It don't get realer than that, kids.

17:30 / 24.02.07

Would you mind, Justrix, if I asked why you were so concerned about the probability of yr tarot draw? I assume you use the tarot frequently, and so believe that what you draw may have something to do with pure chance. Or do you not? I've been trying to get snark out of this question for a while, because I'd like to hear people talk about their experiences, so sorry if it still sounds rude (it was never meant to). (I don't really know etiquete).

Snark? I don't see any, pin. Do you feel snarky? Good job, anyway!

I am not certain I understand your question, though. What is "pure chance"? - no snark intended there, either. I suppose that may answer your question as to whether I believe in it or not, but that may depend on whether I use another term to identify the same point. Perhaps, luck? or a one-off?

08:12 / 25.02.07

I guess luck would be a better term. I was just wondering why it was you seemed to doubt the reading you got. Do you, and other people who use divination here, and I guess that there are some often take results with... with a pinch of salt, I guess. Do you normally factor in an element of chance? If so, why?

10:35 / 25.02.07

Also, Eggs, what drew you to Ba Gua? Were you looking at a variety of arts and chose that one, or were you drawn to Ba Gua specifically?

What appealed to you more then others, if the first, or more generally why if the latter?

12:57 / 25.02.07

Actually, it was Hsing I I was drawn to first. My reasons for that were conversations with a friend of mine. I was looking for a way "in" to the esoteric side of the I Ching, something that connected it to the body, and he shared with me some of his (very interesting) experiences with Hsing I, which connected these two interests. I'd also wanted to take up a physical discipline for a while. Probably would have done Yoga if I hadn't found Hsing I.

Ba Gua came into it as my instructor teaches both arts, and the complement each other very well. Hsing I is simple and has an aggressive bluntness to it, which I like, and Ba Gua has a insane complexity to it, which is also fun (everyone I've ever met who's done Ba Gua has been a bit mad, it tends to attract the eccentric). Both arts are related to Tai Chi, the three are often refered to as "sister" arts though Tai Chi is the only one that's achieved any real visibility in the West.

Each art has a different characteristic style of movement that tells you something about it. Tai Chi "rolls" with an aggressor's energy, Ba Gua evades (the characteristic Ba Gua training move is walking in a circle round an imaginary opponent, who's in the centre), and Hsing I goes in a direct straight line and batters the fuck out of them! I like this quality a lot!

The evasiveness combined with directness makes a nice package. My instrutor used to teach Tai Chi, but doesn't anymore. I wouldn't diss it, I think it's a wonderful art, but I like doing something with a bit of aggression to it. Obviously, Tai Chi can get taught like this - one can learn how to apply the applications that are "rehearsed" slowly at full speed - but it's not that common.

I've also got quite interested in the works of
Geoff Thompson and other related instructors in recent years. These "reality based" guys are interesting to read as they cut away at the fantasies of a lot of martial artists. I haven't trained much in this stuff though, but I've not training solely for self-defence.

There's a lot more in this thread.

Make me Uncomfortable

02:44 / 26.02.07

What are your thoughts on art and magic?

From my own practice as an art student, I know that there is a definite state of mind that art practice and magic practice share, but if anything, magic seems for me like another medium for art (so catagories of art practice might be: drawing, painting, video, ritual) and not the other way around- my art is not particularly magical (I mean, its personally powerful, but not in a synchronicity and astral visions kind of way), but my magic is certainly artistic and creative.

Any thoughts? Are any of you artists as well, and if you are (or even if you arn't) how do you incorporate the two, or do you?

08:57 / 26.02.07

Wow, that's worth it's own thread.

I have often heard Inspiration equated to altered conciousness and/or a major category of Contact with the Divine. I tend to agree with that.

Also, art generally serves one (or both) of two purposes: Creation of Beauty, Communication of Content. Both of these have tremendous magical and spiritual potential.

--Ember--

Unconditional Love

09:33 / 26.02.07

Tai chi when taught as self defence slow and fast is particularly nasty, the open hand is similar to tiger claw kung fu, one of the opening movements of chen style is a block and strike, the open hand goes in to gouge eyes rip nostrils, cheeks and ears depending on where the blow catches, its basically a way to rip the soft parts of the face away, one of my tai chi instructors was more intrested in body mechanics and fighting applications. The slow movements were just taught as practice, several people left his classes because of his style, but he is probably the best tai chi instructor i have had so far.

My experience of alot of chinese martial arts has taught me that going for soft parts of the flesh and twisting and pulling and generally trying to rip off parts of people is far more effective than say blunt punching kicking and throwing, ripping at the muscle, sensory organs and fat debilitates really quickly. Tiger claw is is especially good for people with longish nails (not too long). Ive also found the tiger claw shape as a good way for anchoring sekhmet into a mudra.

Also noticed that some of the techniques of eriksonian hypnosis, arm raising and lowering in certain manners and softstyles of martial arts have some elements in common, a kind of bodily hypnosis, which i am thinking could be used to programme mythic structures or other self created stories into posture.

Unconditional Love

10:03 / 26.02.07

Another really good example of a ripping move is monkey grabs the grapes.

13:16 / 26.02.07

The Art/Magic thread has begun.

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