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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
10:13 / 08.01.07
If I wanted to communicate with entities beyond humanity do I need to buy into the historical mythologies of those entities?

Treat them like they are real people, with the respect and politeness that you would afford to real human beings, and you won't go far wrong.

If I wanted to communicate with you, Elijah, do I need to buy into your personal history and self-mythology in order to do so? To some extent, I probably do, as its an intrinsic part of what you are about, where you have come from, and how you interact with the world. In order to really get to know you, I have to get to know your personal story as you see it. This is probably the best way to think about the historical mythologies of deities, I reckon. It's their story, and within that story are clues to their nature, just as - within your story - there are clues to your nature. Does that make sense?

I don't think that any branch of real magic requires Faith with a capital F. I don't believe in anything but what I've personally experienced for myself and what I can reasonably extrapolate based on those experiences. Faith in a creation story doesn't really need to come into it. For instance, you don't give offerings to the Lwa because they made the world (according to the gospel of an ancient text or a mythology), you give offerings to them because they are personifications of various aspects of reality. By building a healthy, close relationship with one of the Lwa - accomplished by doing things like buying them drinks, cooking them dinner, throwing little celebrations for them - you build a healthy, close relationship with the aspect of your existence that they are concerned with. You strengthen their Mystery within your life. Other pantheons tend to operate on similar lines. You don't make devotional service for them because of what they have allegedly done for you (like worshiping Christ because you are told He died for your sins), you make devotional service because of what they are and by doing so you begin to develop a deeper understanding of their Mystery and how it weaves through your life.

Hope some of that is useful.
 
 
electric monk
15:04 / 08.01.07
Bear with me while I throw some backstory at y'all. Promise I'll come to the question eventually.

On New Year's Day, Wifey and I conducted a house purification and I did a house protection ritual immediately after. The protection ritual was pretty simple. Starting at out front door I walked a deosil path around our property, fanning the smoke of white sage stick with white feather while chanting a chant of protection I'd written.

On the first time around, walking thru the backyard, I saw a black snake kill and eat a small lizard. I was about 3 feet from the action and paused to watch, taking it for some kind of sign. On the second time around, I saw the snake again. It's head was buried in one of the low-lying plants along the back wall of our yard. Two-thirds of the snake's body was outside the plant. Maybe it was eating. Maybe it was resting. All I know is that it was very still. On the third time around, I almost stepped on the bugger. It'd come out onto the lawn and stood right in my path. I must have come just inches from it, cuz all of a sudden it's slithering away from my feet and back into the brush. I finished the ritual and looked up the snake in our field guide. Turned out to be a racer snake. Not poisonous, not a constrictor, but a very aggressive snake that bites and holds. I felt like I'd dodged a bit of a bullet and took it as a sign of success for the protection spell.

So that was Monday. On Saturday morning the lawn crew came through our neighborhood to cut the lawn and trim the bushes. As Wifey and I enjoy our coffee and 'lil monk enjoys his cartoons, the man with the leaf blower walks by outside, blows some grass and and debris onto the patio... and then blows the snake, dead, onto the patio in plain sight of everyone. The back third of it was broken and chopped and its innards were spilling out. Run over by a big industrial riding mower. Quite dead, red eyes open and blank. I was immediately certain it was the same snake from New Year's Day. Same markings, same length. My heart broke for it. It had obviously tried to get away, only to get its butt caught in huge, whirling blades.

So now I'm concerned. I'd initially taken the snake's appearance during my ritual as a good sign, an indicator of wisdom, guardianship, and creativity. Now the deliverer of that sign is rotting in the bottom of my garbage can. This can't be good. I don't feel like it's very good. Am I overreacting? Is this a bad omen? Should I redo my protection ritual?

Happy to provide more info if it helps. As is pretty obvious, I'm not sure at this point what's significant and what's not.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:19 / 08.01.07
You do a protection ritual. A lizard wanders onto your patch and gets eaten by a snake, the snake wanders onto your patch - almost biting you - and gets torn up by a lawnmower. Sounds like your protection ritual is working just fine to me.
 
 
Ticker
15:31 / 08.01.07
first thing is I personally would place the snake back in the grass or other resting spot besides the garbage can. The trash is not the best place for a mythic actor to end up in.....A proper sendoff will make you feel better for acknowledging the snake's role.

To track backwards a bit, even if you had not connected the snake to a sacred conext having its gutted self tossed up would have been disturbing. Having involved it symbolically in your mythos you now have an array of ways to interpret its demise. Perhaps it is a tiny sacrifice on behalf of your household, perhaps it was an omen of taking greater care of the things which are sacred to you. If it happened to me I might take it to mean I should lend greater care to the treatment of the beings I share my home with. I might see it as the protection spell removing a semi dangerous to my household critter.

That said, death happens whether it be by mower or predator. You felt a connection to the being and the being passed on. How do you allow the death to affect you? Is it scary or is it a gentle reminder of the preciousness of the moment? Is it a chance for you to honor the being in its own right?

I'd say your reaction is an indicator that your daily 'normal' life and your magical/sacred life are integrating on a deeper level and the segregation is blurring. You may find you have to bring your ritual perspective to understand more everyday experiences. This is particularly hard in a culture where being concerned about such things is considered crazy.

That said, I think you are the only one who can properly interpret the meaning for yourself and your household.
 
 
electric monk
21:07 / 08.01.07
You do a protection ritual. A lizard wanders onto your patch and gets eaten by a snake, the snake wanders onto your patch - almost biting you - and gets torn up by a lawnmower. Sounds like your protection ritual is working just fine to me.

Yeah, when you put it like that, it does sound like it worked. That makes a lot of sense to me.

The trash is not the best place for a mythic actor to end up in.....A proper sendoff will make you feel better for acknowledging the snake's role.

Agreed. The snake's at the bottom of a bag filled with rotting oranges (insult and injury!), so it's going to be an ugly job getting it a burial. But it would make me feel better, and I do feel I owe it something. I'll find a nice place for it in the yard.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:23 / 08.01.07
For some reason I want to tell you to bury it with an egg. I mean, I know snakes lay eggs and that some species eat eggs, so I guess it makes a kind of twisted sense.

I guess you could also make a donation to a snake charity.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:22 / 09.01.07
For some reason I want to tell you to bury it with an egg.

That also correlates, for what it's worth, with Damballa and the World Egg.

--Ember--
 
 
electric monk
11:54 / 09.01.07
bury it with an egg

I almost did exactly that. I have a half-an-eggshell resting in a shot glass inside our altar, and saw it as I was collecting the necessaries for the burial. Didn't think it appropriate to put a bird eggshell in with the snake in the end tho. Too fighty. But I did offer a small bell, which I rang during the processional to the backyard and just before I started shoveling the dirt on.

The snake is now in a nice resting place near a row of small bushes. The bushes will grow over the area and offer the same environment to it in death that it would have enjoyed in life. Burying the snake gave me a definite sense of closure, and felt like the absolute right thing to do.
 
 
electric monk
11:54 / 09.01.07
BTW: Thanks, all, for your help and suggestions. This has been very enlightening.
 
 
Ticker
15:20 / 09.01.07
it appears we're a sentimental lot...

though seriously sometimes we just need permission and validation to follow our instincts.
 
 
Dubtastic
23:33 / 13.01.07
Would someone point me towards threads or other links on patron relationships, please
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:30 / 14.01.07
Certainly.

Choose your deity vs. divine channeling is the most specific recent thread on the topic, I think. These threads also touch on the subject:

Invited possession/horsing and channeling/divine inspiration

Odin
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:36 / 14.01.07
...and of course I now remember that you'd already read and contributed to the thread on patrons. Gah.

We also got into relationships with Deities over in the Sexism in Magic thread.
 
 
Unconditional Love
02:23 / 15.01.07
Emanuel Swedenborg, can anybody suggest a good book about him or by him, from my readings around spiritualism i understand he had a big influence on its development and the poetry of Blake and others. Anybody have experience with this version of Christianity putting it into practice or spiritualism for matter.

Anyone?
 
 
crimson
04:03 / 15.01.07
my friend gave me his necklace, thors hammer, for luck. he wears it all the time and so I accepted it even though Ive been having some light communication, I think, with Odin. So I had it with me at an interview I was at the next day but didnt get the place. That same day, which was the day after the interview I felt this pain in my left eye for the whole evening and felt maybe it was some kind of communication from Odin. I was speaking to my friend and asked him about Thors hammer, what it was about etc and he revealed to me that the hammer had brought him bad luck!!! so he had given it to me so that it would bring me good luck or something. I gave him the necklace back the next day saying that Thors not someone I identify with and I didnt want his bad luck necklace!!

Thing I want to know is if this would offend Thor, should I care about that? Also, I dont know about my relationship with Odin yet and this kind of ownership feels like hes pushing it a bit, can I do something to have a more formal relationship? Also, is it normal that Odin should make someones eye hurt? All these questions...!
 
 
EmberLeo
06:21 / 15.01.07
Thing I want to know is if this would offend Thor, should I care about that?

If it would, yeah, you might want to care about that. However, I doubt it would offend Thor terribly. He's not all that easy to offend, and if you're honestly saying, "Look, this isn't my path." then so be it. Thor has an appreciation for blunt honesty.

Now, if you said "Thor sucks, I refuse to associate with Him" and then expected to get along with Odin after that, I'd be a bit surprised. But if all you said was, "I don't want your bad luck, and Thor isn't my path, so I cannot wear this necklace." I suspect you're fine.

I dont know about my relationship with Odin yet and this kind of ownership feels like hes pushing it a bit, can I do something to have a more formal relationship?

You certainly can. But I'm not clear on what you mean by "formal relationship" if you think "ownership feels like he's pushing it".

Also, is it normal that Odin should make someones eye hurt?

I don't know if it's normal (in the sense of happening to a majority of people in your position), but I've certainly met more than one of Odin's folks who have problems like that, so it's definitely not weird.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
06:24 / 15.01.07
But I'm not clear on what you mean by "formal relationship" if you think "ownership feels like he's pushing it".

That was unclear of me: There are many different models for a formalized relationship. I wouldn't call all, or even many of them "ownership". But I'm not sure if formalizing your relationship with Odin would move you further away from ownership than you currently are, which is what it sounded like you were asking.

So if you're more clear on what you do and don't want right now, that would help.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:51 / 15.01.07
I'd be surprised at a Mjollnir pendant bringing anyone bad luck. Thor is a particularly approachable Deity IME, and well-disposed to humans generally. I guess if you were very into doing the kinds of things that Thor might disapprove of--oppressing those weaker than yourself and so on--then wearing His symbol might be a Bad Idea, but otherwise go for it. (The same advice does not apply to Odinic symbols, especially the Valknut, which should be worn with caution if at all.)

I also don't think you're likely to have offended the Big Guy by telling Him that you don't feel His path is the right one for you. As Emberleo has pointed out, He'd probably appreciate bluntness. I don't think that the fact you're not specifically dedicating yourself to Thor should necessarily stop you from wearing the hammer either. I'm a devotee of Loki, and I wear one.

I'd also suggest that if you're planning on forming a long-term association with the Old Man, getting Thor onside as well is not a bad idea. Odin tends to make things pretty wild in your life and Thor can help you stay grounded, stay in touch with the 'mundane' things that can so easily slip away from you when you're working with the crazy, stormy types.

The eye thing: occupational hazard, mate. Get used to it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:52 / 15.01.07
PS: if you friend is still worried, he should take the Mjollnir dangle and bury it in the earth for 9 days. This will likely get rid of any foo icks and will potentise the symbol.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:02 / 15.01.07
PPS: get better friends, ones who don't deliberately give you their unlucky jewellery.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:33 / 15.01.07
Oh, that's a good point to clarify: Many Heathens consider the Thor's Hammer symbol to be a general symbol of being Heathen or Asatru, rather than that it indicates a relationship with Thor specifically. This is because Thor is really a god of the People, a god of community. If you are to become a part of that pantheon's community, it's not inappropriate for you to wear a Thor's Hammer pendant. You may simply wish to choose your own, and to be very clear with yourself, and with Thor (who is not, in my experience, presumptuous in this area) as to what you do and don't mean by it.

The other idea that comes to my mind is if the fellow who gave you the necklace found the pendant to be incompatible with his luck. If I had, for example, a Mah Jong necklace that screwed with my luck, I might give it to somebody whose luck ran along lines more compatible with the cultural philosophy behind Mah Jong. It's not that Mah Jong is unluck - quite the opposite. It's that my luck doesn't work the same way.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:14 / 15.01.07
Yah, the Big Guy's not one of the aggressive recruiters, unlike some I could mention. (I wonder why that is?)
 
 
EmberLeo
10:50 / 15.01.07
I think He just doesn't think that way, really.

I mean, think about how families work? Sure, new people are born, and folks get married. But do you really go out and recruit?

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
22:11 / 16.01.07
Do we have a Dabbler's Corner sort of thread for the shallow end of the magic pool? For discussion wherein folks are sticking toes in the subject but are admitly not well versed or 24x7 practitioners? Sort of like this thread but less focused on asking questions and just sort of floatation device friendly? Also where some silliness/levity/satire general playfulness can be encouraged? I'm thinking posters to it would bring their intent and a willingness to learn but we cut them slack for being unsure and not yet absolutely committed....
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:13 / 16.01.07
The egyptian Ogdoad system is something i have started to use in some of my ritual related to Heru em anpu, according to theosophy a wisdom keeper of the sexual and earth based mysteries, i dont really have alot of reference other than theosophists so i am having to work on this from my observations and the effects of ritual and dream.

I am using the elements that are of the formless nature from the ogdoad to bring the various characters of Anpu (anubis) alive within my own visualisation and dreaming, its something that i have never tried before, mostly using formed elements from western/indian or chinese systems, i wonder if anybody else has tryed to employ these formless elements in working, please lend a hand as this is very new territory for me.

Its my supposition so far that these unbalanced elements are what are employed to create new beginnings, awakening new elements creating transformation, because they are embodied in primal forms frog/snake i see them as representing elements of the reptile brain, very primal elements relating to creation at a physiological as well as mythological level of personality.

Anubis sometimes called the black and gold god or the royal child embodies two concepts as one process, the black embalmed body, death, also the fertile soil of the nile which was black in colour and the the golden rays of a new awakening, as a figure he appears to include elements of alchemy and shamanism, being the director of the secret rites that were given to the pharaoh during the sed festival, to renew the power of sovereignty, also appearing as the awakener to the Duat (otherworld).

As Wepwawet the opener of ways, another important part of the sed festival, his character is embodied as a warrior opening the road to victory and power(these figures are sometimes considered separate).

That aside i wouldn't mind hearing any accounts of people working with formless or primal elements in there practice, perhaps not as neat elemental distinctions, just magical uses of formlessness or states there of to create desired forms. I am not after techniques but something akin to formless awareness. Perception from recollection and the process of self formation from a formless state.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:14 / 16.01.07
I like the idea. Would this also be a place for folks who are dabbling in a different kind of magic, where they are deeply committed elsewhere entirely? Like my mostly-ignorant surface-level interest in the Kabalalistic Tree of Life? Or should that be something else?

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:16 / 16.01.07
Yeah we do. I'm still not 100% convinced that we really needed one since the postulated hordes of newbie mages who were gagging to be heard but were too intimidated by teh meen regulars to post in any other of the threads (like, say, this one) never actually materialised, but there you go.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:43 / 16.01.07
Oooh! In the manner of the Tarot and Rune index threads, is there a set of Kaballa Sephirot threads that I could peruse?

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
22:48 / 16.01.07
Thanks MC. One of them there non hardcore folk PM'd me about a place to post and I recalled something of the sort but why my searches didn't find it is beyond me....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:08 / 16.01.07
If you usd the built in search it didn't work because it is broke.
 
 
electric monk
23:19 / 16.01.07
Right here, Ember.
 
 
EmberLeo
23:37 / 16.01.07
Thank you Monk, that's exactly what I wanted to find.

--Ember--
 
 
grant
01:41 / 17.01.07
(pssst! that stuff is also cross-indexed on the wiki!)
 
 
Ticker
12:37 / 17.01.07
If you usd the built in search it didn't work because it is broke.

DOH!!!
otay thank ye!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:49 / 17.01.07
Oh, I menat to come back to my question earlier in the thread, as to why being a Valkyrie might be proscribed by law when the Valkyries are generally understood to be legendary figures. Turns out that there is a reference in some ancient ballads to "waelceasig," women who engaged in the practice of eating some of thier slain lovers' flesh after he'd fallen on the battlefield. This ritual seems to have been undertaken to help guarantee the dead man a pleasant afterlife.

So there you are. It was a law against eating your boyfriend after he got killed in a fight. Even if you were eating your dead boyfriend in a good way.
 
  

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