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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

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23:21 / 17.01.07

Thank you Grant. It took me a while to figure out the FAQ and the Wiki were one and the same.

--Ember--

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

00:45 / 18.01.07

say, along with the sephiroth package, think we could do a similar thing just on the hebrew letters themselves? seems like there's a bit of symbolism in each letter, important to gematria etc...might be nice for new goobers like me who are just starting to study the characters.

think it'd fly?

02:21 / 18.01.07

So, this is either a stupid question, or a stupid meta-question.

I'm looking for information on a specific deity, the Tibetan goddess Lha Mo. She is supposedly a protective deity, to some degree warlike. Now, ordinarily, I'd just sort of go poking about in the universe via meditation, scrying, etc, but the thing is, this isn't for me, it's for a friend of mine ("I'm just holding this goddess for a friend, officer") who is apparently attempting to contact her but having no luck. Because I know nothing about the lady in question, I'm not at all certain that I want to get her attention, especially since I have done like zero work within any eastern traditions. So I'm looking, primarily, for associations that might attract her ("Wear yellow silk and drink jasmine tea" or whatever) that I can pass off to my associate for his use.

So, the meta-question is, does this rate a new topic on Temple? I've seen the recent Hel thread, but I know that there are probably significant numbers of 'lithers who have information on that, I'm not as certain it's appropriate to start a "SWM ISO Tibetan War Goddess" thread for someone admittedly far more obscure.

Any thoughts, on either question?

10:35 / 18.01.07

Ooh, after a bit of looking I found out interesting things;
Lha-mo (Tibetan: “Goddess”; Sanskrit: Sri-devi, or Kala-devi), fierce city goddess of Lhasa is the only female of eight Dharmapalas Tibetan drag-gshed (“cruel, wrathful hangman”) in Tibetan Buddhism, any one of a group of eight divinities who, though benevolent, are represented as hideous and ferocious in order to instill terror in evil spirits.
Worship of dharmapalas was initiated in the 8th century by the magician-saint Padmasambhava, Guru Rinpoche.

I'd say start a thread on Tibetan deities in general, which will induce discussion around the subject.

10:36 / 18.01.07

Anon prophet - I can't help you I'm afraid.

However, I do have a "stupid" magick question.

I have noticed quite a few posts in temple in which the poaster refers to a specific god as their "patron". I've managed to get a vague idea of what people mean by this but I'd like some specifics please - what exactly do people mean when they use the word in this context and how do you come to the conclusion that a god is your patron?

trouser the trouserian

10:46 / 18.01.07

Anon - some info on Lha Mo:

Lha Mo - also known as Palden Lha Mo ("Goddess bearing Glory") is one of the eight deities that make up the group known as the Dharmapalas (the other seven are all male). As the term Dharmapala implies, they are seen as defenders of the Buddhist faith and are sometimes propitiated for the removal of obstacles to realisation. She is also the protectress of the city of Lhasa and the Dalai Lama. She is sometimes depicted accompanied by two dakini acolytes. She carries various weapons which were given to her by the gods - this has led to some speculation that she is a Tibetan buddhist adaption of the Indian Durga, although there's also an argument that her origins are in the "buddhification" of earlier Tibetan goddesses.

Some useful discussion of her here

this article gives a traditional address to Lhamo, and may be of some assistance in formulating ritual approaches:

"I summon thee hither from the north-eastern region surrounded by the great ocean Muliding, by the blue letter Hum, which is traced upon my heart, spreading with its iron hook a beam of light; thee, the mighty and powerful mistress and queen Rimate and thy attendants."

11:19 / 18.01.07

johnny enigma - there have been a number of posts that I could find about deity relationships and the question of patronage:

Invoking/ accessing patron godforms - a practical guide?,

the question's raised a thread about Odin,

And
Choose your deity vs. divine channeling,

Deities in Cultural Context, a personal dilemma,

From tiny thought-forms massive gods do grow ... maybe, might be of interest too.

Mordant Carnival gives this succinct reply a few posts down from the post in the Odin thread linked above:

Some people have patrons--a special friend amongst the Gods, the being they are closest to. And some of those people, for reasons I don't fully understand, are claimed in a particularly intense way: they belong to the God completely, and that God can make demands upon them--sometimes very heavy demands--which they can't refuse without serious consequences. Nor can they necessarily cut ties with their patron and walk away. It's very rare for things to get quite that extreme but it does happen. It's rather a sticky subject amongst pagans and heathens generally: some insist that their nice fuzzy Gods wouldn't doooooo that, and others are still stuck in the Gods-as-consumer-goods mentality (where you can take your God back to the shop and exchange Hir if Ze doesn't go with your curtains).

I'd be interested to hear more, too.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:22 / 18.01.07

On Gods as patrons:

Generally speaking, when someone talks about their patron or matron* deity they are referring to a being who has taken a special and active interest in their lives and with whom they feel the strongest connection.

I think it's important to note that whilst the dictionary definitions of the terms patron and matron have strong connotations of paternalism, of being provided for and generally looked after, in the context of pagan discourse this connotation is not necessarily present. While the m/patron may step in and help the votary out from time to time, ze is not generally regarded as a divine nanny. (Not for long, anyway.) In many cases it is assumed that the matron or patron deity will be deliberately thwarting the votary and throwing challenges hir way to facilitate growth.

As to how you know who your patron is: First off, not everyone has a patron deity in that sense. You don't need one. The patronage of a particular deity is not necessary to give one an in to Hir pantheon or hir metaphysical area of operations. A lot of people run around like headless chickens trying to find their patron, stagnate in their practices or think less of themselves because their patron hasn't shown up yet, or latch on to random Gods and Goddesses as patrons only to drop 'em six months later. This is very silly.

In a minority of cases, a God may just show up at some point and announce: "Hi, I'm your patron. Better get used to the idea because I'm not going anywhere," and proceed to wreak all kinds of changes in that person's life. I'm not sure why this happens, but it does.

If you think that a particular deity or spirit might be taking an interest in you, you can use divination to find out Who it is (best to get confirmation from a number of different sources. If you feel drawn to a particular being, you can make offerings, set up chats, and most importantly study Hir and think about the ways you can amp up the expression of Hir mysteries in your life, and see how the relationship develops.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:23 / 18.01.07

*I keep seeing "patroness" used and it tweaks me. Matron, dammit!

11:26 / 18.01.07

after 35 pages of this thread that i havent actually read, theres almost definitely going to be a question on this. however, if there is, im confident that you wouldnt mind answering it again.

transcendancy. evolving above your physical cage and coming to a higher plain of existence. do any of you think that its acutally a plausible event, let alone a possible one. noone has yet understood or explained the mind itself (which is such a monumental task, for such a complex system to be explained, that it seems entirely impossible), however, dreams take place without the body itself being active, which leads to the idea that the body is unnecessary for the mind to function, one must simply understand how to exit the body. any thoughts on the its possibility?

trouser the trouserian

12:01 / 18.01.07

In a minority of cases, a God may just show up at some point and announce: "Hi, I'm your patron. Better get used to the idea because I'm not going anywhere," and proceed to wreak all kinds of changes in that person's life.

Mordant

This seems to be quite common in India - for example this Bengali tale about how the goddess Manasa gained her first devotee by unmercifully hassling him and his family. Also article by June McDaniel (pdf) wherein she interviews a female devotee of Manasa:

As a child she had visions of snakes, which would lead her to other worlds. Later she got a severe fever, and she was ill and near death, and had a vision of the goddess. The goddess called her to be her devotee, and Parvati got well when she agreed to be medium and priestess for the goddess. She understood this to be a spiritual illness, with the dream command given by the goddess. Manasa demanded worship, and gave Parvati matted hair or jata to show her religious status. She became a married healer, respected by the village as an important religious figure. As a tribal woman following a folk Hindu deity, she would not have high status, but her role as a holy woman had caste Hindus coming to her for blessings. In many rural areas of India, possession trance is the highest union.

12:15 / 18.01.07

dreams take place without the body itself being active

Nopes. Brain activities still happening isn't it?

On transcendence... well that's kind of a complex question. Assuming that there is a non-physical world, and that it is preferrable to the physical one, then there are a couple of techniques that people have used to access it. Things like astral travel and "shamanic" journeying are the things to google. There's an interesting critique of the whole concept happening here

But they are pretty big assumptions, about pretty big concepts. It's one of those questions where you just aren't going to get a consensus. Belief in some variety of non-physical reality is probably pretty common in the Temple, but wanting to "transcend" probably isn't so common. I for one, whilst loving my various dissembodied peeps, am very much attached to the physical. Why would you want to transcend nerves and sex and beer?

I think it's one of those things where you just have to poke around and make an educated guess. Maybe have a look at gnosticism

14:22 / 18.01.07

trouser, I so adore your online article linkage skillz. Thank you!

14:33 / 18.01.07

Again on the patron gods thing: the real hook for me is the question of whether it's possible to be involuntarily religious. I don't mean forced conversions, I mean in terms of being in relationship with a deity without consent. I guess because in my own spirituality, free choice - lack of coercion - is essential.

Closed for Business Time

14:42 / 18.01.07

~keir, as our princess said, these are huge fields, enormously complex concepts with millenia of history behind them. Some hold that every religion shares a core of tenets of which some form of transcendence of the physical and/or being one with the godhead is one. The many mystic traditions in Christianity (look up Meister Eckhart for a prominent exponent), Sufism in Islam, much of Buddhist practice (Zen is a well-known branch), Kabbalistic Judaism and Indian religious traditions such as Tantra can all be said to be about transcending the earthly and achieving eternal wisdom. I for one believe it is possible to come to have an experience that is pure consciousness and not shaped by the body or one's culture. Others disagree. Study and practice must be your judge, I'm afraid.

14:49 / 18.01.07

Again on the patron gods thing: the real hook for me is the question of whether it's possible to be involuntarily religious. I don't mean forced conversions, I mean in terms of being in relationship with a deity without consent. I guess because in my own spirituality, free choice - lack of coercion - is essential.

Yeesh...well...IMO I've known people who were for whatever reasons were born into some sort of relationship with a variety of Entities. In some cases it was a bloodline inheritence that could be interfered with to some level of success, like deciding you really didn't want to be a long distance runner even though you physically inherited a body suited for it. In the other case it was like you were born into a family with a really nasty Grandmother who would show up and yell at you unless you moved away without a forwarding address. It's not always just about M/Patrons, there are some very strange beasties out there that seem to attach themselves to families.

Then there is the whole past life thing to get into where it has nothing to do with the blood in your veins but some sort of stamp on your soul. Getting told by a Deity that you Belong to Them and Always Have can be very very overwhelming. I personally don't have an issue with it because my cats seem to have the same attitude. I don't feel a loss of self freedom because my cats obviously think my entire purpose revolves around them. From their perspective they are quite correct to think that way.

It's more a matter of what actions are being taken in your life than what's stated about it. I belong to a couple fo humans, cats, and Gods and can't easily sever those ties, but then I can't see any reason to do so. I have every confidence that if I really needed to I could, well except maybe not with the cats....

Free choice and free will are large areas of discussion, perhaps you'd like to start a topic on it?

14:56 / 18.01.07

Question- why, when I research Sri-Devi (Palden Lhamo) do I sometimes get directed to Laxmi and sometimes to Kali? Lha-Mo seems more of a Kali-analogue to me (esp. from the pictures) but maybe it's just the interweb not quite grasping shakti, and equating goddesses with each other willy-nilly.

15:03 / 18.01.07

Is there anything I can do to help someone who dreams about me? I feel awful. Am I doing this? I just want them to have peace of mind. I do love him, despite the fact he left me, but I don't want him to feel haunted. Or is this healthy? Can I do anything at all to help him?

The Ghost of Tom Winter

15:29 / 18.01.07

Is there anything I can do to help someone who dreams about me?

I wouldn't think too much of it. I doubt that you'd be causing him to have dreams about you. If you just got out of a relationship of some sorts with him you're probably still on his mind and thus he will likely still dream about you. Unless the dreams become troublesome I wouldn't worry too much about it.

15:41 / 18.01.07

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I am a little confused because I thought I was handling things in the best way possible. I dunno, I feel awful for him. I know what it is like to hurt. I never wanted that for him. I have to believe he will make it through. I think I am going to ask the Goddess to send him blessings. What else am I to do? We can't go back now, as twists in fate won't allow for it.

15:51 / 18.01.07

Some hold that every religion shares a core of tenets of which some form of transcendence of the physical and/or being one with the godhead is one.

I note the "or" and approve. Being one with the godhead can involve being very firmly in the physical, in some paths/for some people. In/for others, of course, its only possible to do the latter if you do the former.

Unconditional Love

16:40 / 18.01.07

If you were to equate transcendence with evolution, the moving beyond current states of consciousness that form social and personal events as well as spiritual insights, it seems to make some sense to me at least.

If you then take spiritual systems that engage a large amount of the brains attention consecutively you could argue that those systems attempt to evolve the human brain to transcend it current limitations.

trouser the trouserian

16:42 / 18.01.07

Quants

It's worth bearing in mind that in some forms of Indian religion, there is more fluidity between the "identities" of different gods & goddesses than we usually allow for in modern western occulture and many of them are considered to be multi-aspected.

For example, the obvious connection between, say, Palden Lhamo and Lakshmi is the peacock. Lhamo is sometimes depicted under a peacock-feather umbrella, and Lakshmi is sometimes shown wearing peacock-shaped armbands. Peacocks have multiple associations within various forms of Indian religions and Tibetan Buddhism - see for example The Peacock's Neutralizing of Poison attributed to the 10th Century Mayahana teacher, Dharmarakshita.

Also, both Lakshmi & Lhamo (particularly her milder forms) share associations with wealth & good fortune and both may be considered to be boddhisatvas.

16:45 / 18.01.07

I am a little confused because I thought I was handling things in the best way possible.

You may well be, and he's still dreaming about you. How he takes things, and especially how his subconscious deals with them while he sleeps, is completely out of your hands (and, as far as the latter, largely out of his as well).

Is he holding you somehow responsible for the content of his dreams, or trying to make you feel bad about it?

16:53 / 18.01.07

Thanks mordant et al for the links

17:26 / 18.01.07

there is more fluidity between the "identities" of different gods & goddesses than we usually allow for

That's what I'm thinking, IMHO it might be a side effect of a long cultural history- e.g. the Egyptian gods merge and change identities similarly. Also another example of the weaknesses of some internet resources, wikipedia particularly, reiterating common misconceptions and/or mistakes. I was expecting to find out more connections with Kali, but it seemed for a while that Palden Lhamo=Sri Devi=Laxmi, which made no sense. I thought Sri was an honorific and Devi was Sanskrit for Goddess, so I couldn't see how that was her name. I think I've got a better grip now though.

AnonProphet, this was probably the best source I found;

She is usually depicted in nakthang [black-ground style scroll] crossing the sea of blood riding side-saddle on a white mule. There is an eye on the left rump of the mule which is the place where her irate husband's arrow found a mark. She had killed her son and used his flayed skin as a saddle blanket. In many monasteries her image is in a corner and is always kept covered.

17:32 / 18.01.07

...and check this out;
It used to be the custom in Lhasa, to ridicule powerful members of society once a year, and so "the tutelary deity of Tibet and its government, the goddess Palden Lhamo, took possession of the lady destined to act as the chief lampooner during the festival of the New Year and spoke through her mouth. The goddess selected her from among the crowd of women gathered at a central well as they drew water for the crowds participating in the festival."

17:44 / 18.01.07

I've seen similar things happen around the office bubblah.

18:11 / 18.01.07

Justrix: I dunno, I feel awful for him. I know what it is like to hurt. I never wanted that for him.

Mrf. I know the feeling, but to be honest, it's not possible to go through life without hurting people, without getting hurt. Major changes or endings in relationships tend to hurt. It's part of the process. I'm not sure it's doing anyone a service to encourage the idea that it isn't supposed to (I've seen people tear themselves up because they still hurt and thought they oughtn't) and I'm not even sure it's actually a service to truely remove the hurt - there IS something to learn from the changes, about what prompted them.

As for his dreaming of you. I agree with these others that the odds are there's nothing much you can do other than let him heal in his own time.

However, It occurs to me to toss this out, since it's part of my current studies in Soul Retrieval: I don't think it's necessarily applicable, but IF you feel you are still holding onto a piece of him and that is why he is dreaming about you, you can certainly give it back to him. There are several ways that I am reading about that strike as having different nuances depending on what else you do or don't want out of the relationship, or you can meditate on what the best method would be from scratch.

--Ember--

18:23 / 18.01.07

Thank you EmberLeo. If you have anything else you want to add, you can send it to me through PM of course. I don't want to take over this thread. ON the other hand, maybe your method would be useful to more than myself.

trouser the trouserian

21:08 / 18.01.07

I thought Sri was an honorific and Devi was Sanskrit for Goddess, so I couldn't see how that was her name.

Quants

Well yes, Sri is often used as an honorific, but its quite a complex one - with associations to beauty, glory, and high rank. It has a very old association (from the Vedic period onwards) with the power of kingship and can generally be understood as an auspicious quality associated with prosperity, well-being, and majesty - and authority both temporal and spiritual. Moreover, and particularly in relation to goddesses, sri as a quality, has a transactional aspect to it - as something which can be bestowed (and taken away). So Sri as a goddess, can be understood as the embodiment or personification of this quality, and Sri and Lakshmi are synonymous, hence Sri-Lakshmi. For a more comprehensive siscussion of Sri-Lakshmi I'd suggest David Kinsley's book Hindu Goddesses (for starters).

Devi is generally understood to mean "goddess" but again, things can get difficult quite quickly as "Devi" can be a reference to the Great Goddess (i.e. Mahadevi) from whom all other goddesses are but aspects, or it can appear as part of the title of a particularised goddess - hence "Sri Lakshmi Devi" is entirely appropriate ("she who is [bestows] auspicious[ness] and fortune" would be one way of rendering it) and there is also a social practice (particularly in Bengal) of referring to upper-caste women (or otherwise honoured women) as ".... Devi".

If one is taking up a sectarian stance, as might a Vaishvana or an initiate of a Lakshmi-oriented tantric lineage, then using the title Sri Lakshmi Devi would imply that Lakshmi is the supreme goddess, of whom all other deities are but reflections.

Err, has that made it any clearer?

04:04 / 19.01.07

Justrix, I'll put it in the existing Soul Retrieval thread, since that's what it's related to as a practice.

--Ember--

07:43 / 19.01.07

Thank you EmberLeo!

In an interesting turn of events, I have been instructed to leave offerings for the Eryines. Actually, was more highly recommended that I do so. There is a very interesting story to go with this. Unfortunately, I cannot get much further into personal matters.

So, I have no idea what to offer, but I think it may have to be burnt to a crisp, whatever it is. Does anyone know anything about this? What would make sense to offer the Eryines? I just want to make certain They are satisfied, properly. So, burnt offerings for the Eryines, anyone?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:13 / 19.01.07

Shall we take the free-will thing over to the guides-and-Gods thread, or should we start a new one?

15:38 / 19.01.07

For me Mordant? I would say I have choices, but there are consequences for everything. I am not exactly certain I have a choice at this point about much at all. I am just tying to surf the waves as they come.

If you weren't addressing me, Mordant, please excuse this.

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