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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
11:55 / 19.11.06
Neil Gaiman is not and never has been a practising magician. Therefore, black t-shirts and dark sunglasses not withstanding, his ideas about the Gods should be taken with the same pinch of salt you might attribute to the theological speculation of Bob Monkhouse or Terry Wogan. End of story, really.
 
 
Princess
14:35 / 19.11.06
I'm not sure I agree with that at all. Most of the information we have about ancient deities didn't come down from practicing magicians. When I'm looking at the classical gods I read Ovid, Homer and Aristophanes. I'm sure Mordant will correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the Prose Edda written by a Christian? While this is, and I can't articulate exactly why right now, different from Gaimanm, to say that writers have little bearing in relation to Deities is just patently untrue.
 
 
Quantum
21:16 / 19.11.06
If the gods are so powerful, why did Christianity take over Europe? Emberleo

If the Beatles are so great, why are Westlife number one?
 
 
Quantum
21:23 / 19.11.06
to say that writers have little bearing in relation to Deities is just patently untrue.

Yes, but to say Gaiman has anything important to say about Bast is also patently untrue. I've read the comic and liked the story and art but the premise ('Once a major goddess, the loss of her believers over time has significantly reduced her powers') I don't agree with. Gaiman is a writer, true, but in Sandman and American Gods his fictional depiction of Bast is no more relevant to the goddess than Halle Berry. We can reopen the whole fiction/fact can of worms if you like, but let's not pretend Neil Gaiman has anything useful to say about gods and goddesses.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:22 / 20.11.06
When I'm looking at the classical gods I read Ovid, Homer and Aristophanes. I'm sure Mordant will correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the Prose Edda written by a Christian?

But you read Ovid, Homer and Aristophanes for information about the classical Gods because they are writing from a perspective and point in history that is either close to - or a direct product of - the period when the worship of those deities was both widespread and an integral part of the culture. It's not just about whether they are a "writer" or a "magician". Homer's perspective on Apollo is not directly equivalent to Neil Gaiman's perspective of Loki, just because they are both writers.

Similarly, Snorri Sturrlison was a Christian who wrote the prose Edda, a retelling of the Norse Sagas that loses something because of the Christian bias of Snorri. However, it is still the oldest surviving source for those particular tales - that are not recounted in the earlier poetic Edda. So in order to learn more about the magic and religion of the North, you have to read around the bias.

Neil Gaiman, on the other hand, does not have any special insight, cultural background, or historical positioning that would make him an authority - in any sense whatsoever - on the subject of working with deities, or on the specific nature of deities. It's like going to JK Rowling as your primary source for information about doing practical magical work for clients. It's like watching an episode of "Lost" and confusing it with a serious documentary on the plight of air crash survivors.
 
 
Ticker
14:04 / 20.11.06
Neil Gaiman, on the other hand, does not have any special insight, cultural background, or historical positioning that would make him an authority - in any sense whatsoever - on the subject of working with deities, or on the specific nature of deities. It's like going to JK Rowling as your primary source for information about doing practical magical work for clients. It's like watching an episode of "Lost" and confusing it with a serious documentary on the plight of air crash survivors.

Well, on one hand I agree with ya about informing the rules of a practice. On the other certain cultures give heightened regard to stroytellers and poets for being able to generate myth. Special insight really depends on the system and who is behind it. The authority on working with or about any set of Deities would have to be those Folks Themselves and those They've taught. AFAIK Gaiman has never claimed to be getting any insights onto Them but rather creating his own imagintive offerings for entertainment purposes. So I agree he is not an authority but there maybe resonance in his work that an authority might point to.
Storytellers and poets often stumble upon the realm of the priest and magician. The difference is in holding up a bright shiny bauble to the delight of the crowd versus actually knowing how the tool works and using it for its intended purpose.

Nice to see you posting again!
 
 
Dubtastic
18:32 / 20.11.06
What "is" a planetary intelligence? Like Tiriel for Mercury. In which system do these entities originate? How is a planetary intelligence different from a planetary demon? And can anyone recommend books about them? thx
 
 
EmberLeo
18:44 / 20.11.06
christianity molded the essence of many different spirits into different shapes, the essence of those pagan spirits remain in the christian faith

Well, the Catholic church did, anyway. (I assume the Eastern Orthodox churches did as well, but I know considerably less about it.)

Most of the Protestant faiths deliberately moved away from that for the very reason that they were merely gloss over pagan stuff. The Anglican/Episcopal churches are an obvious exception to this.

Quantum: If the Beatles are so great, why are Westlife number one?

I percieve this as mocking me. Do you think the question is pointless? Or am I just missing something?

2: I've never heard of Westlife, so if they're number 1 I missed it.

We can reopen the whole fiction/fact can of worms if you like, but let's not pretend Neil Gaiman has anything useful to say about gods and goddesses.

Rude Boy: his ideas about the Gods should be taken with the same pinch of salt you might attribute to the theological speculation of Bob Monkhouse or Terry Wogan.

It's like going to JK Rowling as your primary source for information about doing practical magical work for clients.

It's like comparing something moderate to something ridiculous to remove it's value entirely?

Why are we in 'one apple spoils the barrel' mode?

I don't think anybody is trying to say that Neil Gaiman knows everything there is to know about the gods, or even that he's a practicing pagan or magician or whatever (at least I'm not).

But how is this an all/nothing prospect? Must he either be exactly right, or he's useless? Must his writing be a literal reflection of our reality, or else it's Harry Potter?

If nothing else, the realities he proposes give us the opportunity to think, seriously, about the repercussions of those philosophies, allowing us to see why the stories don't actually reflect reality as we know it.

I don't know how well read Bob and Terry are, but I know Gaiman is extremely well read in the areas of mythology, folklore, and if I'm not mistaken, philosophy. He has a very strong grasp of the significance of storytelling. But this is the same guy who says, repeatedly, "Writers are liars", and he certainly has no qualms about telling a story that isn't intended to reflect reality in a direct, literal sense.

So the grain of salt is less "This is total bullshit and he doesn't know anything at all. Don't bother thinking about how his work reflects on your reality." and more "This isn't intended to be a literal story of how he percieves your magical reality. It's a story about an idea, to entertain and prompt thought about what your own reality is based on."

--Ember--
 
 
charrellz
22:49 / 20.11.06
Quantum: If the Beatles are so great, why are Westlife number one?
I percieve this as mocking me. Do you think the question is pointless? Or am I just missing something?
2: I've never heard of Westlife, so if they're number 1 I missed it.


Let me try to clear that one up. I don't think it's supposed to be mocking so much as a slightly funny counter-example. The idea of a boy band topping the charts instead of what many people consider the greatest band ever topping the charts still. If the pagan gods are great, they should still be the big gods is somewhat analogous to if the Beatles are great, they should still be topping the charts so many decades later.


I had written some responses to other parts, but I'm not even sure what I'm talking about anymore. I'll rethink this and be back later.
 
 
EmberLeo
23:10 / 20.11.06
Err, bit of a formatting error, that. You said:

Let me try to clear that one up. I don't think it's supposed to be mocking so much as a slightly funny counter-example. The idea of a boy band topping the charts instead of what many people consider the greatest band ever topping the charts still. If the pagan gods are great, they should still be the big gods is somewhat analogous to if the Beatles are great, they should still be topping the charts so many decades later.

So we're equating power to popularity? And yet we're arguing against the idea that worship is food for the gods?

I'm confused.

(BTW, I asked if I was missing something because I was giving the benefit of a doubt that I wasn't actually being mocked just 'cause I read it that way. After all, I barely know you folks.)

--Ember--
 
 
charrellz
01:33 / 21.11.06
Err, bit of a formatting error, that.
Yeah, first time I ever skip the 'preview post' button, and look what happens. Already sent in a mod request, just waiting to be filled.

So we're equating power to popularity? And yet we're arguing against the idea that worship is food for the gods?

Quite the opposite, really. Westlife selling better than the Beatles at the moment doesn't necessarily make Westlife a better/more powerful band. They're just selling better. Likewise, Christianity 'beating out' the pagan gods doesn't make ol' G-d more powerful than Odin, it just means he's currently more popular. One doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other. I think that makes sense. Sitting at this desk for the last 6 hours is starting to get to me.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:54 / 21.11.06
Ah so neil gaiman is kinda like a cover version or remix, not the original, kinda like andrew eldritch singing jolene by dolly parton, or emma by the four tops. (or may be that was hot chocolate)

The planetary spirits are described in the olde grimoires, i think they may have an origin in kabbalah, and from my knowledge were mostly employed in astrological and talismanic magic.

Look up cornelius aggrippa and his ilk. 15th, 16th century magicians.

Sure somebody knows more than me in those regards.
 
 
EmberLeo
11:16 / 21.11.06
Likewise, Christianity 'beating out' the pagan gods doesn't make ol' G-d more powerful than Odin, it just means he's currently more popular

Fair enough.

So, what is the measure of such things, if indeed they are pertinent? If anything, the pieces of this argument sound like a correlation that we can't prove has causation in either direction, and it's about equally fair to say it does or doesn't matter.

Which makes me wonder if there's any point to it at all.

--Ember--
 
 
courier5
19:50 / 21.11.06
does one system have a monopoly on truth simply because it keeps repeating the same story, or has the longest pedigree? or does another have a monopoly because it's the most visible right now?

how can validity be based on such variables?

if it works, use it.
if not, recycle.
 
 
Quantum
16:58 / 22.11.06
I percieve this as mocking me. Do you think the question is pointless? Or am I just missing something?
emberleo

No, not mocking- as charrelz said, popularity distinct from power or value. Sorry to be unclear, Irish boyband Westlife have topped the UK singles chart for the 14th time in their career with The Rose.

Planetary intelligence? Do you mean this?
 
 
EmberLeo
18:57 / 22.11.06
No worries. Thanks for the clarification

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:28 / 23.11.06
The question arises, are all truthes constructed by humans, is the truth of this body, a plant, a rock constructed by humans. Or is a human prone to this view point because it is approached from the view of culturally constructed artifacts, art, writing, technology etc, when the emphasis lies on what humans can create in a given culture, then the spiritualities are also likely to appear to represent that value system of human articulation.

Or are spiritualities something that are relayed through humans but not of humans? not alien, but not human as in the inhabitance of a physical form.

Or is it all just you? and people that reinforce that sense of you you currently subscribe too.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:43 / 23.11.06
Take for example a symbol set like the alphabet and numerals, how were these encoded into your consciousness? I guess you can remember the education process and the unconscious assimilation from the environment via parents, television, etc.

But consider what was there before this symbolic set was encoded into your consciousness? what was its nature, how did it communicate? was it purely sensory? (really) investigate that one.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:58 / 23.11.06
Is evolution really an accumulation of knowledge, or is it perhaps a change of awareness, knowledge is bound by the symbol sets it roots from, awareness is not.

Symbol sets become the limits of knowledge as relayed through human articulation.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:51 / 23.11.06
I guess you can remember the education process and the unconscious assimilation from the environment via parents, television, etc.

Actually, it's an intruiguing question for the precise reason that I can't remember how I first learned to read. My Mom tells me I was laughing at what I thought was a break of the soft-c rule on a shop sign when I was 3. By the time I got to formal lessons (the bulk of which I do remember, and am not likely to forget considering how poorly I was treated for already knowing), I was already reading. So I literally can't remember a time before words.

And yet I don't think in words first, as I've heard some argue. It's kind of obvious to me that I have to translate my abstract and image-based thoughts into a linear form, and then from there into words. By I definitely think in references.

So I'm curious - for those of you who actually DO remember what it's like to not be able to read yet - can you describe it?

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:29 / 23.11.06
Yes, my first memories are dreams.
 
 
Quantum
13:34 / 23.11.06
I personally can't but did study language acquisition and psychological development, how babies learn to communicate. It's not reading so much as speaking that's the crux; can anyone remember the time before they could speak? I imagine it to be a lot like being on strong hallucinogens, all sensory impressions.

I have two stupid religion questions- roughly when did Goddess worship become supplanted by God worship in Europe, and who were the brothers of Jesus?
 
 
Dubtastic
17:17 / 23.11.06
Planetary intelligence? Do you mean this? no i dont.

synchronously i met the guy who wrote this, this summer.. hes
doing interesting work

Will look up the magician that was mentioned earlier cheers
 
 
Quantum
17:46 / 23.11.06
Like Tiriel for Mercury. In which system do these entities originate? How is a planetary intelligence different from a planetary demon? And can anyone recommend books about them? Dubtronic

It's from The Magus by Francis Barrett. I'm not sure how a planetary intelligence differs from a planetary demon though, care to elaborate a bit?
 
 
EmberLeo
18:21 / 23.11.06
I have two stupid religion questions- roughly when did Goddess worship become supplanted by God worship in Europe

Um, don't hold me to this - I'm not a history buff by any stretch of the imagination - but I thought the idea that Europe ever had essentially monotheistic Goddess worship was Margaret Murray's fallacy?

I assume you're not asking when it was that polytheism was replaced with Christianity in various areas, though?

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
18:48 / 23.11.06
I was thinking of Venus statues indicating goddess worship, being supplanted. After a bit of poking I found that the short answer is 'a few thousand years before Christ';

As evidenced by their funeral customs, males and females appear to have had equal status. Many historians and archaeologists believe that:
-Their society was matrilineal; children took their mothers' names.
-Life was based on lunar (not solar) calendar.
-Time was experienced as a repetitive cycle, not linearly as we think of it.
Many academics believe that the suppression of Goddess worship in Western Europe occurred a few thousand years BCE, when the Indo-Europeans invaded Europe from the East. They brought with them some of the "refinements" of modern civilization: the horse, war, belief in male Gods, exploitation of nature, knowledge of the male role in procreation, etc. Goddess worship was gradually combined with worship of male Gods to produce a variety of Pagan religions


But it is all theory since it was so long ago.

Some authors, the most notable of whom is Marija Gimbutas, believe goddess worship started in prehistoric times. They believe that artifacts from that period, such as the "Venus of Willendorf", may be representations of fertility goddesses

On the siblings of Jesus, it's contentious but seems it is clearly stated again in Matthew 13:55 that James and Joses were Jesus' brothers. Problem is getting an impartial view due to the dogmatic conflict.
 
 
Quantum
18:52 / 23.11.06
Although Mark 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the Son of Mary, the Brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." pretty much convinces me.
 
 
Quantum
18:59 / 23.11.06
Aha!
Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers of Jesus. (See Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3.) There has been much discussion through the centuries as to the exact relationship of these men to Jesus. Three principal views have been advanced:
(1) that they were Jesus' actual brothers, that is, half brothers, sons of Joseph and Mary (and therefore younger than Jesus);
(2) that they were His stepbrothers, that is, children of Joseph by a previous marriage (and thus all older than He and not His blood relatives at all);
(3) that they were the cousins of Jesus on the mother's side, according to some, or on Joseph's side, according to others


I'll stop rotting the thread now. But one of his brothers was named Judas? Blimey.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:54 / 23.11.06
How is it possible to rot this thread??

Okay, so what I was thinking was that the Goddess statues didn't indicate a feminist monotheism, but a lot of small, local goddesses.

If men and women were considered equal, does it make sense that one gender was regarded as more divine than the other? I mean, there's the whole bearing babies thing, which is pretty magical.

My Mom has related to me the idea that the evolution of thought in this area is that Creation is divine. At first it's thought women somehow spontaneously bear babies. Then it's thought women are passive, and men "plant" whole zygotes into their bellies. Now, of course, we know both parents contribute directly to the body of the baby.

But I don't honestly know what my Mom was reading

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:06 / 25.11.06
Has anybody tryed to work with hermanubis? If so how is he characteristically different to anubis, whom strikes me as very similar to hermes in many ways.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:51 / 26.11.06
Is a pantmoustache that part of your pubes that sticks out the side of your pants creating a neat moustache around the sides and top od the pants, what style should a pantmoustache be? Walrus, handlebar?
 
 
EmberLeo
18:16 / 26.11.06
Point taken.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:16 / 26.11.06
Is there a correlation between the crossed arms and face on a pharoahs sarcophogus and the skull and cross bones? blame pirates of the caribean toys on sale in supernmarkets and online flash documentaries about the valley of the kings.

Crossed arm bones and a face? where exactly does the skull and crossbones come from?
 
 
Papess
21:33 / 26.11.06
You mean The Jolly Roger?
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
04:42 / 27.11.06
I have in my life only tried sigil magick a large handful of times. However one thing I can't seem to do is judge its success rate whatsoever. Certain things I have sigilised for have happened but have happened in such an obvious "life was going this way anyways" way that its really hard to tell whether anything is being influenced at all. Is it really my attempts or is it simply that my natural inclination to a certain goal will result in it happening anyways? and if so how do you really tell the difference? I have tried to catch myself out and done a few very specific spells for very specific goals and have no results yet. However other stuff has happened, for instance I wished to meet a certain person and I did eventually. But this was (seemingly?) through coincidence when really I could have technically figured out where the person lived, got on a plane and went to find them. Its got me right confused anyways.
 
  

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