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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Papess
15:24 / 15.11.06
EW, yah. I see your point MC. UNfortunately, what Gaiman did was kill off Bast and strip Her of goddess status. I guess I was offended and I felt a little embarrassed about it. It feels good to get it off my chest and reclaim Her again.


Is the Bast thread salvageable, or did it take too bad a turn?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:44 / 15.11.06
Marvel!Loki isn't the half of it. There's evil alien Loki in Stargate, irredeemably evil and now eyeless Loki in Sandman,* irritating whiner Loki in Written in Venom,** and that's before we get to the things that practicing heathens write about Him. (I think my favourite "modern retelling"--read "bad amateur mythfic"--had to be the one that had Loki do away with Baldr when the latter resisted His advances.)

Thing is, though: Gaiman can't really kill off Bast. He can write a character that looks a bit like Bast and then have that character cease to be a Goddess and die in his comic. That's it. That's the extent of his power.

Sure, it can cause the reader a pang when a being that ze loves is portrayed in such a way but I do not believe that a comic can damage the power of a Goddess in any meaningful way. The worship = God-food model of deity put forward in Gaiman's work is indeed damaging, but to only to lazy magicians who treat it like Gospel, not to the Gods. They endure. You can tear down Their temples, you can put Their worshippers to death, you can demonise and slander them; but the God will remain.


*which also boasted a drunk womanising Thor... were really need a Thor thread around here, Thor's been subjected to some bloody stupid depictions in popular culture.

**yuck, don't bother. Really.
 
 
grant
16:18 / 15.11.06
I always read Gaiman's Thor as a direct slam on/reclamation of Marvel's Thor. Too much in the opposite direction, but...

I'm turning into a Gaiman apologist. I'll stop.
 
 
Quantum
17:05 / 15.11.06
Not to veer too much into comics but I liked this. As a comic, Mordant, as a comic, I in no way endorse the silly-helmet-Loki, but the art was lovely and the premise of the story (Loki takes over Asgard) was brilliant.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:43 / 15.11.06
Apparently He's taken to appearing to some of His worshippers in that outfit.
 
 
Hawthorn
18:31 / 15.11.06
The herbalism thread mentioned hasn't been used in a while I think and can be turned to a new direction, no? I'm interested in what you had to write, Electrix
 
 
Papess
14:16 / 16.11.06
Yes, I was thinking we could do a number of herb threads and compile them much like the tarot, rune, and iching threads.

Okay, I now have two, maybe three, Temple threads to start.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
15:30 / 16.11.06
Loki was also a character in the movie Dogma. he was supposed to be an angel. it confused me greatly. seriously. wtf.
 
 
Quantum
16:57 / 16.11.06
Apparently He's taken to appearing to some of His worshippers in that outfit.

Say what now? The green and yellow? Surely you jest! When you say 'Apparently' do you mean he told you (Haha, get this, listen to what I did to this sucker today...) or they told you (I was visited by teh Loki i knew it was him coz ov thee horns!) ?
 
 
ghadis
18:08 / 16.11.06
Talking of Gods you have an affinity with represented in comics i quite like the JLA going up against The Mad God Set!!!. He just cant stop killing!! (actually quite true in some ways) I do like the image of him. Heat vision that puts Supermans (Horus?) to shame. I've got this comic and i'm thinking of framing it and putting it up somewhere.
 
 
ghadis
18:17 / 16.11.06
One thing i do like about that cover is that Set seemingly attacked the JLA whilst they were all out partying at a nightclub.
 
 
Quantum
18:24 / 16.11.06
Why does he look like Anubis I wonder?
 
 
ghadis
18:50 / 16.11.06
Well, Set and Anubis are quite closely related and similar in terms of depiction. One being a jackal and the other something that isn't far off being quite canine. The ears are usually a give away but in this case the artist has taken a bit of artistic licence and gone for a pointy ear look. But its an ok depiction of Set. The tail would have clinched it though.
 
 
Ticker
19:09 / 16.11.06
I've always loved the cryptid look Set has going for him so I vote for the Salaawa head.
 
 
ghadis
19:28 / 16.11.06
I quite like the idea that Set was, from the start, a purely fantastical beast and that, in itself, was a large part of its inherent qualities as a deity. But, as you point out xk, the cryptid idea is really attractive (and maybe even more probable)
 
 
Ticker
19:43 / 16.11.06
mmmm desert doggy of doom!
 
 
ghadis
20:10 / 16.11.06
We should really have a thread on cryptozoology and related stuff. Not sure if there is one already.

There was an interesting article in the latest Fortean on the Narmer palette. Those long necked monkeys!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:03 / 16.11.06
Quants: Kind of the second one, except that these were people who had an ongoing devotional practice and had a good idea of what Loki "looks like" rather than some idiot with a couple of Marvel comics. Theoretically I guess it could be some kind of de-ego-izer: "You're gonna have to worship Me even when I turn up in stupid clothes!"
 
 
EmberLeo
10:26 / 17.11.06
Loki is one I fairly well expect to see in jeans when He isn't up to something specific. Why be uncomfortable, you know?

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
11:05 / 17.11.06
It is not so unthinkable that a trickster and shape-shifter would manifest in changing stories and and appearances. It doesn't seem so out of place as messing with let's say, Odin's stories and appearance. However, it is unfortunate that noobies draw upon the peripheral work and take it for the truth. I am certain it is annoying to boot.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:30 / 17.11.06
Oh, TOEB isn't so bad at the trickstering and shapeshifting either...

I really have no problem with a work of fiction that presents one or other of 'my' Gods as evil, or whatever, provided it is well done--either by creating a portrayal that's not too far off the original, or by setting up a believable version of events where the traditional Goodie/Baddie roles are reversed. I don't have copyright on my Guys just because I happen to have been worshipping Them for five minutes--Their stories are part of a huge shared culture now and are fair game for anyone to pick up and run with.

What tends to happen though is that instead of bringing a refreshing twist to the old tales, writers end up wheeling out the same hackneyed stereotypes: they make Thor a violent moron, draw Freyja as a slut, etc. It's tedious.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:56 / 17.11.06
...what I guess bothers me about all this is the way it's sort of percolated into the attitudes of a lot of practitioners. The whole Terry Pratchett Small Gods business. There's almost a who's-got-the-biggest-irreverancy-cock thing going on among a lot of modern magicians. Who needs that, really? I guess if you'd grown up with some very rigid religion being thrust on you then mocking the being/s you were forced to worship could be a healing activity, at least in the short term. But nobody's forced to worship Bast, or any other ancient pagan God.

Something I've seen described several times here and elsewhere is the phenomenon of the person who sees fit to turn up at a ritual to evoke some particular deity, and whilst there feels the need to let that deity know that Ze needn't think they're impressed, Ze's not so great, and Ze'd better not go getting any ideas about being all deity-ish around them. And then complaining because they had a thoroughly uncomfortable time of it and the deity kept poking them afterwards.

Wtf? If people aren't interested in deity work, fine, go and do something else. It's not church on Sunday with your mum. Nobody's making you be there.
 
 
Papess
12:17 / 17.11.06
Nobody's making you be there.

No, not unless you came into this world with their "stamp" or "mark" on your forehead and you are pulled into working with them, kicking and screaming - if I may paraphrase you, MC.

I think, if I understand you, it is upsetting that people are misunderstanding the nature of "The Dieties", our gods or goddesses. Instead of getting to know them, we expect them to get to know us, and conform to us. Is this correct?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:36 / 17.11.06
I meant nobody's making you be at a specific ritual, Electrix. The stamp on the head thing is a different kettle of fish (and pretty rare really).

Yeah, I was talking about the business of people expecting Gods and spirits to conform to their expectations rater than seeking to understand.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:36 / 17.11.06
And I wouldn't say it was upsetting. Disappointing, maybe.
 
 
Ticker
12:55 / 17.11.06
I'd go further and say sometimes it can and does lead to badness.

It's a form of hubris and as such I think the ass kicking it invites IMO is duly deserved.
I would draw a sharp contrast with it to say, foolishness or over eagerness.

I've known a handful of good people who got excited and invoked/worshipped/invited Beings they probably really shouldn't have considering the reprecussions (which with a bit more caution might have been predicted/mapped out beforehand).
 
 
Papess
13:22 / 17.11.06
I meant nobody's making you be at a specific ritual, Electrix. The stamp on the head thing is a different kettle of fish (and pretty rare really).

Right, gotcha. I believe that the stamp thing is petty rare, too. Indeed, it does happen.

I think Gaimen crossed that line, you are speaking of. I mean, if you are going to twist something so much, why not just make up a character-god to fill it? Well, of course, it just wouldn't have the same impact when one can just rip-off the clout of a already established deity. I agree with you also, if done well and respectfully, it can be insigthful and even inspiring.

I suspect that some humans have immortality-envy.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:38 / 17.11.06
xk: The foolishness/overeagerness/desperation thing happens, yeah. It's easy to get carried away, or just to get the wrong end of the stick. The other thing, the hubris followed by painful and memorable clue-by-four, is more what I was talking about. The "I will not display any respect whatsoever, despite the fact that I have chosen to be here" attitude, which seems to land a lot of people in hot water.

There's also an associated phenomenon whereby a person, having dismissed the vast majority of beings out-of-hand as unworthy of a mighty modern mage's time, will go digging around for more impressive-sounding names--Ye Olde Darque Gods, far cooler than any of those hidebound old deities that I can't be bothered to read up on. That can get pretty hairy too.
 
 
Ticker
14:30 / 17.11.06
Is it me or have people somehow moved away from the idea of 'god-fearing' as you know, a common sense touchstone akin to 'tiger-fearing' or 'mother-bear-fearing'?

sure not all of Them are into the smiting and plague design but seriously.
 
 
Papess
17:44 / 17.11.06
So true, xk. There is a saying about poking bears that may apply here. It is the "nature of the beast" - the Deities will act like Deities.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:41 / 17.11.06
The worship = God-food model of deity put forward in Gaiman's work is indeed damaging, but to only to lazy magicians who treat it like Gospel, not to the Gods. They endure. You can tear down Their temples, you can put Their worshippers to death, you can demonise and slander them; but the God will remain.

So, a couple different things.

First of all, Neil Gaiman isn't listed as the author of that Bast comic. It's spun off his world. I'm not sure if that affects anything here. I don't know enough about Joe Bennet and Caitlin R. Kiernan to comment on their philosophy and attitudes in other stuff.

Second, I think the worship=food idea being put forth is there because it does interesting things to the stories, and in that context the point is to tell an interesting story, and perhaps explore interesting ideas in the process, even if it turns out, when you're done poking at it, that it doesn't apply after all.

I don't think it's absoloutely untrue, but I don't think it's a face-value thing, either. It's just not that simple.

I liked the way Gaiman had that bit in American Gods better, perhaps, than in Sandman. In Sandman he had to deal with the existing DC/Vertigo universe, for one thing. The dramatic difference in interpretation of Odin, Loki, Bast, etc. in that book vs. Sandman show that Gaiman isn't wedded to either depiction. Aspects of gods, specific faces, may come and go and grow and die with the force of worship supporting them. But the power behind those names, those faces endures.

I think it's an interesting perspective on why, first of all, these hugely powerful beings seem to be just as much subject to human politics as anything else (If the gods are so powerful, why did Christianity take over Europe?) and yet seem to be able to resurface in so many different ways in so many different places (In some places Frigga is Freya. In others They're sepparate. How are both true?)

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
23:05 / 17.11.06
I think it's an interesting perspective on why, first of all, these hugely powerful beings seem to be just as much subject to human politics as anything else (If the gods are so powerful, why did Christianity take over Europe?) and yet seem to be able to resurface in so many different ways in so many different places (In some places Frigga is Freya. In others They're sepparate. How are both true?)

you should read John Michael Greer's A World Full of Gods for a good look at the scope of polytheistic Deities' abilities versus the supposed scope of the Judeo-Christian Deity.

As far as I can tell, the old European Deities were and are pretty relaxed about new comers. The idea of denying Their existence seems to have caught Them by surprise, say rather than just swapping teams. I mean if someone denied my existence I'm not sure how I'd respond versus someone just dumping me for a different relationship. You get dumped or replaced and are expected to have a certain grace about it. The people who choose you have great value and really how many of us feel truly and honestly that no one will want us? I'm not talking about crazy egomania just basic self value. The 'you don't exist' is on some level incomprehensible if you've been having a relationship all along.

In Ireland I have experienced the profound and terrible grief of Deities who have lost Their people. It's pretty much on par with grieveing parents but I was overwhelmed by it on a level I'm not affected by humans. It has literally rendered me hysterical and senseless. Imagine your children deciding you don't exist and then leaving cutting you off from any potential grandchildren or family interaction. It's horrendous. Many accepted the demotion to Sainthood or fairy-faith standing just to maintain some contact.

It appears to me that a lot of Them never really recovered from that loss. I don't really buy into the worship=food thing so much as believe some of Them don't know how to reconnect with modern humans. Luckily I've seen the people who live near the sacred sites beginning to care for the Beings who dwell there. Many pagans are returning and even the nature revering Christians are entering into dialogue with the Spirits of the Place.

The Ones I know would rather have no followers than ones who do so from fear alone. They elected to stay the course and run the long gambit. From where I'm sitting with the surge in polytheistic belief systems that may have been the right choice all along. Many parents would rather their children turn away from them than be exterminated and hope for a change in the ugly times and the joy of reunion.
 
 
Unconditional Love
01:03 / 18.11.06
Many of the principles and precepts of pagan spirits were absorbed into the figures of saints and angels, as were many of the sacred land sites, christianity molded the essence of many different spirits into different shapes, the essence of those pagan spirits remain in the christian faith, you don't have to look to far to see that.

I have taken to humbling myself completely before my spirits, ie down on hands and knees head touching the floor as a sign of my submission to the spirits i am dealing with, offering all the characteristics of my body, heart and spirit to the spirits, making myself the sacrafice.

I am getting alot of odd feed back from the practice, mostly good, i first encountered the posture in kung fu as a cat stretch, i wanted to know more so did a little research and in buddhism it is considered a way of honouring the ancestors and the earth. The image that immediately came to mind was that Islam , but since i seem to be moving into the realm of monaltry rather than monotheism at present, ive incorporated it into my devotion as paying my respects to the underworld, by bringing my face hands and chest to the earth, it makes me wonder about the origins of kissing the earth.

I have had a daily devotional practice with the egyptian god Anubis for a little over a month now, and seem to be being introduced to Nephthys at present through this practice, no idea where its going to go, but at this stage i am taking things very easy and slowly, thou lots of things are changing for me very quickly, including my whole direction in life.

I am being pressed to stop doing certain things, which on reflection are getting me nowhere, and having stopped those things i am finding new energy within me being freed up, i seem to be getting an almost unconscious guidance.
 
 
Papess
01:07 / 18.11.06
First of all, Neil Gaiman isn't listed as the author of that Bast comic. It's spun off his world.

Well, I feel a bit better about Mr.Gaimen. What do I know of comics? Thank you for clearing that up EmberLeo.
 
 
Hawthorn
03:42 / 19.11.06
Are you serious xt? That's so very sad. I never heard a whisper about that sort of thing.
 
  

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