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Moderating the Temple

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:18 / 07.06.07

Or perhaps we could consider that whilst in all probability this person is deluding himself completely, the contents of his posts are still desperately offensive. And even if he can't actually do anything I don't think that his fantasies are "harmless" or that he is either.

If someone were to mention that ze had fantasies around the fetish of mind control (not uncommon), perhaps even roleplaying same with a close chum, but ze was aware that enacting such fantasies in real life would be an act of coerced sex (as near to rape as dammit is to swearing)... that would be a "harmless fantasy." This, on the other hand, is a person who believes or claims to believe that he has the power to invade people's minds at will and that he likes to use this supposed power to sexually harrass women, and would also think it quite cool to use the same power to procure sex. See the difference?

And even if the pie-plate hat doesn't work there are plenty of mundane (both in the sense of being nonmagical and being achingly common and familiar) ways in which you can harrass, molest and rape people. I doubt that someone who'd quite like to use magic for this kind of end would really hold back from using other methods if he thought he could get away with it.

Either he's a serial woman molester or a wannabe serial woman-molester, and either way I don't want to read this shit on Barbelith. And if "lightening up" means condoning talk of sexual harrasment and rape as reasonable activites, then no, I'm not going to be lightening up any time soon.

17:47 / 07.06.07

Alex's Gran - Saturn's Nod offers a few good reasons why this is not the sort of thing about which Barbelith really ought to be lightening up, presumed inefficacy of Lucid A.I.'s psionic powers aside.

18:12 / 07.06.07

Either he's a serial woman molester or a wannabe serial woman-molester

Is he though, really? Going over his posts, I'm fairly sure he'd run a mile if any of his (clearly unworkable) psionic powers actually snared him the attention of those who he apparently seeks to force into ... doing what, exactly? He seems to be after being told that he's a likeable guy, at worst.

I don't mean to be a pain about this - I respect your opinion, as per, but honestly, aren't there better things to worry about than a man like Lucid A.I.'s stoned and/or drunk ramblings?

It seems clear enough that he doesn't mean a word of it, IMVHO.

18:16 / 07.06.07

On the other hand, I do take Satan's Nod's point.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:47 / 07.06.07

Dude, did you go and read the site he was singing the praises of? Did you read where he wrote: With women i've found it gives the 'sender' an extra interest, you're doing something i have not seen before, is what i usually get, or total flaming stare and anger, -stay out of my mind, life, dreams, i kinda like that, lol

He was expressing approval for a variety of really shitty acts, including but not limited to harrassing someone into a fear/anger response, for fun. He was putting forth a worldview where the only reason for not doing this and other shitty things to other people was the prospect of being caught and punished.

Now, whether all this is a daydream or not, it's foul. Utterly, utterly foul. It doesn't matter if it's done via a tinfoil hat, or via some more usually recognised means. I don't very much care if he "means a word of it" or not. The "it was a JOKE!11!!23" defence has rather poor precedent round here.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

19:00 / 07.06.07

Which I'm sure Alex's Grandma, even with a quart of scotch in her, understands well. I agree with her that while some of the ideas are repugnant, the poster himself comes off as an ignorant carrier. I think re-education is preferable to sending him off to another board for another group of people to either hate him or encourage him.

19:10 / 07.06.07

Well, all right, Lucid A.I. perhaps isn't all he claims to be, on the tin. But where do you draw the line? I'm not comparing Lucid A.I. to William Burroughs or Ice Cube (really, I'm not) but on a board that's quite happy, for the most part, to discuss the work of people who've made far more inflammatory statements in the past, isn't the pasting Lucid A.I.'s taking on here at the moment a bit rough?

(There's a logical gap in this argument that one could drive a Landrover through, I appreciate, but still ...)

19:10 / 07.06.07

I'm actually curious whether the villain is playing some of the same roles as Crowley, who I think had some similarly unpleasant aspects to his practice -- but I'm not sure I want to start a new topic on the subject. It's a persistent thing, though.

19:25 / 07.06.07

Grandma. Let's assume instead of a tinfoil hat he was discussing rohypnol.
You may say 'Well the chances of him getting any and using it are vanishingly small' but the fact is, that's not the point. The important facet to appreciate here is that he's writing offensive toss which people then have to read, regardless of whether his psionic bakolite madskillz are real or not, or whether or not he can actually get any GHB, he's espousing the coercion of women for sex by any means, and I quote all's fair in love and war.
See how that's stuff we shouldn't chill out about? What if he was talking about sexually coercing grannies, would that hit closer to home?

19:32 / 07.06.07

Alex, Tuna - you both appear to be imagining that Quantum and TTS said something that, in fact, they didn't. It might be wise to go back and read again what they said about this issue before you replied.

All that was proposed was that his thread be locked. That was it.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

19:34 / 07.06.07

he's espousing the coercion of women for sex by any means,

I'm not sure if that's an accurate statement, but I'm going to re-read the thread to see if I'm just missing something huge here.

and I quote all's fair in love and war.

His use of this quote leads me to believe that he is confused about a great many things, most especially romance, sex, respect for other people and how to treat people you may want to date or sleep with in the future. But I still wouldn't label him a serial mind raper or molester. Not yet, anyway. Let's let Lucid A.I. weigh in and hope he's coherent and not a huge jackass this time.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

19:36 / 07.06.07

Oops. Cross post. At any rate, the thread has been locked for hours now, so, ummm, yeah.

20:28 / 07.06.07

Let's assume instead of a tinfoil hat he was discussing rohypnol.

That would have been terrible, of course, but it's not what he was talking about. He seems to have been on about a series of ideas which he himself admits don't really work properly. Or actually, at all. Ok, he's a young soul, perhaps a very young soul, but I'm still not getting the rationale that's behind this wave of opprobrium.

Although this might be because, deep down, I don't really believe in the power of psionic helmets, or the Kabbala or the Qlipthoth, or anything else. Accordingly, I should probably now bow out of this discussion, disgracefully, like a dog that has been exiled from the city.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:43 / 07.06.07

But you don't need to believe in tinfoil hats to understand that this is a horrible mindset. Manipulating someone into sex, even in theory, even in a completely whacked theory with no chance of actually working, is horrible. Accepting and disseminating a worldview that says "we're here to fuck other people over and we can create as much damage as we like" is horrible, even if you have the small comfort of knowing that this person's proposed means aren't workable. My point is that the basic intent is warped. I don't want to see that kind of basic intent expressed and left unchallenged. Not in the Temple, not anywhere.

*

22:53 / 07.06.07

*headdesk*

I move and lose the internet for a couple of days...

22:58 / 07.06.07

There's no way promoting a lifestyle where one uses their technological means (be they scientific or religious, valid or nonfunctional) to either coerce sexual submission or just to have a laugh repeatedly at making people feel (in fear of being) violated, should never be acceptable.

I'm glad the thread's locked & hope we don't have a repeat, but I'm surprised people are defending the stuff. Even if he were using a pistol he never remembered to put a clip in, or his rohypnol was actually childrens tylenol in a misleading wrapper, instead of telepathy or Matrixy magicks, and he used those to the same effect. Even if whomever he throws out this unwanted attention on isn't experiencing any rohypnol effects or they see that the gun has no clip, assume there isn't a bullet in the chamber, and are half uncomfortable, half full of contempt, and (an extra) half amused that he thinks they're shivering in angry frustration at his big powerfulness... the intent is bad enough, the promotion of the intent to others, assures that eventually somebody will have the loaded gun, the right pills, if not (and hell if I know whether it could be) the vast flashy brainworks to telepathically brainwash people at a glance and turn them into mindless sextoys.

01:00 / 08.06.07

Manipulating someone into sex, even in theory, even in a completely whacked theory with no chance of actually working, is horrible
Can't argue with that. I have not read any of that thread since last night. Like the similarly stinky thread in comics, I really have little-to-no knowledge of the references or arcana (no pun intended), so I don't feel legitimate commenting in-thread. But in my opinion the disturbingly sexist angle some people are coming from to these threads(and others) just sucks. I feel I don't have the time to constructively contribute to many of these unfortunate and inevitable drawn-out discussions. Not because my time is so important, but literally, I work 50+ hours a week and I've usually got like 30 minutes in the morning and an hour or so off-and-on at night to interact and I really can't do justice to the discussions. Some of what I read in the temple thread bring questions to my mind, I might ask a few "stupid magic questions" in the future.
I feel guilty for you people who have "feminist fatigue", or really all those who are worn from addressing forms of ignorance and/or cultural afflictions; those that you might hope wouldn't show up so much anywhere, but maybe here especially. But thanks for continuing when you can, and never give up completely, please. Sorry for off-topicness here.

02:15 / 08.06.07

And I'm sorry for dragging this discussion out beyond where it needed to be, perhaps.

I guess the ball's in Lucid A.I.'s court now.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

06:30 / 08.06.07

I guess he's leaving. What a tool.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:42 / 08.06.07

if you can do it you do it, if you can't well it's the same old thing from university days, the less talented and intelligent would band together and play politically correct games, left leaning losers, too lazy to become lawyers or politicians, but eager to express their venom at anyone else

I'd very much like to know which university Lucid AI went to.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:49 / 08.06.07

Well he's now asked for that post to be deleted. Since people have already responded/linked to it etc I have refused that request and instead done and edit post thing, replacing the text with a little note explaining where it has gone. I've saved a copy of the original text because I need a good laugh as much as the next bastard.

08:34 / 08.06.07

I hesitated, then didn't keep a copy. There'll be another one along in a minute.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:50 / 08.06.07

I was almost sorry to see it go, not because there was anything of real worth there but because it included, in one handy location, a lot of key assumptions that I think need to be addressed more often. The gendering of magical discourse, magical ethics, that sort of thing.

11:04 / 08.06.07

I wanted to know what the asterisk was for, since I couldn't see any footnote. Thought I'd go back later and try to read it, as that little star piqued my interest in ways no amount of Rocky Horror UFOlogy analysis could. Now I will never know.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:14 / 08.06.07

The quote, and the asterisk, were from my post here.

13:06 / 08.06.07

Dammit, I only just changed my screen name so I can't have Quantum: left leaning loser for ages.

15:36 / 11.06.07

D'accord, mon cher. I havored for ages betweeen "Sibelian and his Big Mouth" and "Wacky, Middle-Aged Sibelian!"

19:25 / 12.06.07

I'm getting over my fatigue though the scary comics thread is testing my limits. Next time socially pressured via oppressive adverts but medically not required hygiene product type behavior shows up in the Temple please PM me or use the Convo pager for calling in backup. I appreciate your efforts and wish to support them.

16:36 / 03.07.07

I'm back on the GEK issue. Can we move both that thread and KEG into the convo please? The Player (and probably the other few regular wishers) is clearly never going to read any of the rest of the thread, never mind the forum, never mind the board, so it seems a bit pointless keeping it. Or, could we at least lock GEK?

17:36 / 03.07.07

Well, what would locking it achieve?

I mean, what is the outcome here you wish would happen?

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:44 / 03.07.07

And why don't you ask GEK to help you to achieve it?

17:52 / 03.07.07

I wish the perennial irritation of people using GEK as a wishing well who don't interact with the board in any way would cease. Either I have to not read the thread, not be irritated by it, or control my irritation for the sake of the poor folk whose dates will otherwise be ruined by a live tortoise, Barry Manilow and a shipment of vaseline.

At the moment, GEK is a mocking joke thread where we take the piss out of people who don't ever read what we write and couldn't care less about the board or the forum. Why keep it open?

18:04 / 03.07.07

Why am I bothered by the drop-in GEK wishers? Well, to quote Gypsy Lantern, they are basically reducing this forum to the level of internet chain letter spam, which ultimately undermines the perception of the forum as a place where intelligent debate around magic takes place.

It's the equivalent of someone in the comics forum only ever writing 'Witchblade is hott' or 'OMG Wolverine's hair LOL!!!' because there was a thread for it.

Tom Paine's Bones

22:49 / 03.07.07

I think there's also another big issue here.

Outside some of the threads in the Conversation (Barbequotes etc.) it's widely accepted that people posting to Barbelith are expected to read threads before posting to them. Whereas with the drive-by GEKers, it's often obvious they haven't even read the posts on the same page.

So I think that asking what it would achieve to lock it is to miss the real issue. The real issue is whether it's fair to expect Temple regulars to put up with crap that would be stamped on heavily elsewhere on Barbelith. And it isn't.

08:13 / 04.07.07

I suggest that someone PMs The Player, and anyone else who regularly uses the Gek thread, and draws their attention to the wider discussion. One might wish to ask them to post something about why they continue to interact with Gek, what their experience has been etc.

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