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Moderating the Temple

 
  

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HCE
15:44 / 27.09.07
Calling in sick to school. Apologies if I'm not terribly coherent. Earache.
 
 
Quantum
16:07 / 27.09.07
I would rather have a Temple full of high quality posting about magic than a Temple full of high quality posting about their issues.
I do want to encourage experiential writing and open accounts of difficult stuff, of course, but if there's an inevitable bias one way or the other as seth describes, I lean toward a more critical environment rather than a more nurturing environment.
If there's a need for a therapeutic space with different values, maybe a therapy thread within the temple is a possibility?
 
 
Seth
16:14 / 27.09.07
I'm not calling for a more therpeutic approach to posting. That's an impossibility, you just can't ensure that people will post in that manner. My stance is more to discourage too many open *first draft* accounts of experience (hoping people now broadly understand what I mean here), because Barbelith (similarly to most of the net) doesn't know how to work with them.

When prejudicial material crops up here we like to act as quickly as we can to protect anyone on the receiving end. There's no reason to change that too much. What I'm suggesting is a maybe more like a warning to the person psoting the first draft material not to do it in case the response they get back is not what they were hoping for.
 
 
Seth
16:16 / 27.09.07
In fact your reading is the reverse of my meaning.
 
 
HCE
18:12 / 27.09.07
I did understand that your post was meant as a caution to people who might post material like moneyshot's. However, the phrasing that you & GL used seemed to me to suggest that you thought it was some kind of failing of Barbelith's -- Barbelith not being set up right, Barbelith not knowing how to work with it -- that is specific to the Temple.

What I don't understand is what makes the material posted in the Temple special? Don't people have raw, intense experiences in other areas? Do you think that if the types of experiences discussed in the Temple are seen as different in intensity (I don't quite have the right words here, sorry) there may be an impulse to moderate it differently from other fora?

If you think that this is something that everybody else gets and I'm just missing the point, I'm happy to take this to PM. No need to derail the whole thread over it, and apologies if that's the case.
 
 
Seth
18:44 / 27.09.07
The main difference that I believe is present is that (correct me if I'm wrong) the Temple is the only forum that really encourages the anecdotal and the experiential. Other Revolution forums have a preference for hard data to support arguments and so are arguably less prone to these kinds of issues.

There are relatively far fewer debates in the Temple that can be bought back to facts. Also because of the nature of the material discussed you may well be far closer to the roots of someone's beliefs that elsewhere, receiving accounts from them at potentially a much deeper level that is more difficult to clearly analyse. Elsewhere you'll encounter people's prejudice, in the Temple you might find yourself much closer to the roots of that prejudice, which may not actually be the kinds of things that you'd expect them to be.

More thoughts later. At work at the mo.

Last thought: just because I believe that Barbelith in the main isn't god at something, doesn't mean that I believe it should be. It's fine to be realistic about what we can and can't do well.
 
 
Seth
19:03 / 27.09.07
It's also worth mentioning that if the other Revolution forums have a preference for less arguing in terms of anecdote then arguing for a regulation of anecdote in the Temple brings it closer to the others, not further from them.

Maybe. Concerned that I'm tired and not making much sense any more.
 
 
Papess
20:15 / 27.09.07
I believe that Barbelith in the main isn't god at something, doesn't mean that I believe it should be.

Maybe I am tired, too. It took me a while to figure out that was a typo.
 
 
Seth
20:17 / 27.09.07
Yeah. Typing on my phone at work between calls. Not a good recipe for spelling.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:47 / 28.09.07
I know I only lurk in Temple, but as far as precedents go... enough Temple mods clearly thought erasing a link to a Temple thread (which hadn't been deleted and which was under discussion) was worth a "yes" vote. Surely if it's a bad thing to link to it, we should either delete it or not discuss it? I'm still baffled as to how this works, really, on a purely Barbelith level (as in, if this can happen in Temple, does this set a precendent elsewhere? and as in "if people are supposed to be discussing something, why the fuck should it be made difficult for them to see what they're talking about?") I'm not saying it's a bad thing, necessarily, just that while we're all in a place where we're figuring out rules, it's probably a thing we should look at. If the Temple's gonna have different rules under which shit can be talked about but not seen, that should go in the T&Cs I'd love to see (but which we don't yet have).
 
 
HCE
03:09 / 28.09.07
Elsewhere you'll encounter people's prejudice, in the Temple you might find yourself much closer to the roots of that prejudice

I'll think this through for a while. Thank you for your explanation, it's helpful for me.
 
 
Quantum
08:32 / 28.09.07
In fact your reading is the reverse of my meaning.

Huh? I don't think so- I didn't read you as promoting therapy, I thought you were highlighting a conflict between total honesty (like first draft experience) and a safe space (without unexamined assertions and prejudice). If there's an inevitable clash between the two, I personally prefer the forum to fall on the side of safe space for minorities, as it's a defining feature of the board as a whole. Safe space for therapy we can't really provide, as you say.

The therapy thread idea was just something that occurred to me- it might be a good idea to have a space for that stuff, but as you rightly point out there's no way of stopping anyone dropping by with harsh commentary or giving terrible advice or feedback. Ah well.
 
 
Seth
09:07 / 28.09.07
Sorry Quants, that was addressed to gourami.

gourami: It's based on an idea that I've been slowly turning over in my head because of some of my own experiences over the last five years or so... the notion that an individual's particular psychological quirks get played out and projected onto people and what they see as people groups... and that what might manifest as prejudice or hatred can sometimes be a mask for something quite different. I'm hesitant to expand on this more right now because I'm not certain about any of it, and because it really is a moot thought for the most part when it comes to how we deal with prejudice on Barbelith. Our first responsibility is to anyone who might be hurt by it, we don't have access to the permissions or capability to analyse the person writing it and doing such is inappropriate to attempt...

... apart from in the Temple forum, in which it is not unheard of for someone to state that they are having experiences that they don't understand, to ask for help, and for the material that they post to contain many very revealing glimpses into how certain complex of thought and belief have developed in them. In that instance they've granted us the permissions necessary, and the stumbling block we're facing is the fact that it's a space where anyone can reply and that virtually none of us have the capability for this kind of analysis. I know I don't, I stumble in the dark trying to get to grips with my own issues enough.

So this is the problem as I see it. There are two things that we can't stop people doing in the Temple:

1) Posting accounts of experience, often accounts that may contain subject matter that is difficult, hard to explain or analyse and may contain ideas, images or representations that will seem initially to be prejudiced or have traits in common with some mental illness. I don't think I'd be stretching too far to say that many people got into magic in the first place because they wanted help dealing with things they don't understand, that they're interested in changing and want tools to help them do so. It's also comparatively easy to mask your real intentions by making this stuff public and asking for thoughts/advice, to which I'd refer you to Fett Mahler's recent Tantric practise and lust thread: FM appeared to be starting the topic to discuss issues arising from experience, but then displayed an unwillingness to discuss those very issues. That lack of interest in the stated aims of the thread made it seem to me as though a game were being played, possibly one of the "look-how-fucked-up-I-can-get-exhibitionism" school, with the hoped for response being "dude-that's-fucked-up" style ego-stroking. I think each has to be weighed on a case by case basis, and sometimes the difference can be very hard to spot.

2) Any member has a right to reply to any thread, and no one here can operate like some kind of text based Milton Erickson or should be expected to. The agreed response to apparent hate speech on Barbelith is to challenge it and potentially remove it and the person saying it, and this is something that no one wants to change.

My proposed solution is that when someone posts something that appears to be of the unexamined *first draft* school of experiential account we post to the thread a short, concise piece of standard text that any moderator can have saved on their PC ready for the occasion. It will state briefly the implications of making the material public and what kind of responses can be expected. It will offer the choice to lock and delete the thread or delete the post if on reflection the poster doesn't want to open themselves up to the board and hadn't really thought things through. And it also has the side effect of framing the debate for the rest of the board, in that it implies to everyone else without overtly stating it that there may potentially problematic conversation following that may use different analytical tools that people are used to/are expecting. So in the first instance it acts as an explanatory note and a discouragement from posting, but if the person is wanting to go right on ahead anyway then it will hopefully set at least a frame for what is to follow.

There are other ways in which you could use existing functionality... a deleted thread can still receive replies, for example, and so a discussion could effectively be taken off the public board but still continued if required.

What do people think? I'm hoping this leans towards discouraging the use of Barbelith as a psychiatric space but still recognises the inevitability of people trying to do just that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:02 / 28.09.07
Ah, it would appear the thread WAS deleted, in which case I'm no longer confused, and apologise if I've confused anyone else along the way.
 
 
HCE
13:30 / 28.09.07
That sounds like a great idea, and the fact that is uses existing functionality makes it really practical. Hopefully a culture will build up around it where it's not perceived as castigation, but rather as an alert signal for writer and readers alike.

This addresses what I was talking about earlier about creating a space for people who are good at talking compassionately with people whose issues are on the surface at the time. I don't meant to slight anybody I didn't name earlier, but doing this sort of thing with people you don't know, on a message board, is definitely not the same as doing it with a friend or even a stranger on the street.

Thanks so much for the thought you put into this, Seth.
 
 
grant
15:34 / 29.09.07
a short, concise piece of standard text that any moderator can have saved on their PC ready for the occasion.

Hmm. That'd make for a really nice use of our non-existent "flag" function. Stick it on the right side of the opening post...

As it is, it might be better to post the boilerplate in the summary rather than within the thread. Or is that too pushy?
 
 
Papess
16:43 / 29.09.07
I don't think that is pushy at all, Grant. I think it makes more sense, if it is worded correctly, and of course, sensitively.

And thanks Seth, for such a workable and thoughtful idea.
 
 
Seth
00:38 / 30.09.07
With regards coming up with a rough draft of a standard text I'm happy to do it, but it might take a while. I'm going to be away for two weeks from Monday with irregular net access. I care about it though, and I'd like to come up with something. Sorry if I suddenly go radio silent.
 
 
Olulabelle
08:52 / 30.09.07
I think you're definitely the best person to write it Seth, I'm sure we can hang on for that.
 
 
Papess
11:45 / 30.09.07
It's also comparatively easy to mask your real intentions by making this stuff public and asking for thoughts/advice, to which I'd refer you to Fett Mahler's recent Tantric practise and lust thread: FM appeared to be starting the topic to discuss issues arising from experience, but then displayed an unwillingness to discuss those very issues.

Seth: I just want to point out here, that the topic was discarded largely by Roy and GL because it would have been enabling. I think FM realized what was happening to him and then his initial discussion didn't make sense anymore. I don't think it was an "unwillingness" so much as a realization.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:29 / 01.10.07
Yes and it's swung in a much better direction now.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:56 / 04.10.07
hi! I would like to have a more productive discussion of how ethics are related to magical practice. however, the main thread that pops up when I search for the temple for "ethics" appears to be locked.

should I start a new one or is there a good one in place somewhere I can read through and add to?
 
 
grant
20:33 / 04.10.07
Just bumped one - it appears not to be locked.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:56 / 05.10.07
So, the pyrite thread: I really want to lock it but I can't think of a good reason. Can anyone help me out? Should I just leave it alone and hope it dies?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:02 / 05.10.07
If you do, you will in some way be doing kowalski's magical bidding.
 
 
electric monk
14:07 / 05.10.07
I feel the same way, Aunt B., but I can't really give a good reason either. Best to let it sink, I think.

Fool's Gold. Fucking hell.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:23 / 05.10.07
It sort of comes back to the whole conversation above about how barbelith tends to respond to stuff. In some ways, I think a lot of the problems in that thread come from people being a bit frustrated - and therefore snarky - about being offered up something so slight for discussion, so the only way to get an barbelith-type conversation out of it was to look at the various tangential factors that were a lot more interesting/worthy of a critical eye, than what the original poster was actually looking for. Not sure if that's a fair assessment. My brain isn't on properly this afternoon.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:32 / 05.10.07
I'm so achingly tired of this shit.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:34 / 13.10.07
Okay, I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I reckon we need to get a lot more hardnosed about what constitutes appropriate posting in the Temple. We now have yet another person on the board who clearly came here for the magical discussion and who has proceeded to conduct himself poorly in other fora.

I believe that the "Temple cat-flap effect" has been somewhat overstated (the Greenland posse came here for the lab, the Fetch has dragged his shit all over the internet from current affairs fora to occult groups and everything in between, and Zoemancer and Raelian Autopsy found the Switchboard and Headshop equally tempting as soapboxes).

However, it is undeniable that we have a situation now where people with a limited willingness to communicate or engage meaningfully (and often having disturbingly bigoted views) feel that the Temple as a magical/spiritual/occult forum will give them a warm moist environment in which to propagate. It is true that many other magical/spiritual/occult fora turn a blind eye not only to general fnording and lengthy vacuous theorising of the "so who would win a fight out of a Goetic demon and Baron Zauguin" variety, but also to racism, sexism and anti-Semitism.

I'm sick and tired of the apparent faliure to communicate to potential members that these things are not okay in the fucking Temple. For a start, it is not okay to spout shite about how the IJC ate your hamster, or how women make rubbish magicians because they lack the male geek instinct. Plainly anti-Semitic or otherwise racist material should be an automatic airlock. (Sexist material is a bit more of a grey area, partly because there are few things the board as a whole is less willing to recognise.)

But there are other issues which I think are important. The basic level of discourse in the Temple should be kept high. Firstly so there's one publicly viewable occult forum on the web that's not full of untested shite, elaborate theoretical rituals and techniques that never get put into practice, and credulous muppets sitting around going "ooh" at them. But there's another, more subtle issue here, and it is this: lack of rigour and fuzzy thinking actively work to create a breeding ground for bigotry. This whole "oh well that's just like your opinion, we all create our own reality maaaan" bit that looks so soft and fuzzy on the outside? In practice it always but always goes hand in glove with a lazy, thoughtless tolerance for the worst kinds of bigotry and a corresponding refusal to stand up for any kind of principle. Hey, so what if this guy is using Gematria to prove that the IJC was behind 9/11? Doesn't matter! We all create our own reality!

Fuck that.

So there's that. There's also the little matter of whether we consider magic to be a real, active force in the world or not. If you believe that, then it matters whether what you've posted is based on knowledge and experience, or pulled out of your arse. It matters whether you're accomplishing something or just writing magical fanfic.

So I'm dropping the softer mod approach I've used hitherto and going zero tolerance on posts and threads that I do not see as having sufficient merit.

For example: the baby-butter thread? The pyrite thread? Neither of those topics merited more than a quick post to the Stupid Q's thread. Why are we putting up with this shit? Next time this happens, I'll be posting a polite note directing the person concerned to Stupid Q's and putting in for a lock. There is no Earthly reason for us to have to put up with a bunch of content-free threads cluttering the forum, and several good reasons to ensure that we don't.

I'm not talking about going on the attack. We're all n00bs sometime, somewhere, and it can take a little while to find your sealegs here. There's no reason the kind of action I've described cannot be done with courtesy and compassion.

Ah yes, the c-word: Compassion. So often invoked, so little practiced. I'd like to invite those who might feel that the above lacks compassion to extend a little compassion to, for example, the notional woman who has to read the next Epop, or the Jewish people who had to read not only the Fetch's rabid foaming but the defences put forward by his self-appointed posse.

I'd also suggest that it is compassionate to encourage things like a willingness to learn, a willingness to evaluate one's practice in a meaningful way, the development of the skills required and the habit of so doing. I do not believe it is compassionate to enable stagnation, weak approaches, or outright dangerous practices.

Thoughts, input, suggestions? Ativan?
 
 
Quantum
12:13 / 13.10.07
(what's ativan?)

Unless anyone objects, I'm seconding that. We need to act upon our intentions to make the Temple better, and politely locking crap threads is a step toward that. I don't think the pyrite thread had to go the way it did, but it was always going to be likely. When we get unexamined or fnordy threads (and posts) we should be asking for clarification, suggesting writing from experience, then locking if it continues as drivel.
It's important to remember there are lots of places on the web to talk bollocks about the occult, we're not silencing people or oppressing them, just keeping the Temple clean. So I'll be agreeing those locks, and acting on the same premise as MC states above, to keep bigotry out and keep quality high. If that earns us a rep as elitist grayfaces, so be it.
 
 
Papess
13:07 / 13.10.07
So I'm dropping the softer mod approach I've used hitherto and going zero tolerance on posts and threads that I do not see as having sufficient merit.

I thought you were just busy.

For example: the baby-butter thread? The pyrite thread? Neither of those topics merited more than a quick post to the Stupid Q's thread. Why are we putting up with this shit?

I was wondering the same thing. Why wasn't anyone taking action? Was that the "softer mod approach"? It was more of a "hands-off" approach.

Next time this happens, I'll be posting a polite note directing the person concerned to Stupid Q's and putting in for a lock.

Which I would still consider a bit soft-mod, but not in a "hands off" way to let pap take over the Temple. It is balanced approach that allows people to correct their mistake through editing, if possible, or by starting another thread, if feasible.

There is no Earthly reason for us to have to put up with a bunch of content-free threads cluttering the forum, and several good reasons to ensure that we don't.

Completely agree. Any unearthly reasons will be considered on other planets, possibly in space.

I'm not talking about going on the attack. We're all n00bs sometime, somewhere, and it can take a little while to find your sealegs here. There's no reason the kind of action I've described cannot be done with courtesy and compassion.

Absolutely. Attacking is a bad example of what is expected in the first place. If handling oneself with a certain amount of decorum and tact in the Temple is required, then that should still stand even if a troll enters the Temple. Haranguing, IMO, is in bad form even if it is quite tempting.

I agree with the reasons you give for wanting to make the Temple a pap-free environment. I most definitely agree that there is no reason at all to tolerate hate-speech or theories. I don't understand how twisting magickal theory to accommodate one's prejudices is in any way healthy or necessary to a good, well-adjusted magickal practice. As you say, Aunt Beast, there are many other places that will tolerate that, and those people should go there and spout off their narrow-minded, hateful pap.

I was on break for the Fetch fiasco, but I think it is difficult for some to deal with the idea of good-poster-gone-bad and accept that. In the manner that someone who was, (possibly still is), very talented in many respects could hold such contemptuous views. Much like Donny Deutsch's disbelief of Ann Coulter, it is hard to accept that people who are intelligent and educated could be so intolerant and well...ignorant. As Helen Keller said, "The highest result of education is tolerance." So it can be hard to accept intolerance when coming from certain members of the community here. But I believe that we must be ever-vigilant. In the recent case with BiaS, I could barely believe what I was reading coming from a long-time member. I thought someone had stole BiaS' identity. But no matter how brilliant some posts or contributions may be from a member, if anything hateful and prejudicial is involved, the post and maybe the poster need to be removed. There is no reason that we should feel obligated to support that kind of crap here. As

All in all, Aunt Beast, I completely agree with what you have proposed here. Noobies should be guided to make better use of the Stupid Questions thread. Utilizing it first can help gauge whether a question warrants a whole thread, or if there are a few ideas that need fleshing out, as in the case of the Pyrite thread. SO I really like the idea of directing people there or perhaps adding some more substance to the initial post.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:41 / 13.10.07
I was not around for the commencement of the "I just nicked a bit of shiny rock, how can I use it for MAGIC?" thread. I was around for the body-fluids topic, but at that time the OP, zedoktar, was very new and I thought tolerance should be excercised. I was later proved dramatically wrong, hence, in part, the above post.
 
 
Papess
14:12 / 13.10.07
Well, that would explain it.

I find it interesting that zedoktor is peddling pap elsewhere on Barbelith.

I do understand how difficult it is to learn how to post here on Barbelith. There are many different levels of comprehension and education. My own education is pitiful and I have really struggled over the years to make meaningful posts, and especially substantial topics and thread starters. It is really hard to teach these skills in a classroom, let alone in an online forum. However, if there is a quick-guide method of referencing these expectations and protocol other than the wiki, then that would be really helpful. Then again, I do understand that would mean noobies would have to read it, and that doesn't always happen. At least there would be no excuse at all for any pap, if the expectations can't be missed. Is there a possibility of stickies or do people here not like them?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:24 / 13.10.07
I was thinking of a Temple orientation thread. We don't have stickies and I would not hold my breath on getting that bit of functionality, but such a thread could be periodically bumped.
 
 
Papess
14:34 / 13.10.07
An Orientation Thread sounds like a great idea.
 
  

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