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Moderating the Temple

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:28 / 05.03.07
Granny's reality tunnel apart, I seriously do not know how much longer I can go on having this same fucking fight. If you're not invested in the Temple as a forum or in magic generally, I guess it looks pretty ridiculous: just Whackjob A and Whackjob B getting in a big old whackjob fight over their respective whackjobbery. Doesn't make much of a difference which flavour is in favour since it's all baloney anyhow.

But it frustrates me more and more everytime this happens. At least Nettie was upfront about not having any kind of a magical practice in the sense of trying to affect anything; in the thread above he not only admits to but celebrates an entirely solipsistic practice motivated by and geared towards nothing exept sending up everyone else's silly superstitious old workings, and elsewhere he not only admitted to but celebrated the use of NLP techniques for nothing more than creating distress in others. Which is, you know, a thing. I guess if your only source of joy in this world is egoic masturbation and making life just that little bit more mindlessly unpleasant for your fellow man, it would be cruel to deprive you of it.

What gets me more than the Netaungrots of this world, shit-filled though they be, are those who have pretentions to an actual magic practice but who do not, in fact, actually do very much more than Nettie-types yet who nonetheless see fit to spout off on the subject. The global peace sigilisers, the astral warriors, the "Dion Fortune stopped WWII, well you can't prove she didn't, ahaaa!"-ers, the Grand PoohBahs Of The Most Noble Order Of Whateverthefuckitisthisweek with their oh-so-secret grades and codes--if it's not one it's a-fucking-nother. When I lose my temper in the Temple and yell at someone, I'm not trying to provoke a response or show everyone what a shouty shouty Mordant I can be. I lose it because I lose it. This shit pisses me the fuck off. It might sound snobby but there are times when being a Temple mod feels like being holed up in a shopping mall, picking off the zombie hordes one headshot at a time. And sometimes--increasingly--I want chuck my gun off the roof and let the zombies take over.

I don't mean that everyone has to do things my way. In fact, I'd rather they didn't. (It's my way, I had to damn well work for it and I don't see why I should let anyone else have a go of it.) All I want is some indication that whatever it is you do, you're actually doing it and not just talking about it. Sorcery, herbalism, sigil art, thaumaturgy, theurgy, martial arts, dreamwork, astral travel, whatver; polytheistic, pantheistic, suitheistic, atheistic, whatever. If you have developed a magical practice that consists largely of complex skateboard tricks in honour of the Phantom Limbo Dancer, provided you developed that practice through your own personal experience, that's cool. What. The. Fuck. Ever. Just be prepared to show your working.

For me it comes down to this: Either you believe (with the obvious am-I-bonkers reservations) that magic is real and it fucking WORKS, or you don't. If you don't, fine. If you're working from the psychology model where what you're trying to change with your rituals is your own mind/self/behaviour etc--fine. That's perfectly rational and valid. If you don't believe in any of this shit, if you're just an interested sceptic--fine. But if you do buy into it in any way shape or form, if you honestly think that yeah, maybe you can use magic (in its broadest sense) to change the world around you--then what are you doing? Why are you regurgitating the same stale formulae, unexamined and undigested? Why are you pissing about with derivative Matrix fantasies where you and your buddies destroy capitalism by fighting Ronald McDonald on the astral plane? Why are you setting up the five-millionth wank for World Peace drive? Why are you printing off the five-millionth batch of sigil stickers to wake up!!23! the greyfaces? (Actually it's worse, most of these guys only even talk about setting up peacewanks. Yeah, we should totally do that, let's set up a Geocities page. Sure, pass it over *ffffft* hey, are there any Cheetos left?) And if the answer is "I'm new at this and it seemed like a good idea," why, when challenged, do you spit out your dummy and run whining back to Lj-land to kvetch about how meen everyone is? Do you think everyone else sits around like you, pulling stuff out of their arses and inventing oh-so-clever workings 90% of which never actually get worked?

If magic is real then magic matters. It's a way of affecting the world, something you can bring to bear besides the fifty p. in the charity box, the email round-robin or that little five-yearly cross on a piece of paper. A way of making this largely revolting world suck just a tiny bit less, if only for yourself, if not for others. Why would you turn your nose up at that? Why would you piss that away?

What in the name of all that's holy are you DOING?
 
 
*
17:50 / 05.03.07
Can this go on the wiki, Mordant? Or better, be tattooed inside the skull of every single poster who sets foot in Temple for the first time?
 
 
Tsuga
01:10 / 06.03.07
I don't really follow the temple or believe much of anything, but I checked out the Nettie shit and that person seems abrasive as fuck-all, combative for the sake of it, and just trying to get a rise. But really, maybe it's just because I want to throttle people that write "LMAO" as a rebuttal.
 
 
Quantum
10:24 / 06.03.07
I seriously do not know how much longer I can go on having this same fucking fight.

Then maybe it's time to try a more hands-on approach to moderation. Let's try draconian anti-asshattery measures for a while- if we're going to be accused of evil mod censorship anyway, let's at least have less guff to deal with. We've given the hands-off approach a fair run, let's contrast it with a more heavy-handed period and see if there's any cost to balance the benefit of not having to have the same fight again. I'm thinking most posters don't need moderation, the only time any modding beyond typos is called for is when someone's being an arse. In which case, why indulge them? Let them go elsewhere while complaining merrily about the groupthink grayface barbelith people, and happily discuss the merits of unicorns as familiars over pegasi/anti-capitalist sigils over astral battles with Bill Gates/dry cleaning your cloak of invisibility etc.

Can we Mjolnerate for a while? Like moderating with a hammer?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:26 / 06.03.07
Tsuga: Your instincts are good.
 
 
Quantum
11:57 / 06.03.07
The last straw was sending copies of deleted guff to a troll and getting called a censor and a cowardly hypocrite in return. Next time I'm just going to propose deletion immediately and let someone else be the dove-like voice of mercy. I'm now Quantum the hawk.
 
 
electric monk
02:28 / 08.03.07
It is happening again.

I've directed him here. We'll see how that goes.
 
 
electric monk
03:34 / 08.03.07
And dagnabit:

Discordian ritual for me, is finding those with viewpoints radically different than my own and engaging honestly and openly with them. And definitely pulling no punches. Call it bastardized tantra, trolling, asshattery, standing on your hind legs, it doesn't matter.

I think that matters a great deal.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
06:13 / 08.03.07
At least Nettie was upfront about not having any kind of a magical practice in the sense of trying to affect anything; in the thread above he not only admits to but celebrates an entirely solipsistic practice motivated by and geared towards nothing exept sending up everyone else's silly superstitious old workings, and elsewhere he not only admitted to but celebrated the use of NLP techniques for nothing more than creating distress in others.

This of course is 98% bollocks. The unhealthy kind. Generalizations like these serve to cloud your ability to see clearly. You've made up your mind as to my intents and purposes, so why should I discuss them with you when I can help you trip over your inaccurate judgments?


What gets me more than the Netaungrots of this world, shit-filled though they be, are those who have pretentions to an actual magic practice but who do not, in fact, actually do very much more than Nettie-types yet who nonetheless see fit to spout off on the subject.

Your magic is bigger and more actual than my magic.


And sometimes--increasingly--I want chuck my gun off the roof and let the zombies take over.

Perhaps at this point we should put the functionality of your magical practice under scrutiny?


All I want is some indication that whatever it is you do, you're actually doing it and not just talking about it. Sorcery, herbalism, sigil art, thaumaturgy, theurgy, martial arts, dreamwork, astral travel, whatver; polytheistic, pantheistic, suitheistic, atheistic, whatever. If you have developed a magical practice that consists largely of complex skateboard tricks in honour of the Phantom Limbo Dancer, provided you developed that practice through your own personal experience, that's cool. What. The. Fuck. Ever. Just be prepared to show your working.

Why should I show you if in your eyes I'm just a solipsistic NLP monster out for the sweet blood of innocents?


[Magic is] a way of making this largely revolting world suck just a tiny bit less, if only for yourself, if not for others. Why would you turn your nose up at that? Why would you piss that away?

Most "magic" I've observed is an excuse to stagnate within a paradigm and hallucinate making the world a better place, while in actuality, not only the world, but your capacity to help society continues rotting. Most.


I don't really follow the temple or believe much of anything, but I checked out the Nettie shit and that person seems abrasive as fuck-all, combative for the sake of it, and just trying to get a rise. But really, maybe it's just because I want to throttle people that write "LMAO" as a rebuttal.

Maybe you need to LYAO a bit more.

Do what thou will shall be the whole of the lail. Lulz are the lail, lulz under lol.



The last straw was sending copies of deleted guff to a troll and getting called a censor and a cowardly hypocrite in return. Next time I'm just going to propose deletion immediately and let someone else be the dove-like voice of mercy. I'm now Quantum the hawk.

Why don't you delete all the following equivalent bullshit by Mordant?

Oh! Nettie is this kitten, is he? I'd forgotten all about him, but then we get so many smug, self-absorbed, half-bright Fnordy McFnordpantses swinging through here to "save us from ourselves" with made-up words and lousy sentence structure it's hard to keep them all straight. Nettie distinguishes himself by being the fnordpants who's learned (a minimal amound of) NLP motivated purely by the desire to manipulate people and create distress where he cannot successfully manipulate. Gotcha. I'll make a note for next time.

I never wanted this thread. I wanted to say my piece and allow it to continue developing of it's own free will. Please stop making me the centerpiece of this thing before I lose control of my bowels.

Taking a quick shufti at my Nettie/English dictionary, I get: I wanted to get up on my hind legs and spout off without being challenged. I am now being called on my shit and it gives me a funny feeling in my tummy. You're mean. Why can't you be more like my Lj friends list?

Pickle, nobody made you the centerpiece of anything except you. If you choose to make rude, critical, poorly-written posts (hint: typos and grammatical errors are not poetry, and making up words does not make you into the living RAW) you are likely to find that some of your boardmates take an aggressive interest in what you write. This is a messageboard. People read what you write and are allowed to tell you if they don't like it. Wear a hat.

Now, since Barbelith is unlikely to become mcfnordypantsfora.com in the short to medium term, you have two choices here. You can either accept that most people here don't want to read this crap and find a way to engage meaningfully, or you can accept that most people here don't want to read this crap and fuck off somewhere else. It's your call, although I seriously doubt your ability to cope with the former and would strongly recommend the latter.


Somehow when moderators fling entire post's worth of shit, it smells good? Ah, you don't like me either, so you can just censor my rebuttals while Mordant blathers on and on about how I'm just another livejournal jackoff. Which is not only totally unsubstantiated but also one of the most trite of possible insults.

I repeat. Cowardly and hypocritical.

Let me parse something you seemed to have missed:

Laughing at how you simultaneously made me the star of the thread AND hated me for it has very nearly cost me control of my mighty sphincter. You even had the temerity to suggest that I somehow stole your locus of control. I could hardly breathe I was laughing so hard.

Lail FTW.

All this could have been avoided if you just didn't take yourself so seriously and stayed focused on ideas and practices.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
06:33 / 08.03.07
Discordian ritual for me, is finding those with viewpoints radically different than my own and engaging honestly and openly with them. And definitely pulling no punches. Call it bastardized tantra, trolling, asshattery, standing on your hind legs, it doesn't matter.

I think that matters a great deal.


It doesn't matter to me. The ideas are loose and the commonalities outweigh the differences. All of them can be put into an endearing, dissmissive, or confused context.

Why is it of such import to Electric Monkey?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:09 / 08.03.07
Ah, well. Is there any will to start a banning thread, here, or is the drag factor of dimscordians just something that the Temple is ready to tolerate?
 
 
Princess
08:15 / 08.03.07
I'm glad that this argument has moved here. For reasons some of you are aware of I've not really been ab to engage with the Temple this week.

However, that thread is close to my heart and I really like what saintmae started.

Nettie, if you want to talk about the pitfalls of the magical/neo-pagan paradigm then I suggest you move the conversation to the magic as a maladaptive coping device thread. As it is you are rotting the thread.

More than that, you are being intentionally aggressive and unthinkingly dismissive. You say you are all about engaging with other world-views. Right now you are not engaging. Your manner and attitude stop people from engaging from you. You are being preachy and abrasive, and nothing is more likely to make people not care about your message.

And bear in mind that it isn't up to us to decript your obtuse statements. There are a lot of people out their trying to convert us, if we listened to them all we wouldn't have time for drinking tea or having sex or whatever else. We have to filter out those things which aren't going to going to interest us. You, regardless of the truth of it, are coming across as uninteresting. There isn't a magic worker here who hasn't come across your ideas before. Or at least that part of your ideas that is manifest in your posts. The Barbelith community would normally ask peopl to unpack and explain a bit further. We are people who would like to learn and expand. But if we see nothing of immediate interest and see no proof that you can engage meanignfully (and standing on a soapbox saying "your all delusional loonies in stagnant thought-pools" isn't engaging meaningfully) then why should we make the effort?

Your inability to leave your very confrontational but ultimately innefective communication paradigm is stopping you from achieving what you want. Possibly you should be focusing more on your own personal growth than on ours. Eris, imaginary or not, never asked her followers to inflict chaos. She didn't ask people to blow other peoples minds. The Principia did not instruct you to come here and get all up in our faces. This is about you. It's about you and the stuff you need to change.

Let him without sin etc.

And please, stop implying that Barbelith is closed minded. We really aren't. The Temple has a wide range of practicioners talking. It has many non-practicioners talking. It has Atheists and Polytheists and Henotheists and Gnostics and Voduisants and Christians. We have threads that challenge religous belief, we have threads that question the psychological health of magical belief, we even have threads for self-mockery and self critique. The evidence would suggest we are not closed minded.

There are places for your opinions here. What there isn't a place for is disrespectful abuse of other peoples beliefs. We will respect you and we will listen but only on the proviso that you in turn will respect and listen to our opinions. If you want somewhere to just rant at us then you should get a blog. You could call it "Imaginary Eris Hates Barbelith Because They Have Closed Minds And Have Victimised Me Though I Am Nought But An Ontological Terrorist And Prophet of Logic".
 
 
illmatic
08:23 / 08.03.07
Do we need to start a thread or does the evidence speak for itself? I don't have time to start one, I'm afraid.

Anyway, N. hasn't added one iota of decent content to the board, and is now trolling. I'd be happy to see him banned.
 
 
Princess
09:18 / 08.03.07
Well, unless someone comes to be his advecote let's just ban. I'm tired of ranting Discordians.

I'm not going to presume to talk for Eris, she'd bitchslap me if I did, but if I were the head of a religion based on creativity and change then I might be getting very bored of this.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:08 / 08.03.07
I've started the banning thread.

At least Nettie was upfront about not having any kind of a magical practice in the sense of trying to affect anything; in the thread above he not only admits to but celebrates an entirely solipsistic practice motivated by and geared towards nothing exept sending up everyone else's silly superstitious old workings, and elsewhere he not only admitted to but celebrated the use of NLP techniques for nothing more than creating distress in others.

This of course is 98% bollocks. The unhealthy kind. Generalizations like these serve to cloud your ability to see clearly. You've made up your mind as to my intents and purposes, so why should I discuss them with you when I can help you trip over your inaccurate judgments?

Please, by all means feel free to defend yourself. You could start by explaining your conduct in the threads I've linked to; your hostile and dismissive attitude in the 2005 topic, for example. You could then link to the many intelligent and well-reasoned posts where you outline your theories and personal practice. Look, I'll even start the wool on for you.

Your magic is bigger and more actual than my magic.

You're damn skippy it is.

Perhaps at this point we should put the functionality of your magical practice under scrutiny?

What makes you think I apply my magical practice to Barbelith? I've got better things to do than sit around hexing fnordtrolls. There seems to be a new one every couple of months and snake-shed is so expensive these days.

Why should I show you [magical practice] if in your eyes I'm just a solipsistic NLP monster out for the sweet blood of innocents?

You're not a monster. You're not important enough to be a monster. You're just a prat. As for why--because Barbelith is a community and that community has certain minimal standards of behaviour. One of those standards is that when posting in the Temple, you are prepared to have your practice challenged and to defend it coherently and with a minimum of toychucking.


[Magic is] a way of making this largely revolting world suck just a tiny bit less, if only for yourself, if not for others. Why would you turn your nose up at that? Why would you piss that away?

Most "magic" I've observed is an excuse to stagnate within a paradigm and hallucinate making the world a better place, while in actuality, not only the world, but your capacity to help society continues rotting. Most.

The vast majority of self-proclaimed magician's practices are just that, yeah. Totally agree with you there. I'd argue that's not really magic, though, since it does not affect change on anything. I'd also argue that one reason the Temple is a rather spikier place than your kittenish hide might be accustomed to is that we tend to try and get people to look outside their paradigms and find ways of doing things that actually, y'know, do things. Id suggest reading some of the threads on the subject, such as the "Magic as a maladaptive coping device" thread linked to above. But then you'd have to actually read threads that aren't about you, and possibly have your assumptions shaken up a tiny bit. I do know how you hate that.

The last straw was sending copies of deleted guff to a troll and getting called a censor and a cowardly hypocrite in return. Next time I'm just going to propose deletion immediately and let someone else be the dove-like voice of mercy. I'm now Quantum the hawk.

Why don't you delete all the following equivalent bullshit by Mordant? [Lengthy post redacted]


I'm happy for that post to get deleted as it's served its purpose: outlining my problems with Netaungrot's conduct and drawing people's attention to previous activity of a similar sort. (Incidentally--man, that Lj crack really got to you, huh? I'm sorry, but you're such a sensitive kitten! "Your Lj" has become a kind of shorthand around these parts for "those corners of the net where you are largely surrounded by backslapping pals and are likely to hear little dissent." Where everybody knows your name, and they're always glad you came, in other words. Not necessarily an actual Lj flist.)

Laughing at how you simultaneously made me the star of the thread AND hated me for it has very nearly cost me control of my mighty sphincter. You even had the temerity to suggest that I somehow stole your locus of control. I could hardly breathe I was laughing so hard.

Awww, who's a clever little Nettie! You didn't steal anything, pickle. You engaged in behaviour likely to piss us all off and behold! Off the multitude were pissed. There's nothing big or clever about it.

All this could have been avoided if you just didn't take yourself so seriously and stayed focused on ideas and practices.

We do focus on ideas and practices. Since you are either incapable of presenting or unwilling to present your ideas and practices in a coherent form, we're left with a big heap of rude, abrasive crap. I for one have better things to do than sift through piles of shite looking for one or two turds that might be worth a quick polish.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:39 / 08.03.07
Discordian ritual for me, is finding those with viewpoints radically different than my own and engaging honestly and openly with them.

Really. Do let me know when you get started.

Care to show the class where you have engaged with said viewpoints anywhere on the board in any meaningful way, let alone "openly and honestly?" You know one thing people do when they engage "openly and honestly"? They ask questions. They try to understand what beliefs are being held and then go on to engage with those beliefs. You haven't bothered to do that, you've just Tarzanned into the forum on your vine with a yodel of "LOLOLOLOLOLOL!"

And definitely pulling no punches.

Sucks when the other guy doesn't pull any punches either, doesn't it.


Call it bastardized tantra,

WTF has anything you've claimed to be doing, let alone anything you've actually done, got to do with tantra, bastardised or otherwise? Sounds like self-aggrandisment to me.

trolling, asshattery, standing on your hind legs,

Now that's a much better fit.
 
 
electric monk
11:55 / 08.03.07
Why is it of such import to Electric Monkey?

Because it says, in very clear language, that you plan to continue on as you have been. Because it says, in very clear language, that you've not taken anything anyone's had to say to you on board. Because it says, in very clear language, that the community doesn't matter to you near as much as your own thoughts and opinions. If I could see something constructive in what you claim to be part of your practice, I might defend it. If you changed tactics occassionally to, say, straight Devil's Advocate and stated a plain position which you could back up WITHOUT telling people they need to break out of their wombs, there might be a case to be made that perhaps you should be able to remain a part of this community. As it is, this situation seems pretty clear-cut to me. There is no reason for you to be here, and I'd hazard a guess that you'll be banned at the first available opportunity.

UNLESS, you can start providing links to back the case you're trying to make.
 
 
Quantum
14:01 / 08.03.07
And definitely pulling no punches

Well, allow me to retort in kind- you're a hopelessly self-indulgent, arrogant, closed-minded and undereducated troll with no apparent ability to take things in but only to spout shit out, like a giant cornucopia of faeces, gushing neverending runny bum gunge out at a torrential rate and spattering everone nearby with your ill-informed and worthless excuses for posts. You have nothing worth saying, and it's been said so many times before it's now a running joke 23FNORD!!

You seem to think you are somehow educating us from a position of geater understanding. You're not. You don't know what you're talking about. You're falling into a mental trap constructed by your habitual attitude of superiority based on your teenage behaviours surviving virtually unchanged into adulthood, and unconsciously dressing up your common-as-dirt conformity as ontological terrorism. You need to break out of the mental prison you've made for yourself and experience something fresh and challenging, and switch from your rigidly combatitive reality tunnel to something more open-minded.

Haven't you read the Principia?
 
 
· N · E · T ·
21:38 / 08.03.07
The evidence would suggest we are not closed minded.

You want to ban me for a few rude comments and the behavior of a few of your moderators who have behaved akin to a basketball flop or two year old, depending on the intentions you ascribe to them. I said some things in bad taste and they made a melodramatic show of how offensive I was being and asked me aggressive and critical questions within the thread that pushed it more and more off topic and more and more towards mere shit flinging.

They should be held at least to the same standard as me, and ideally a higher one, since they are in a position of authority.

Yes, I should have been more careful with my words, but Mordant and Quantum should have been more careful in how they reacted to them. Their reaction NEVER is my responsibility. I said some provocative things but that doesn't mean I'm responsible for how you choose to react to me.

Why are they not responsible for jumping immediately into character attacks? I can't fathom how they want to ban me being abrasive, but in no way can look at their own behavior as being unproductive. Which I don't think it was.

I see the entire thing as a useful experience and relevant to Discordian Ritual. Part of the question being asked is how we interpret Discordia. My interpretation often appears to be trolling to the outside eye and yes, sometimes that's all it amounts to. Ad aspera per aspera. However, if by your measuring stick, being abrasive and mean has no place in a Discordian thread then apply it to both parties, not just me.



You, regardless of the truth of it, are coming across as uninteresting.

Irony. You collectively dedicated a small book to what you think is me and claim it's not interesting.



But if we see nothing of immediate interest and see no proof that you can engage meanignfully (and standing on a soapbox saying "your all delusional loonies in stagnant thought-pools" isn't engaging meaningfully) then why should we make the effort?

I never called you all delusional loonies. I said that what most people call magic is delusional stagnation. Which some of you even agreed with me about! Stop trying to twist my words around to fit what you've assumed about me. Or don't be surprised when I laugh at you for it.


What makes you think I apply my magical practice to Barbelith? I've got better things to do than sit around hexing fnordtrolls.

Why should I apply my magical practice to Barbelith, then? Love the double standard don't you?


You could start by explaining your conduct in the threads I've linked to; your hostile and dismissive attitude in the 2005 topic, for example.

You continue to demonstrate that hostility and dissmissive attitudes are fair game, chap. Also, welcome to 2007.


You could then link to the many intelligent and well-reasoned posts where you outline your theories and personal practice.

And give you more avenues to attack me? Sure bub, I'll get right on that.


You didn't steal anything, pickle. You engaged in behaviour likely to piss us all off and behold! Off the multitude were pissed.

So, you're not allowed to say things that are likely to piss off the majority. However, it is perfectly acceptable to do and say anything in response to a minority opinion that pisses you off? Even ban that opinion? Sounds like a hefty dose of groupthink between you and a few others, and yes that is hilarious. Frustrating but hilarious.


Because it says, in very clear language, that you plan to continue on as you have been. Because it says, in very clear language, that you've not taken anything anyone's had to say to you on board. Because it says, in very clear language, that the community doesn't matter to you near as much as your own thoughts and opinion.

Most of what you've said to me amounts to name-calling and unoriginal insults. The community does matter to me, especially it's ability to disagree and make jokes. I have no problem with your shit-flinging at me. What gets me is how you want to ban me for what you perceive as shit-flinging yet do as much of it as you please.


If I could see something constructive in what you claim to be part of your practice, I might defend it.

Heated verbal and written exchanges are a part of life. And they should be. People put beliefs on a pedestal so they don't get examined when it's imperative to continually examine them. In order to facilitate my own re-examination, I regularly put myself in the midst of people of contrasting viewpoints. On the internet there's a tendency for this to devolve into flaming. But all is not lost. Often insults carry truths about where we're at that are near impossible to convey without the catalyst of anger. Save that Mordant thinks that the forums I call home are a place for slapping each other on the back when in actuality, that place is full of asshats I disagree with on fundamental issues. However, when our conversation fails, we have recourse to laugh at it. If you can't laugh at your own and others failures, what recourse do you have?

Censorship.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:21 / 08.03.07
So, you're not allowed to say things that are likely to piss off the majority.

Nope. You can say pretty much what you like round here, within certain limits (no racism, no sexism, no holocaust-denying, none of which you have ever engaged in as far as I can see). What you do have to do is give a decent account of yourself. I've gone into this a bit in my bannination thread, but it bears repeating: the board in general and the Temple in particular are host to a wide variety of often contradictory opinion. We deal with that in a variety of ways, but mostly by being respectful of another poster's opinion whilst being clear about where
we stand.

However, it is perfectly acceptable to do and say anything in response to a minority opinion that pisses you off?

No. A lot of things are not acceptable around here. Harrassment is one. Trolling is another. You seem to be feeling harrassed; looks like a lot of other people around here are feeling trolled.

Even ban that opinion?

Not usually, no. Unless the opinion is something along the lines of "women, nasty bitches all of them" or "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are ALL TRUE!!!" in which case, yes, it's wicked banned. "Magic is bullshit" on the other hand is a perfectly acceptable opinion held by, I would think, the vast majority of people on the board.

So... you believe that magic (something you still haven't really defined, BTW; I'm assuming you're referring to certain kinds of ritual magic, but beyond that I confess myself to be at a loss) is superstitous; you regard paganism and (I feel we can safely assume) any kind of theistic belief in much the same light. Discordia, for you, represents both an articulation of that belief and a means of countering what you see as superstition. Am I right so far? Dude, that's not the kind of belief anyone here is going to have a problem with. It becomes problematic here when you express it badly. When instead of outlining what you think and why you think that way, you frame your statement of belief as "I'm right and you guys are wrong" and lard it heavily with rage and insults.

The Temple's forum description reads "Faith, magic and mysticism, bodywork, and applied psychology." That's a very broad set of criteria which can easily include your belief set and your opinions. However, it also includes a lot of opposing opinions, just as firmly held and just as important to the people who hold them. You failed to respect that and people are responding accordingly.

Wasn't the message, dude. Or the messenger. Just the shit-scented notepaper.

Anyhow, I'm going to bed. I'll get back to all of this in the morning after sleeeeep and tea.
 
 
electric monk
02:00 / 09.03.07
Most of what you've said to me amounts to name-calling and unoriginal insults. The community does matter to me, especially it's ability to disagree and make jokes. I have no problem with your shit-flinging at me. What gets me is how you want to ban me for what you perceive as shit-flinging yet do as much of it as you please.

I feel I have given as good as I've gotten. If you feel that this is in error, I encourage you to provide links to the relevant posts and highlight where I have crossed a line.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:40 / 09.03.07
Might I suggest that moderators lock this thread until some sort of consensus is reached in the other thread so the discussion is had in one place and not on multiple fronts?
 
 
Quantum
14:51 / 09.03.07
Or let's just agree to discuss it over there.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:15 / 09.03.07
That's always worked so well in past...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:25 / 09.03.07
Nggg. I see your point, Lady, but I'm reluctant to see this thread get locked. Can we agree that Netaungrot-related stuff gets done in the ban thread (if he posts here, we can cut'n'paste the post and respond to it there) and see how that goes? Then lockage can happen if that doesn't work out.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:31 / 18.03.07
Oooohkay. The dust has settled, the hatchet has been buried, and the sun has set on another Temple spat. I've been guiltily reviewing my contributions to same, and also to other, similar contretemps in the past.

In this most recent episode, I'm prepared to accept that the poster had a genuine point he was trying to make, and had just chosen a mode of speech that had a bit too much in common with trolls past.

However, this is frequently not the case. We get people in the Temple who decide in their infinate wisdom to to shatter our reality tunnels!11!23 with weak, derivative, uninspired or just plain stupid ideas (sometimes obscuring same with sloppy or deliberately convoluted writing). Take Operation Coincidence Driver. Even before everyone realised the OP was a Holocaust-denying shitbird and pulled out in disgust, the thread had gone down the pan with people suggesting all manner of bullshit targets and shoehorning like it was going out of fashion. Then there was The Invisibles: A Call To Arms, where in a semi-intelligable post Ctrl+C'd from his Livejournal the topic starter outlined what seemed to be a shared dreamwork project based around The Invisibles. And on and on, for at least as long as I've been involved with this board.

I don't think an anger response is unjustified or that I was hugely out of line in my responses. But there has got to be a better way of handling this kind of sitch. I hate having rows, even internet rows, they make my stomach hurt, and increasingly I feel like that's all I ever do. There's got to be a better way.

People, what am I doing wrong here?
 
 
Quantum
23:19 / 18.03.07
Fucked if I know. The balance between keeping the Temple high quality and avoiding spats and rows is not a line easily walked. If you let people repeat the crazy antics of trolls past as though they are new people get fatigued and leave the forum, if you jump on people too early you look like teh meen censoring moderator or a snarkypants.
We want to avoid a playpen, but also avoid a Temple filled with fights. With such a varied group and such an impoverished medium, it's going to be difficult and can't possibly always work.

What I mean is, it's not you. It's the situation we're in.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:22 / 19.03.07
(On the subject of the Invisibles guy I think that's just a byproduct of the board. Since my insisting a while back that this place had nothing to do with Morrison I was directed to the thread on Ellis's old futurism board 'Die Puny Humans' where some of the members where seriously insisting that the geeks on that board could start their own Global Frequency in the real world.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:03 / 21.03.07
What I mean is, it's not you. It's the situation we're in.

*makes vaguely non-agreeing noises*

You say that, but I can't avoid the observation that the constant in all my internets spats is, well, me. There's got to be a healthier, more constructive response that I'm missing. Like I say, I don't think I've been out of line in either this case or the examples I linked to, or I'd have apologised. What I do think is that there is a mode of engagement, of communication, that I am missing. It doesn't help that in the past when I've done the nice-reasonable-putty-uppy thing it's been baked into a large custard pie before being chucked back in my face (*coffDEDIcoff*).

Part of the problem may be that as I broaden my circle of internet connections in the online occult community, I'm coming to Barbelith increasingly frazzled. When I was mostly posting just here, I'd just be dealing with the problems that arise here. Over the last couple of years, though (since that-thing-in-2005), I've found it harder and harder to get the kinds of instruction and information I need in just one place so I've joined other communities. But what that's meant is that along with valuable input and vital connections, I've been dealing with a lot more ick. Without getting into tedious detail, there are a lot of guys out there with very big axes to grind when it comes to people like me; I don't come into the Temple glowing from a nice warm bath of support and approval, or even tepid indifference. I think it's affecting the way I deal with problem posters on the board, though, and that's not really fair to people here.

I reckon it's time to either evolve a new, more effective strategy or just hand in my badge and accept that the Temple is eventualy just going to become one more pit o fnordwank. I'm honestly asking for suggestions here. Right now all I can think of is "find alas and eat hir brain" and I don't think that'd go down very well.
 
 
Quantum
11:45 / 21.03.07
Mmm. If you're bringing hostility hangover from elsewhere, and feeling drained and short of spoons, perhaps you should take it easy for a while. Rather than burn out, take a rest and hope someone else deals with any problems that arise. It sounds like you're taking on too much at the moment, would throttling down a gear here (Mod-wise I mean) give you the free energy to deal with the asshats elsewhere? If you're stressed, I think it's better to step back a bit rather than try to fight on too many fronts at once. It's easy to slip into a combatative mindset when you're under attack, but unless you have godlike strength or a magic hammer or something you can end up knackered. And if you get knackered and despondent at the Sisyphean struggle you might leave, and then where would we be? My life would be harder for a start, and THAT CAN'T HAPPEN. Get me?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:59 / 21.03.07
It seems to me as if you've lost the middle response. The one inbetween hardcore gun slay and baking cookies like mummy used to. If you're not enjoying the gun slay then the way everyone else does it is handing the password to someone trusted to change and lock you out temporarily. That means you can't impulse post but more importantly it relieves you of a lot of what you might consider your necessary responsibility. Even if you know what's going on you can't address it unless you get your password back and that's only done for serious reason and there's that moderator/reader perspective that suddenly gains clarity because they're separated. A lot of us seem to have done it in the last year.
 
 
grant
13:59 / 21.03.07
Right now all I can think of is "find alas and eat hir brain" and I don't think that'd go down very well.

Eh, she's got plenty to go around.

I think this is your way forward.

That or else refusing to post when ticked. Come back a few minutes (or hours) later.
 
 
Quantum
17:29 / 21.03.07
I think this is your way forward.

Then you can change your name to Zombie Carnival. BRAIIIINS!!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:56 / 22.03.07
It seems to me as if you've lost the middle response. The one inbetween hardcore gun slay and baking cookies like mummy used to.

Thing is, I thought I pretty much was operating on the middle response. I don't think I really do go for the hardcore gunslay; I do register anger if I think it's warrented, but I don't immediately start screaming and yelling insults at someone as soon as they wind me up. I'd be perfectly happy to embrace the cookies if that would accomplish anything, it just never seems to work. My middle-response just doesn't seem very effective, possibly because deep down I'm expecting it not to work.
 
 
jentacular dreams
11:02 / 22.03.07
Maybe because people expect hardcore gunslay if they do step over the line, the middle response doesn't really get the respect it deserves?
 
  

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