BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Moderating the Temple

 
  

Page: 1 ... 2223242526(27)2829303132... 35

 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
00:52 / 14.10.07
Aunt Beast, this question is without prejudice: have you ever wondered whether it is you, and what seems to me to be the massive power issues you have, that is the problem here (excepting, of course, the very nasty shit posted by some unaware or just plain bastard sexist / racist etc posters)?
 
 
Papess
01:36 / 14.10.07
Shut up Magick Johnson. I have had to tell you this before and I hate repeating myself. This isn't about AB/MC personal issues. She made some very valid statements about some very valid concerns.

Again, what the fuck is your issue here, Medeiros? I am very critical of power-trippers and I can tell you MJ, Glenn, whoever...that this is not a power issue. I can't see that at all. What I am reading from MC is someone who is tired and frustrated with posters like yourself who are inflammatory and ignorant and make her job as a moderator here tedious.

Fuck, is there a case for banning Magick Johnson/Glenn Medeiros? I for one have had it with his misogynistic remarks and patronizing BS.
 
 
HCE
05:25 / 14.10.07
Glenn/magic/horse/beef, didn't you have enough of this back in the thread about banning Mathlete? It's like watching somebody repeatedly run facefirst into a wall. By this point, I doubt that anybody can be enjoying the spectacle. Give it a rest, dude, it's really uncomfortable to watch.
 
 
*
08:21 / 14.10.07
I don't see how you think you can claim to be asking that question without prejudice, Glenn.
 
 
illmatic
09:16 / 14.10.07
Just joining the general chorus of approval of MC's post, and saying "FUCKING SHUT UP" to GM.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:01 / 14.10.07
Thanks, Glen. I was wondering whether it'd be you or Granny that'd show up to have a pop first.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:24 / 14.10.07
I don't think GM should be made to feel as if he's been conceptually hung upside down in a pair of beige Dockers, and made to take a leak.

Although that, no doubt, would amuse some of you.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:39 / 14.10.07
Glenn> Have you ever stopped to wonder why it is that most people here like and respect AB, whereas they think you're a prick?

Granny> Do shut up, please.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:43 / 14.10.07
They don't like me. They FEAR me. Because of my MASSIVE POWER ISSUES.

All shall love me, and despair!
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:11 / 14.10.07
They FEAR me. Because of my MASSIVE POWER ISSUES.

Perhaps if you wore a dress with pretty flowers ... costume broaches, that kind of stuff?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:15 / 14.10.07
More usefully, what would be useful to have in this notional orientation thread? On the flipside of the zedoktars and Morphs, I sometimes see new people saying things like "I hope I haven't broken any rules with this post" or worrying that including terms like "astral" will get them dismissed out of hand, so we evidently need something in place that'll allay unfounded fears as well as challenging genuinely problematic behaviour.
 
 
Quantum
11:58 / 14.10.07
I heartily agree. It seems the considerate posters are afraid they'll get flamed, and the idiots just wade right on in. I think the orientation thread should be aimed at the considerate posters, pointing to examples of good threads, highlighting what it is we don't tolerate, a sort of friendly top tips resource. It will also be a useful place for new posters to ask basic questions about how to post and whether something might be problematic, instead of in lots of different threads individually, which will hopefully become a handy reference and FAQ type thread with the important advice in the first few posts, at the top of the thread for lazy readers.

I for one fear AB's massive power. Also Magick Johnson's massive asshattery.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:59 / 14.10.07
Okay, so let's try and thrash out a list of what we do and don't want in the Temple. I'd like to keep the piece as positive and supportive as possible, so kicking off with the "yes more of this please!" part would be best.

-------------

Barbelith strives to be a place with a high standard of discussion and debate. The Temple forum is held to the same high standard as the rest of the board. This thread is here to help you get the most out of the forum. Before you start, we recommend reading the Wiki entries on Posting etiquette and the Temple. [include links.]

What we want:

Magic: The Temple is a place for "reality-based" magic. Material written from personal experience. We want to know what you've been up to--your pet projects, your strong suits, your greatest successes--and the things which could have gone better, too. All approaches and trads are welcome. Whether you're working within a tradition or making it up as you go along, we don't care--so long as you're using and testing what you make up in the latter case and mindfully exploring and examining your tradition in the former.

You might have noticed that certain terms, like "the astral plane" or "energy work," tend to be used here with a degree of mockery or a jocular tone. This does not mean that you're going to get flamed or attacked if you talk about these things or use this terminology. What often happens, though, is that these concepts are often thrown around in a very uncritical and unthinking way. Concepts which might be accepted unquestioningly elsewhere get challenged here.
We like to crack them open and have a good old rummage inside to see what makes them tick. If someone asks you "so what do you mean by 'energy' here?" they're not on the attack, they're trying to get a more meaningful understanding.

Spirituality: Discussion of all forms of spirituality are welcome in the Temple. This can include reasoned and respectful critique of religious systems. It's important that everyone feels safe and welcome regardless of their path, so that means mutual respect and no bashing of trads. (Please note that respect for others' spiritual beliefs does not mean that it's okay to express beliefs such as "unmarried mothers should burn in HELL!" See the section on "what we don't want" for further details.)

Questions: Asking questions is encouraged. Before you post, though, make sure you look around and see if your question has been answered elsewhere. We have the "Stupid Questions" thread which will do nicely for most queries [then list things like the Potions 101 and the Minerals threads where more specific q's can go.]


What we don't want:

Threads with little or no content. A thread asking "what are the magical properties of amethyst?" will get locked and the topic starter referred to the Questions thread or one of the 101 topics. If you start a thread beginning "hey look at this book/band/website," you need to kick off the discussion in a meaningful way. Why do you like this book? What grabbed you about this website? Why does it need a dedicated topic instead of being included in an existing one? If you don't do this, your thread is probably going to get locked. It's nothing personal, we just like our topics thick and meaty round here. [make a note that the search is borked and provide link to Google site:barbelith.com] If in doubt, use the Questions thread--if an interesting discussion develops it can be spun off into its own topic.

Bigotry: Racism, sexism, slurs on the grounds of nationality, gender, ability, religion or sexual orientation will get you into hot water pretty damn quick and may well lead to your being banned. We have a zero tolerance policy on anti-Semitism.

----------------------------------

K, that's my rough outline.

As an aside--since it's a recurrent problem not just on the B. but in modern magical discourse generally, it might also be useful/interesting to have a thread specifically about anti-Semitism in occultism. The history, how it survives in modern magic, the damage it has caused, what we can do to combat it, etc. I'd like a nice one-stop shop that we can send all the handwringers to when they start bleating about frea speach and why aren't we allowed to even TALK about this etc etc.
 
 
Papess
20:20 / 14.10.07
That is a great outline, Aunt Beast. The idea to create the thread on antisemitism is a good plan. Right now,I can't think of anything to add to this, I am just happy that you took this initiative and addressed these issues.

As for my outburst upthread: As much as I don't like foul language and hostile posts, Mr.Medeiros is on my last nerve. Why he would decide to hassle AB while she is trying to make this a better place is beyond me.

And to that person who decided to PM me to tell me that AB can defend herself, and that maybe I was hurtful to Mr.Medeiros, maybe you should think about that. No, let me spell this out a little clearer - You PMed me to defend Medeiros' right to be hurtful to AB. Right.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:54 / 14.10.07
Hehehe. No prizes for guessing who sent that one.

Yes, I can defend myself. However it's always good to hear a supportive voice or three when someone is having a go at one, even a not-very-well-thought-out and unsubstantiated go prompted by interpersonal issues rather than anything more juicy or substantial.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:40 / 14.10.07
Wait, so somebody PMed Medulla on AB's behalf to have a go at hir for having a go at somebody else on AB's behalf?

You couldn't make this shit up. It's comedy gold.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:47 / 14.10.07
Indeed. However it might profit us at this juncture to leave Mr. Medeiros and his venerable lady-friend to their backgammon, and to direct our attentions back to the de-doucheifying of the Temple.
 
 
Quantum
12:52 / 15.10.07
Let's add in that our preferred mode of expression in the Temple is suggestion rather than didactic or prescriptive imperatives.
So, 'I've found that it helps to do X, and I believe that Y is Z.' instead of 'Do X. Because Y is Z.' One opens up discussion and is predicated on us all having different experiences, the other presumes that there is one truth and that person has it.

I say that because it's easier to tease out assumptions people have made if they realise they are making them, for example 'All magic is subjective value judgements and hallucination' or 'we're all here learning sigils to fuck up the man' or 'Crowley is the only truth' or whatever. Maybe it seems a bit like adding 'I feel' before everything, but I don't think so, it's important to highlight the tone that gets you good responses ('What about this weird thing then?') and what gets you in trouble ('Look upon my gemetria ye mighty and despair')
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:02 / 15.10.07
what seems to me to be the massive power issues you have

I feel the need to add that I have never felt Aunt Beast to have power issues, massive or otherwise. Whatever problems I may have had with posts here, real or imaginary, that wasn't one of them.

I think the outline sounds great.

Personally, I tend not to write about my own personal experiences here, largely because there's a little voice in the back of my head going "who's going to care?" so I like the encouragement.

I'd also like to mention that one of my favorite Temple threads of all time was the Tarot collection where multiple posters pitched in to, if not create, then at least begin the creation of a great reference piece. It seems to be hard to keep something like that going (I don't think the Sephiroth threads got finished either), but I found both of them to be very instructional on subjects I had little knowledge of. The alternative would seem to be going out and picking up four or five books by different authors to get the wide range of opinions on something, which is expensive and more time-consuming, I think. And also I like not having to put up with some old goober's statements about all women this, all orientals that, it is obvious to everyone that (some statement that doesn't make any fucking sense), or the best of all, "it would not be seemly to do more than hint here about the awesome power I have, but here is a tantalizing glimpse for you lesser mortals who bought the book to wonder at".
 
 
EvskiG
14:29 / 15.10.07
Bigotry: Racism, sexism, slurs on the grounds of nationality, gender, ability, religion or sexual orientation will get you into hot water pretty damn quick and may well lead to your being banned. We have a zero tolerance policy on anti-Semitism.

I wonder -- is it really necessary to have a stricter policy on anti-Semitism than on nationality, gender, ability, religion, sexual orientation, etc.?

I was raised as a Jew and I don't think so. In fact, I think that it could hinder the free and open exchange of ideas.

(For example, people might be reluctant to challenge my read of the Gospel of John -- which points out what I see as the anti-Semitism of the text -- for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic themselves.)

What do people think?
 
 
HCE
14:29 / 15.10.07
Maybe it seems a bit like adding 'I feel' before everything, but I don't think so, it's important to highlight the tone that gets you good responses ('What about this weird thing then?') and what gets you in trouble ('Look upon my gemetria ye mighty and despair')

This seems like a pretty good point. If part of the ideaof the Temple is to share your experiences, it sounds like phrasing posting suggestions in terms of what has and hasn't worked well in the past is not only more inviting, but also coherent with the general aim of the place.
 
 
*
14:53 / 15.10.07
For antisemitism, Ev, I think it should read "references to an IJC and/or Holocaust denial" because that was the level of discourse we've banned people for. I think stuff at the level of "I think you're misinterpreting the Gospel of John as antisemitic because you're a big ol semite and accustomed to seeing yourself persecuted"—while an argument pretty obviously informed by the hypothetical interlocutor's antisemitic prejudice—probably wouldn't be met with precisely the same reaction. Replace that argument with one that's actually meaningful and informed by the text, and I think most people would see it as a positive contribution.
 
 
*
14:55 / 15.10.07
Meaning that I think more would be made of argument #2's consisting of a personal attack, informed by prejudice, and the poster would be asked to self-critique and apologize. It's the IJC/Holocaust deniers that the board has previously decided are not talk-to-able.
 
 
grant
15:52 / 15.10.07
I wonder - it seems like a lot of this stuff that's being mentioned already exists on the record in various places around the wiki and here in various Policy threads.

It's valuable to have it somewhere easily linked to and in a simple, easily digested form.

What I'm wondering is if there'd be a way to edit the actual forum description to include some of this, or if that's too small a set of words for too many ideas.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:54 / 15.10.07
I don't think it's possible to squeeze all that into a forum description, no.
 
 
Quantum
17:25 / 15.10.07
...but I assumed we'd be linking heavily to the wiki, using the thread as a synopsis and index system to get people there easily. People are like water, they'll mostly take the easiest route available to them, let's make it easy to discover what we're about.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:43 / 15.10.07
Yeah, that's basically the plan. Putting a thread right there in the Temple that collates the wiki link and other useful info whilst providing a space for people to ask more meta questions than the Q's thread.
 
 
grant
17:59 / 15.10.07
Should I unprotect the pertinent wiki pages?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:36 / 15.10.07
No, coz they'll just get spammed to death again. Let's wait until we have something specific to add.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:40 / 15.10.07
Just to make the point again, I'm fairly sure that Tom could make a thread sticky if he wanted, with little more than a couple of minutes' work. It's just a matter of putting a link to the thread directly underneath the moderator list in the forum, after all.
 
 
Quantum
20:01 / 15.10.07
That would be great, but let's not hold our breath- in the meantime let's make the thread and bump it when necessary.
 
 
c0nstant
21:23 / 15.10.07
ev: I was wondering about that as well, I think it probably comes down to the fact that for whatever reason anti-semitism is much more transparent than a lot of the other types of intolerance in the Temple.

"the jews are really our evil lizard overlords and caused 9/11"

compared to:

"male sexual fluids are more potent in love spells than females".

One is predicated on views that may well be sexist/mysoginistic and could probably do with some unpacking, the other is just hate-speech. But yeah, I don't necessarily think that anti-semitism should be placed in a seperate catagory regardless of precedent. I think it's more the level of intolerence shown that should determine banhammer smashing, so holocaust denial would be an obvious ban, but then use of certain words (the n-word for example) should be dealt with equally mercilessly and this should be reflected in the disclaimer.
 
 
Unconditional Love
07:02 / 16.10.07
Start a thread called new to the temple, get people to introduce themselves on that thread talk a little before they make there first post, pm them the rules of etiquette in the temple, point them at the wiki via pm.

Keep the introductions thread on the first page. Mention both the wiki and the rules in the introductions thread.

So ask them to describe their level of knowledge, what trad if any etc etc, may work.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:30 / 17.10.07
I feel the need to add that I have never felt Aunt Beast to have power issues, massive or otherwise.

Seconded.

I think the outline sounds great.

Seconded seconded.

I do, however, think that any thread that is going to discuss anti-semitism should be very carefully policed. I guess that kinda goes without saying though.
 
 
c0nstant
20:55 / 17.10.07
oops, forgot to say: well done Aunt Beast! A good general intorduction to The Temple. Thank you for the work you put in to it.
 
  

Page: 1 ... 2223242526(27)2829303132... 35

 
  
Add Your Reply