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Moderating the Temple

 
  

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grant
21:05 / 06.05.08
Why is this discussion going on in Policy?

Is it a Policy matter? Are these posts that should be moderated in Temple?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:40 / 07.05.08
I think this is an attemtp to cool down the "enlightenment" thread, which had deteriorated quite badly. I'm hoping this will be the last of it; it might be appropriate now for Policy mods to remove these comments, as they don't appear likely to do anyone any favours.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:07 / 07.05.08
Yeah, this is ridiculous. A moderator suggests that somebody look at their method of posting and how it's turning a discussion into an argument, and that request is then interpreted as "please continue this argument immediately in another thread, preferably one that has nothing at all to do with the argument itself".
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:11 / 07.05.08
I'll give Papess the opportunity to either edit or delete them herself before the day's out, then if that hasn't happened I'll put them up for deletion myself. Unless there are any objections.
 
 
Papess
18:02 / 07.05.08
Can someone just move the last two posts of mine to Barbe-Annoy?

This is my concerns regarding derogatory comments, and how to address them in the Temple:

Ev was certainly misleading if he had a problem, he was not clear as to how I should proceed in the matter. To just demand that I do not use the vehicles in reference to Buddhism is not respecting my own tradition. If there is a school that was not defined by the vehicles, and Ev wanted to bring that to my attention, that would have been fine! That didn't happen though. Instead he accused me of being derogatory towards the Theravada school, when I never made the connection between Theravada and Hinayana.

So in regards to policy, I think there should be some clarity here. Using the term hinayana shouldn't automatically be construed as referring to Theravada, as Ev has done. Also, that when referring to the vehicles no one should be accused of being derogatory unless making direct statement regarding another school - which, I never did.

This is in part why the discussion went sour. If Ev...or someone, had been forthcoming with the information, then there would have been less misunderstanding and thus, less frustration. I had to go and search the information myself in order to understand what the actual issue was with Ev complaint because he wasn't clear. Obviously, if I do not understand a school because I do not practice it, the considerate thing to do would be to explain it properly rather than just making accusations. None of this requires Ev (or anyone) to suggest the mention of Hinayana is automatically derogatory when there is no reference.

I never understood hinayana as being in reference to Theravada in the first place. I know next to nothing about the school, but I do have the common sense to understand that calling something inferior is not okay. Which is why I only ever was taught, understood and used Hinayana as a conceptual reference. Associating it to Theravada was not something I did, or would condone doing. Ev made this connection.

Without taking away from Theravada schools, Mahayana schools or Vajrayana schools, or implying in any manner that one school has purer teachings...can there be some consensus about how to approach this so that there can be respectful discussion about these things?
 
 
Papess
18:13 / 07.05.08
Without taking away from Theravada schools, Mahayana schools or Vajrayana schools...

Just to be clear, the reason I didn't use hinayana here is because I am referring to schools. As far as I know, there are no hinayana schools.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:03 / 07.05.08
Nobody here has the ability to move posts between fora - you'll have to copy and paste them yrself.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
21:38 / 07.05.08
So ...the atmosphere emanating from the Temple, which is at times utterly vile in its levels of aggression...

Help us to help ourselves with some links, quotes, etc., backing up this position.


I think that this thread is actually quite a good example of an aggressive atmosphere at the moment. When people don't simply logically resolve things in their heads but believe them the emotion that they experience is very strong. The Temple consequently is emotional but to people who don't believe the atmosphere is aggressive and opaque. The argument above is particularly good at being an example, not only is it aggressive and emanating from the Temple but I also have no idea what it's about.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
04:05 / 08.05.08
I'm actually quite unhappy about this myself. We had a good, productive thread going there with loads of interesting input. I was gutted to see it deteriorate into hostility and aggression when it really didn't need to, largely because of the inability of one individual to take disagreement as anything other than a personal attack.

However I'm not sure that this is specifically a Temple problem--I'm sure I could point to similar arguments in other fora and say "...and I have no idea what it's about!"--or how one particular poster's conduct is representative of an entire forum.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
04:09 / 08.05.08
...I think at this point I'd really like to see this thread locked and sunk. It was relevant when there appeared to be some possibility of the board surviving, but now I don't think there's anything to be gained from it. All it does now is drag scratchiness into yet another forum (and create an opportunity for people with an axe to grind or an appetite for drama to have a pop at the freaks).
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:47 / 08.05.08
The Temple consequently is emotional but to people who don't believe the atmosphere is aggressive and opaque. The argument above is particularly good at being an example, not only is it aggressive and emanating from the Temple but I also have no idea what it's about. (italics mine)

It's a heated argument about diverging traditions of Buddhism. Where does "belief" come into it? All you have to believe in to follow the thread is that a thing called Buddhism exists, that it has various diverging branches, and two contributors disagree about what they entail. If you have no idea what it is about, you could look up the Therevada, Mahayana and Vajrayana schools of Buddhism on Wikipedia and bring yourself up-to-speed quite quickly. I don't see why your personal lack of interest in the subject under discussion should be taken as evidence that the atmosphere of the temple forum is "aggressive and opaque".
 
 
Papess
12:03 / 08.05.08
..largely because of the inability of one individual to take disagreement as anything other than a personal attack.

That is just not true, Mordant.
 
 
Papess
12:08 / 08.05.08
..and two contributors disagree about what they entail.

We don't actually disagree. Truth is, I am not certain what Ev's issue is. If I just mention Hinayana he gets all upset and tells me I am being derogatory to Theravada, when he is the only one making that association. So, I think he just imagines we disagree and then he takes a topic off course to prove it. I am only responding to that.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:47 / 08.05.08
It's well established that Hinayana is, for all intents and purposes, a derogatory term developed by Mahayana followers to try and stick it to Theravada followers. The sooner you get that, Papess, the sooner we can get on with fruitful discussion of Buddhist practices of enlightenment.
 
 
EvskiG
15:22 / 08.05.08
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"
in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"
in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.

Hatred never ceases through hatred in this world; through love alone does it cease. This is an eternal law.

- The Twin Verses, Dhammapada

Perhaps it's best to end this discussion here and simply move on.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:23 / 08.05.08
Papess/May: I may be misjudging, but what I'm percieving here is part of a pattern of behaviour I've seen you engage in before. In the past, I've seen you respond in a hostile manner to neutral or even positive input from other posters, especially if they are disagreeing with some idea you've expressed. I've experienced this directly at times and witnessed you engaging in it with others.

I know this isn't something you're doing deliberately, but it does seem to happen with some regularity and for the person on the other end it can be very painful and confusing.

I'm not saying this to attack you or hurt you. I'd like it if you could maybe try and recognise the pattern and think about ways in which you might try to break out of it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:23 / 08.05.08
Wikipedia (font of all knowledge that it is...) seems to say that Hinayana is generally perceived as a pejorative and derogatory term used by Mahayana followers to diss Theravada followers. So regardless of the nuances of this debate, which I'm sure exist, if its pejorative status is well established enough to appear on wikipedia it suggests that Ev isn't totally groundless in his claims that its usage in this thread is pejorative.

I don't think there's too much to be gained by arguing this out any further though...
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:49 / 08.05.08
Can Temple mods delete the Colours of Chaos thread? It's a duplicate of the one in Gathering, which is where it belongs in the first place. And saying that, I just realised I have made the same mistake.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:54 / 08.05.08
I don't think there's too much to be gained by arguing this out any further though...

Yeah, or by continuing this thread.

Mod policy for any specific forum is pretty much a dead issue, since in the absence of proper functionality the best we can hope for anywhere is limited damage control. Specific instances of poor conduct can be addressed like poor conduct anywhere else on the board and there are general threads for this.

That just leaves the ever-erupting not-quite-a-discussion that we keep semi-having about the Temple's supposed negative effect on the rest of the board. If true believers in the toxic Temple effect should ever decide to put their money where their mouths are, they could of course start a "scupper the Temple" thread in which to properly instantiate their position. Since this topic keeps coming up, and since those who raise it could not possibly be engaging in recreational contrarianism--there must be a fuckload of juicy evidence that could swiftly be collated with a minimum of effort.

Personally, I'm going outside. The jasmine is blooming.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:01 / 08.05.08
Well okay, I'll bite. What was the point of

Trip-heads are generally wazzocks. You'd think enlightenment would make you less wazzocky, not more

in a forum that's, at least notionally, not averse to discussing the meaning, or otherwise, of the power plant (in it's distilled form or otherwise) experience.

All right, one might think the whole thing's ridiculous, but equally, one might question the wisdom of summoning up one's ancestors in a ritual form. What would they tell you, apart from that you should have gone to med school?

Sorry to be facetious. For what little it's worth, I neither believe nor disbelieve in the occult; what I don't think is that anyone who's brave enough to experiment with this kind of material is wasting their time. It's just that I have trouble with the way some of the ideas are expressed, on occasion.

From what I understand of them, spiritual practices are more of an art than a craft, so there's no right or wrong way to go about them. To suggest otherwise, to be moving towards the argument that how one's practices benefit society is in some indicative of their general worth seems a bit like saying it's better to be a doctor than a painter. And perhaps it is. But who knows?

What I object to is people taking a pasting for expressing fairly modest opinions, on the basis that Poster X has 'been doing it longer'. What if Poster X has been doing it wrong? What's happened to the element of doubt that, surely, must be in there if one's planning on impacting on society in general?
 
 
Papess
19:54 / 08.05.08
Papess/May: I may be misjudging, but what I'm percieving here is part of a pattern of behaviour I've seen you engage in before. In the past, I've seen you respond in a hostile manner to neutral or even positive input from other posters, especially if they are disagreeing with some idea you've expressed. I've experienced this directly at times and witnessed you engaging in it with others.

I see patterns in your behaviour too. I am not being hostile. I have been frustrated, but I have explained why. Now, no one seems to be addressing that.

Ev, could you please address my questions and concerns regarding your own behaviour and regarding the use of vehicles in Buddhism.

(I swear, if I just quoted the Dhammapada in response to someone's concerns with me, I would have been told I was being self-righteous...amongst other things.)

Really Ev, what exactly are suggesting by such a passage?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:57 / 08.05.08
@Alex:

One throwaway quote from one poster plus a bunch of vague comments--I can't even really describe them as accusations--poorly articulated and easily dismissed with a cursory glance over anything I've written about magic, spirituality, drugs/entheogens? That's you biting, is it?

Bite harder. <a href="whereyourmouthis.com">Money Goes Here</a>.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:05 / 08.05.08
@ Papess: I'm serious. I think you've been reacting in a very hostile, confrontational way to little or no real provocation. I know you're not aware of it. I know you feel embattled and set on from all sides. I really wish there was a way to help you with that because I honestly hate to see you in a place where you're all alone and surrounded by agressors, but when you dig yourself into these positions you make it impossible for people to support you without supporting your position, whether they agree with it or not. And it's horrible to watch because when you're on form you contribute a lot, but when you act like this you undermine yourself.

I think the exhortation to let this go is not unwise. Sometimes, right or wrong, you've got to step away from the keyboard.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:26 / 08.05.08
Before somebody forces your hand by locking this thread, as has been suggested elsewhere.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:27 / 08.05.08
Temple spat fap?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:37 / 08.05.08
I've admitted that I have a problem, and put my faith in a higher power.

(Sudafed.)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:21 / 08.05.08
That's you biting, is it?

Well not really, no. It's not a war, is it? Must we all indulge so? People are reading this, y'know?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:30 / 08.05.08
*phones sponsor*
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:42 / 09.05.08
*Sponsors*, please. I'm running a marathon.

I'm running a marathon.
 
 
Katherine
07:25 / 29.07.08
Gentian's Occult eBooks link in the PDF thread is a bit of a problem as it breaches copyright for quite a few books, some of them new and others a bit older but they are still within the copyright of the authors/companies.

Could the mods please have a look.
 
  

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