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Moderating the Temple

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:36 / 17.04.04
I've always favoured a hands-off approach to moderating this particular forum. There are a lot of different voices and veiwpoints on Barbelith, and this is never more apparent than in the Temple. Sometimes I've found my finger hovering dangerously close to the "Move topic to FUCKING MARS!!!" button, only to find that the thread in question blossoms and matures into something awesome.

(Or at least something pretty hilarious. Or just sinks without trace, making moderation irrelevant.)

However, since we've become Googleable, I've noticed that there are rather more spam threads and threads of the one-post-love-spell-request variety.

I don't mind this much and I'm inclined to continue with the softly-softly approach, but I was wondering how regular Temple posters feel. Should spam threads be gently mocked, re-railed into a more general discussion, or left alone to sink into obscurity?

What about extreme newbie questions? I'm talking here about "How do I get so-and-so to like me/make the school bully's trews fall down in assembly" type stuff.

Do we need more or shoutier moderation in the Temple? Do we have plenty much moderation already, thanks?

Thoughts?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:44 / 17.04.04
Is there a case for making sure there are stock answers for various fora (not just the Temple) in the wiki so that for newbie questions you can just go 'see this page in the wiki' then lock the thread? I think where something is Spam it should be deleted, whether there are 'interesting responses' or not.
 
 
grant
01:58 / 18.04.04
I'd forward all love spell requests to the Gek thread, then lock 'em.

Spam is deleted -- although eager introductions which happen to include a homepage or something seem OK.
 
 
SMS
03:53 / 18.04.04
I support Our Lady's suggestion.
 
 
Tom Coates
18:56 / 18.04.04
In my opinion, spam should not just be ridiculed, it should definitely be deleted straight away. I've got a scheme up my sleeves designed to stop this kind of activity, but we'll have to see how long that takes me to put in place (likely timescale: a very long time).

With regard to moderation - there are different kinds of moderation activity. Firstly there's maintenance stuff: In my experience almost no one gives a crap about editing the topic summaries if you do it properly - people feel little or no personal attachment to that, and I think you can really do some good on the board by improving those and putting some more detail into them. Similarly, thread titles with typos in them can be changed (and probably should be because it makes it easier for people to find them in the search facility or via google).

Then there's the moderator as local guide. I don't think there's any shame in trying to nudge conversation in the right direction or pushing people to try a little harder in what they're writing - trying to encourage them to put some effort into the first posts in threads, explaining that they'll get better responses if they can pull out some decent questions worth debating or summarise the position of another thinker rather than just sticking in a link and saying "what do you think". That, I think, is also completely legitimate.

Then there's the direct intervention stuff - delete posts / delete threads kind of moderation. In my opinion there are a number of occasions in which you should feel prepared to use these things, remembering of course that you have other moderators precisely to reign you in if you go too far. Duplicate threads on topics that have been discussed before should generally be locked and people directed to the old one. Spammy comments should be deleted - spammy threads too. You have to decide whether you need to delete people who are radically off-topic, remembering that it is your job to do the boring, slightly intrusive work that keeps the board feeling useful for other people.

And finally there's the in-post moderation stuff, which can really divide people - if there's an overly large image, making that an appropriate size is totally required moderational stuff. If there's an unlinked link or a broken image, then you should go in and fix it and feel no compunction about it. If someone's written a realllllllllllly long word that breaks the site, then you shouldn't feel bad about sticking a couple of spaces into it. And - on occasion - you'll see bits of the old board's functioning sticking its ugly face through in threads (really nasty quoting formatting for example) and you might want to neaten that up. I don't think anyone would complain about that.

On the other hand there's typo-fixing, formatting adjustments and the like and basically there are differences of opinion about that stuff. Certainly you should never ever ever change anything which alters the meaning of another user's post. Many moderators feel that altering anything about another user's post is totally innappropriate. Others feel that getting rid of enormous spoiler spaces or random extra line breaks is ok. I think you can go pretty much up to and including fixing random bits of Word-created punctuation and odd double-line spaced formatting if they really piss you off and on occasion I've corrected someone's spelling, but there's a sizeable and completely plausible contingent who think that's never appropriate. But basically, act according to your conscience and other people will act according to theirs and the board should manifest out of that.
 
 
illmatic
08:17 / 21.04.04
Mordant: Just to add, I feel your pain. Starting the "newbie questions" thread over there was a step in tthe right direction if only people can be encourage to use it. In the long term - no idea how close Tom is to this - some kind of rating system for new posters might be a good thing, even though it's going to be change in the culture of the board.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:52 / 21.04.04
I think the Temple really benefits from a light touch, simply because there are a lot of paths, and a lot of levels of understanding and experience. And I have a limited tolerance for newbie-bashing.

However, I'm wary of the Temple ending up like so many other magic fora on the net: a bunch of one-post topics started by people called .:xXstarchyldeXx:. ("hi i want a luv spel to make the cute guyz in scool like me also a curse so my stepmom dies. PS its ok i am a wite whitch who is a elf n also a cat xx") or 666SATANISLORD666 ("HI I WANT TO NO IF SATAN WILL APPEAR IF I FEED KITTENS TO MY SNAKE IF SO WHAT COLOR KITTENS AND WHERE DO I GET A SNAKE ps HAIL SATAN"). Just sayin'.
 
 
cusm
15:04 / 21.04.04
As the number of threads grow, I worry some that we loose the ability to find the useful old ground topics that make a lot of the one liner stuff necessary at all. I've been meaning to pour through and index some of the hotter threads in the wiki as a sort of "best of" to help with this sort of thing, but really haven't had the time to do as much of it as I'd like. Though I have made a start with it with the Projects and Hot Topics sections started. I lovingly invite anyone with the modivation to do more with that to please do so, as I believe this sort of indexing helps avoid a lot of the clutter in the long run and helps preserve the good from being lost in the eventual flood of noise.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:17 / 21.04.04
Mordant, you've raised a point i wanted to address myself. What I liked about the magick forum when I joined Barbelith was the strong emphasis on discussion and evolving conversations around an issue, which I found personally very helpful because it helped me think about the topics under discussion and come to new conclusions out of the process of making a response. The problem I have with the recent spate of one-shot Q&A's is that it's boring - in that it potentially has the effect of making a division between posters, so that the more experienced contributors become merely information-givers, not peers discussing a subject in depth. Many of the "questions" we're seeing could be answered by the person concerned doing a bit of googling. Granted, the questioners want to hear a variety of inputs on a topic rather than just reading definitions on a static website, and I take yr point about the necessity to tolerate different levels of experience, but I think Tom's suggestion above of moderators acting as local guides could perhaps be more strongly applied in the Temple.
 
 
cusm
18:29 / 21.04.04
Perhaps we should just start a Q&A thread, and move all the individual questions into it? That'd clean things up considerably. We've had threads like that before, in fact.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:56 / 21.04.04
Yeah, I started a Q&A thread the other day, the '"Stupid" Magick questions' thread. I figured that we had one in the Lab and one in the Head Shop, so why not one in the Temple? But it's not getting much traffic yet.
 
 
Tom Coates
06:42 / 22.04.04
I think this is a problem that we've all been experiencing recently with people around the whole site who come onto the board expecting it to be one of those other forums where it's almost encouraged that you should write short introductory comments and hope that the conversation emerges from that. I'm trying to encourage some of these new people to be slightly more thoughtful in their initial comments and I'm working on new ways of introducing people to the site so that they don't get the idea that initial comments like that are appropriate.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
23:52 / 22.04.04
I wonder if it would be a good idea to add 'sticky thread' capability so we can have the equivalent of the '"Stupid" XXXXX Questions' at the top of every forum that needs one.
 
 
cusm
16:10 / 23.04.04
Its been my longly held opinion that we could get huge benefits from sticky threads for this sort of thing, should it become technically possible to implement. In the mean time, we have the wiki for that.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:48 / 23.04.04
I'm chucking in another vote for sticky topics.
 
 
charrellz
18:00 / 23.04.04
Not the most insightful post, but I'm quite happy with temple moderating as it is. Good job!
Ummm.... ya, that's about it.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:44 / 23.04.04
on the 'sticky' thing: think this could be very useful in a variety of places... most fora have topics/ideas which come up over and over in the same form...

edited as i just realised this has been suggested already. er, i agree, then.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:55 / 23.04.04
My experience from other boards is that sticky threads help, but for the real fuckwits they make no difference.

Okay, I'm talking about U75, where we have the FAQ linked at the top of each forum. It makes no difference. It clearly states "we are not interested in hearing about your latest whacky scheme and/or home page, this is a discussion forum", yet people keep posting their latest whacky scheme and/or home page because they have no interest in the board apart from doing that. It's spam, basically. You can often google on some of the terms and you will get similar posts on other boards.

To sum up, it's not a bad idea but it won't solve problems completely. It only works for people who are actually interested in the community. There needs to be some other way of getting rid of people who only want to let the world know about their great new interpretation of the numerology behind Halo 2.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:03 / 24.04.04
Invoke something with big teeth?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:57 / 24.04.04
Yes, my experience has been broadly in line with that of Fridge, have a sticky thread with the most understandable topic title ever and you'll still have muppets posting the same questions underneath.

I must admit that I'm not keen on the return of the 'three most recently replied to topics' idea but if we do bring that back, might sticky topics balls that up a bit?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
05:12 / 25.04.04
Does the capability to append someone else's post to a thread exist? So that an unnecessarily new topic could be attached to the sticky FAQ-thread that the less oblivious folks would have noticed and posted to?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:51 / 25.04.04
Yeah, but only if you're Tom. Which most of us aren't.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:26 / 26.04.04
Is it acceptable action to cut and paste someone's thread to a 'Stupid X Questions' thread, while deleting the original thread? (assuming that they'll be PMed to explain what happened...)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:38 / 26.04.04
I would have thought that was perfectly acceptible to everyone.
 
 
Quantum
23:23 / 12.07.06
there is a history of people coming for the magick, and then moving to other parts of the board and ... well, being a bit specialist. If you see what I mean. Haus elsewhere

I was going to start a new thread entitled 'The Catflap Effect' but it seemed better to bump this. I emphasise this has nothing to do with any poster specifically (including Haus) or that thread as such, it simply inspired this post.

While I would love to respond to that quote 'Fuck off', there is a grain of truth in it. I don't agree with it but I can see how someone who didn't have a knowledge of the occult or the magic scene might perceive the Temple as a place with special rules that allowed special cases into Barbelith who then run amok sowing destruction and kaos in their wake.
It ain't so.
But, the grain of truth is that some posters are attracted to the Temple who might not have the intellectual rigour to post in other fora (e.g. Lab) without appearing wacky or needing their bullshit meters servicing. So be it. I don't have aproblem with legitimate criticism of poor posting anywhere on the board.

I do have a problem however with the characterisation of the Temple as a playground or a space where intellectual rigour is undervalued. That's lazy, stereotyping thinking. I could provide examples (although I hope it's unnecessary) of troublesome posters who've come through other fora, then compare them to the excellent posters who've come through the Temple (many recently I think most will agree). Like the rest of Barbelith, the Temple is a cut above most of the net, but unlike the rest the subject matter is such that it is going to attract the more eccentric poster. Still we manage to keep it high quality, relevant and readable.

Shit it, I'm trying to be reasonable while a bit angry, what I'm saying is that the Temple has a heavier handicap than most fora and yet still manages to maintain a quality and quantity of debate better than I've found anywhere on the net, largely due to the indefatigable efforts of prolific posters and moderators making it so. I reckon it's the most moderated forum here, constantly striving for excellence and often succeeding, and I don't like to see it blamed for introducing 'specialist' posters who mess up the board. There's plenty of folk who came for the Headshop or the Comics forum and were a bit 'specialist' for the rest of the board too but other fora don't get stigmatised in the same way as the Temple does.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:27 / 12.07.06
Much to say (mainly apologies for a knee-jerk reaction), but no brane to do it. If it helps, I'll stigmatise other fora in a _heartbeat_...
 
 
Ticker
23:54 / 12.07.06
I maybe biased beyond all hope of reason*, but the Temple fosters some of the most challenging dialogues I've encountered in my newbie-hood on Barbelith.

I've searched the older threads, and yeah, there are a lot of wince inducing filler in there. Yet for the most part the exchanges are smokingly beautiful articulate examinations by candid folks well versed in their areas o'interest.

The Temple routinely demonstrates what I adore about the culture of Barbelith:
Respect for the experience paired with a productive critique of the interpretation.


*Meow.
 
 
Quantum
01:06 / 13.07.06
It bears repeating I emphasise this has nothing to do with any poster specifically (including Haus) it was the proverbial straw that broke my back. The tendency to stigmatise those who have unconventional spiritual beliefs as though they are all dysfunctional otherkin is widespread, and In My Humble Opinion based on real life experience of lots of occultists being precisely like that.
But the Barbelith Temple is where you'll find the harshest criticism of those poorly considered views and probably the least tolerance for self indulgent nonsense anywhere I can think of. When it's not the middle of the night I'll try and provide a slew of examples of threads and posts that display the Temple's tendency to smack down delusional or unsupported opinion, but for now let me use the catflap analogy- any foolish critters coming in the Temple door thinking it's an easy in get shocked and awed by the deadly textual claws of Gypsy Lantern and shown very little mercy.
(Sorry to take your name in vain GL but it's the most obvious example that comes to mind)
 
 
*
01:22 / 13.07.06
And maybe that is why they end up posting elsewhere, in Lab for instance, threads which are in terms of subject matter better off in Temple except that they would get torn to shreds there because they are poorly considered and unsupported by a) reason b) history c) external evidence or d) critically examined, disciplined personal gnosis. And then a few people are likely to respond with "That shit doesn't fly here, back to Temple with you!" It doesn't fly in Temple, either, and that's why people take it into Lab. (Which, forgive me, is in a dreadful mess. My scientist friends won't join the boards, many of them, because it's a waste of their time to try to discuss topics of interest to them in an environment where people are likely to accuse them of being prejudiced against those without formal science backgrounds if they try to explain that no in fact Jupiter is not a star, for example.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:30 / 13.07.06
Yeah, I'm a bit sick of the way that pseudoscientific bilge that would get you laughed out of the Temple these days seems assured of a cosy "well, it might work!" response in the Lab. The Lab is a fright but right now I for one only have the energy to tear new arseholes on a regular basis in one forum at a time, which is what really needs to happen frankly. A few people need to get down to the Laboratory with their Just Fucking Google It boots on and start demanding the same standard of engagement.

I think the fact that the Temple is so much more rigourous these days is almost working against it. It seems to me that the huge hideous rows that have broken out there in the past have coloured people's perceptions such that any disagreement gets seen as FITE, when in fact there's some real quality debate going on. I know the sporadic ipssisisiimus freakouts don't help, but these tend to be vocal rather then representative.
 
 
Quantum
11:19 / 13.07.06
I'm trying! Lab mods to arms!
 
 
*
14:41 / 13.07.06
I can't much help, actually, Quantum— I thiiiiiink I know good science when I see it... sometimes... but that's about all. (Er, sorry for further digressing into Labmod territory.)
 
 
grant
15:13 / 13.07.06
Yeah, I just spent 15 minutes reading about Quantum gravity and gravitational singularities, and can now say that there are people in the world who can evaluate the potential existence of undiscovered forces, but right now I'm not one of them.

This is part of what I've talked about before as an inherent problem with the Lab -- Temple is about things you can do/experience yourself.
 
 
Quantum
10:06 / 14.07.06
Question to other Temple mods (and anyone else too) how polite do we have to be?

The Alchemy spam by elkhart (example) provoked me into a furious response or three, which I then didn't post as it seemed pointless- hopefully they'll just go away. I don't want to present the Temple as hostile, just rigorous, but so many times now I've refrained from posting (or written then deleted posts) that I'm losing sight of what's acceptable and what's not.
It's not about the salt, which has already been modded and politely commented on (ta MC, looks like a post was deleted too- I shudder to think what it was like) but about the regular flare-up of posts obsessing over one thing badly by one misguided person. It pollutes the holy well of sense that we attempt to keep clear, like a drunken hippo in your zen gravel garden.
Am I right to restrain myself? Should I wait three nonsense posts and *then* let rip? Should I leave it to other people to respond rather than risk a poor comment getting three or four caustic responses in a row?
I'm thinking about instigating the three strike rule personally, once can be error, two coincidence, three is a definite tendency to talk utter shite.
 
 
illmatic
11:17 / 14.07.06
I think you're right to restrain yourself, TBH. I had the same urge but didn't do it when I saw moderation requests had come in. I'm glad I didn't post something rude, because a) as you say, Temple should be rigourous but not hostile and more importantly b) I was letting my irritaion with other threads spill over into this one. I'd just been reading the "Burning Down the Haus" thread and wanted to shout at people basically. Time for a cool out.
 
  

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