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Moderating the Temple

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:27 / 22.03.07
Maybe. I just have a hard time believing that every single one of these people is somehow unreachable. Sure, some guys are just too wanky to get through to (like freaking Holocaust deniers trying to pass their shit off as tricksy pookah-ish little mindpranks), but some really aren't. I think I'm failing as a communicator.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:13 / 22.03.07
(PS: I'm quite serious here--this is not an attempt to fish for back-slappies and handholding from my virtual chums--critical input is very welcome.)
 
 
jentacular dreams
12:43 / 22.03.07
I'm not sure you are though. Every post I've read of yours seems fairly clear. Are there many in the last temple spat that you wish you'd re-worded?

And is everyone unreachable? Look at how the argument with Wolfangel/Sam Hain/Spine turned out in coincidence driver. Perfectly reasonable people can do or say increadibly undreasonable things. And otherwise perfectly intelligent people can have a couple of really stupid ideas. However, no-one likes being told they've said (or worse, thought) something idiotic, so these kind of things are likely to be pretty heated unless the 'wrong' party realises it and is humble enough to accept it.

Of all the fora in the revolution, the temple is the most subjective, meaning that on the whole, when an argument does occur, unless one person has made a rather basic mistake neither side has much in the way of references (or even neccessarily logical reasoning) to back up their case.

Finally, remember that despite the loss of older members, the lith is still expanding. As the active member base gets larger (and as older people leave) the level of history posters have with one another drops. It's far harder to misinterpret a sarcastic statement from say, haus, simply because his prolific posting has established an online personality for him, known to most. Not only will newer people not neccessarily know this, but their lack of history with other posters reduces their empathy for them. I suspect that as the 'lith grows the names of posters have less personality attached to them from the perspective of the average reader. We know each other less so, to an extent, we can't help but care about each other less.

The increasing snarkiness is I suspect partly a result of this, but I'd suggest it also positively reinforces it, perpetating itself.

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a stream of consciousness/analysis. My communication may well be poorer than you feel yours to be. The take-home message is it's situational/cultural. But the barbelith culture is ultimately only a product of the posting style barbeloids choose to use. If other people post something ultrawankery, that's their responsibility. If you respond to the midwankery as if it were ultrawankery that suggests that you need a chance to de-frazzle. What if you took a few days off from barbelith, then re-read two recent threads, one which you enjoyed, one which you hated (e.g the nettie one)? After re-reading you should know whether you were being too harsh or not.

Also I agree with quantum. A step back is far better than walking away.
 
 
jentacular dreams
12:45 / 22.03.07
Sorry, cross post. Can you point to any posts in which you feel you failed to communicate?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:47 / 22.03.07
I see what you're saying, making for the beeline, but I also don't.

Would you care to elaborate?
 
 
Quantum
14:52 / 22.03.07
I think I'm failing as a communicator.

Er, can you point to anyone who is succeeding as a communicator to contrast with? It's just I honestly can't see what you could do much better without pandering to bad behaviour, the difficulty in communication appears to me to come from the other side. I know the message received is the message you sent etc. but honestly, you can't try and improve your communication skills beyond clear, that won't make people better readers or clearer thinkers.

If there's any crit I'd have at all it is very minor, I sometimes wonder if you assume people in the Temple will act like people on other sites (fnordery, volkism, whatever) when they tend not to as much. I'd assume it's hangover from just having to deal with that stuff minutes before elsewhere, as you say, but perhaps you need a Temple hat with rose tinted glasses attached to put on. I have to say though, you seem more aware of potential communication issues or problems with your approach than anyone else so I'm not sure what my tuppence is really worth. I'm in denial about my communication issues myself, so your competition for clarity and self awareness isn't too tough from me.
 
 
Quantum
14:58 / 22.03.07
Hah, that was a rubbish post by me. More clearly- MC, you are setting your benchmark too high, expecting superhuman performance from yourself IMHO.
 
 
jentacular dreams
15:44 / 22.03.07
AG, I'm not totally sure myself anymore, but I think it was something along the lines of

a) some people are idiots
b) most people sometimes act like idiots
c) people are a lot less likely to act like idiots if they feel an emotional attachment to the place/other posters.
d) if someone is a stranger online (i.e. has little interaction history) it is easier to assume that they are (a) rather than (b).
e) this leads to fisticuffs and scuffles

I like mordant's posts, they're usually (to me) well considered, balanced and clear. But the only person who can really say if we're interpreting what she intends in mordant herself. Which is why I suggested a breather and a re-read. If she does feel people misunderstand her communication (or that she overreacts at times due to RL/internet stresses), when does this seem to occur, and why?
 
 
Ticker
18:26 / 22.03.07
Well...

I'd like to frame this as to moderation style around Temple topics not specific mod reactions...with me?

I find it is really important during an interaction to first state as neutrally as possible what the percieved issue is. 'I am feeling uncomfortable' 'This appears to me as' these kinds of positioning anchor the statement with the expert, you know how you feel about what someone posted. Avoid making statements with judgements regarding where the other person is coming from.

Imagine someone lobs an object into the middle of a circle of people. We're all standing around looking at it. It's very different to say 'It looks to me like you just tossed a dead puppy at me feet, did you?' then 'You evil dead puppy tosser!'.

Benefit of the doubt is crucial with this medium and asking for clarity *before* judgment is a life saver.

Ok so the person says, 'Why yes I tossed a dead puppy at your feet and here is why'. One response maybe ' Thanks for sharing, but that's not appropriate to this space and here is why'. Another maybe 'Wow, I never looked at it that way. You're a thoughtful and unique puppy tosser'.

My round about point is until the issue of communication error is ruled out everyone needs to be given the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to participate in the furthering of useful information. While it is entertaining as hell to watch skillful bare knuckle slap downs, it isn't a really great way to run a communtiy watering hole.

1. This is how I am perceiving what you posted. Is this what you intended?

2. If not, let's recalibrate.

3. If it is, let's figure out why you are posting something I find inflammatory/offensive/incorrect and/or nonuseful/unproductive. (the 'I' is important unless it is clearly a known group standard like homophobia)

The insults that get tossed around in these grappling matches either about the people posting or their styles of posting usually increase the discomfort rather than clear up the communication problem.

Sure sometimes it is clearly warranted to call an asshat an asshat but that should almost never be done lightly. YMMV 'course.
 
 
Quantum
19:14 / 22.03.07
One response maybe ' Thanks for sharing, but that's not appropriate to this space and here is why'. Another maybe 'Wow, I never looked at it that way. You're a thoughtful and unique puppy tosser'.

Or secret option c) 'I never looked at it that way. You're a tosser' if they are, in fact, a tosser.
 
 
Ticker
13:10 / 23.03.07
You liked that I snuck that in under the radar, didntcha?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:00 / 23.03.07
Quants: I sometimes wonder if you assume people in the Temple will act like people on other sites (fnordery, volkism, whatever) when they tend not to as much. I'd assume it's hangover from just having to deal with that stuff minutes before elsewhere, as you say, but perhaps you need a Temple hat with rose tinted glasses attached to put on.

There is some truth to this, yeah. Barbelith is mercifully devoid of Folkist asshats, and has attracted far fewer dewy-eyed fluff-pagans that you'd expect. We do get a fair whack of 23!11!ing, but perhaps not as much as you might expect. I don't know that I'm importing hostility exactly but perhaps I've aquired a certain tendency to assume the worst and react accordingly.

XK, you speak strong truth as usual.

WRT pointing out exactly where I'm going wrong... it's a bit nebulous really, I just feel like I'm seeing things in this binary state of EITHER condone lousy practice/weak ideas/etc (thus potentially colluding in the fossilisation of the mage & implied denigration of the ppl who actually do the damn work) OR challenge practice/ideas/assumptions (which all too frequently seems to escalate into the tearing of new orifices). I'm not sure how to handle things differently though.
 
 
Olulabelle
15:15 / 25.03.07
Serious question: What is a folkist?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:28 / 25.03.07
It's an anglicised form of Volkist, I believe - a particular set of beliefs held by some who practise usually Northern European pantheon-based paganism. In essence, it argues that people have a special connection to and therefore should practise their region and ethnicity's own form of pagan worship. What this comes down to is usually that people of Germanic origin should be the only people who worship the Germanic or Nordic gods, which happens to exclude black and Asian people.
 
 
Quantum
16:35 / 25.03.07
'We're not racist, black people should worship their own gods'. Not to paint them all with the same brush mind, but some are certainly inclined toward dodgy views.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:41 / 25.03.07
Basically what they said, yeah.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:58 / 25.03.07
Except for the not painting them all with the same brush part. I can't see how you could realistically argue that that folkism isn't racist.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:03 / 25.03.07
Ahhh. OK. I've heard about those people. The reason lots of Norse people won't read the magazines published about the Northern tradition. Thank you. Sorry for being thick.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:01 / 25.03.07
You're not thick, it's just that the whole concept is too far into the centre of the "really stupid offensive shit" part of the Venn diagram to occur to any reasonable person.
 
 
Quantum
17:28 / 26.03.07
here's the Venn;

...............................................and waaaaaaay over here are the folk


MC- surely they can't *all* be Blonds for the Blond God types?
 
 
Quantum
17:34 / 26.03.07
Oh, and I came here to say I briefly considered putting something in the ultraculture thread about advertising akin to what MC put in the comics thread selling the signed invisibles comic, but I figured in the Temple it was relevent and likely to cause discussion, where in comics it's just pimping.
 
 
Ticker
17:40 / 26.03.07
I was poking about in the Convo meta thread on the Temple and THRB's mention of Mercy/Severity registered with with me particularly in reaction to this discussion. I think he nailed what fosters a good balanced way to explore these things, the middle path.

Non martyrdom derived Mercy isn't a fluff filled warm blankie of compassion and a cup of tea (ok sometimes it is). Balanced Severity isn't cruel and sadistic even if it feels that way sometimes. We need to drive from a balanced view of both.

I think it is perfectly appropriate to be severe with a poster in the Temple but I don't agree with ridiculing, belittling, or insulting them in the process. While we should be severe with shoddy thinking and shitty attitudes we should show mercy to the people presenting them.

If one's arguement is suitably strong to step up and challenge another's it shouldn't require venom to prove a point. Discussion gets heated and then combusts into a flamewar ( often this is wonderfully entertaining, but not productive).

I find certain language unhelpful during conflict between posters. Saying something is 'stupid' or 'ignorant' does not help the other party understand your POV.

Words are all we have here, no tonality, no body language, and no gentle indicator the other party is still at the table invested in the discussion. How many chances do we have to foster understanding if we don't bother to select our words with care?

Ok now I need to listen to some Ministry and feel a little less tenderhearted towards the asshats. Brickfuckers, all of them.
 
 
Quantum
18:13 / 26.03.07
I think he nailed what fosters a good balanced way to explore these things, the middle path

Here's our three-strike diagram;



Mercy


Middle Pillar




Severity.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:54 / 26.03.07
MC- surely they can't *all* be Blonds for the Blond God types?

What, heathens/NT pagans generally? Certainly not. But folkists, yeah. They're not all white supremacist nutjobs but even the most moderate Folkie still insists that if you're going to be worshipping "their" Gods, you have to have some demonstrable Northern European ancestry sloshing around somewhere. But we are veering off topic.
 
 
Ticker
16:03 / 08.04.07
Can I get a Temple mod to give Epop the official sexism flag w/ link to a def of sexism?
sex·ism (sĕk'sĭz'əm) pronunciation
n.

1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.


Here use this one
 
 
Ticker
16:10 / 08.04.07
I believe the board is pretty clear on sexism, racism, and homophobia being ban-able offenses.

Epop is being straight up sexist. I say we give him 1 chance to shift or move for a ban.

I know you're all tired and drained but I think we can keep the nastiness to a min. I'm happy to get into it with him and have sent him a polite PM offering to discuss these things.
 
 
Ticker
16:13 / 08.04.07
here's a Epop post full of examples of sexism.
 
 
illmatic
16:27 / 08.04.07
I don't agree with warnings or anything or that nature. If only this board could behave like the rest of the poxy internet.

BAN and have done with it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:32 / 08.04.07
Also for banning. I get that last chances are Barbelithy but I'm just not happy with this guy even being here. If you can generate a meaningful dialogue, XK, then my hat is off to you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:37 / 08.04.07
Also, I think whoever gives the official warning should be not me given that I've already yelled at him as a private individual.
 
 
electric monk
16:38 / 08.04.07
I've messaged him with XK's sexism definition link and a warning. I don't have high hopes, but I think it's worth a try.
 
 
Ticker
16:45 / 08.04.07
Apophenia, on all the boards I know of mods will give at least 1 warning before hitting eject.

In some cases people honestly didn't realize they were giving offense. Obviously that's not the case here but I think it's an important thing to keep in mind.

I think part of the problem with the 'Lith is we don't have a clear escaluation plan. 1 warning for clear ban-able offense behavior with an invitation to discuss it off the main board if need be seems pretty standard.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:50 / 08.04.07
To be exact, it would be one warning delivered by a member or members of the board, followed by the beginning of a thread at the end of which somebody may or may not be banned. I'm not sure how one would "officialise" the warning, either, short of PMing Tom and asking him to intercede.
 
 
Ticker
19:14 / 08.04.07
mods don't have official warning capacity?
 
 
illmatic
19:27 / 08.04.07
Mods don't have any powers other than to edit/delete posts and to move, lock or delete threads. Moderation jobs flash up and normally one does nothing more than click approve. Most moderation jobs are very mundane i.e. correcting typos and links.

Where's the glamour I signed up for?
 
  

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