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Final Crisis

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
09:35 / 23.06.08
That's true, but only if people buy those large numbers - otherwise the discount translates only into a smaller loss. I think the logic goes like this:

You own a comic shop. You sell $4000 of Marvel and $4000 of DC product in a week. If you buy $4000 of DC inventory, you get a 55% discount on the price of the comic books, so you buy $4000 of inventory and put it on the shelves, where the number of buyers equals the number of copies on the shelf. So, you have bought $4000 of comic books (which numbers go to the Diamond sales figures) and sold $4000 of comic books (which is how many copies have actually been purchased by readers). If you buy $4000 of Marvel inventory, you do not get the 55% discount - therefore, it makes financial sense for you to buy $5000 of inventory, in the knowledge that you will not shift it all, because it will, post-discount, cost you less than buying $4000 of Marvel inventory would. Therefore, you have bought $5000 of Marvel inventory, which shows up as sales on the Diamond sales figures, but actually only $4000 of that goes into the hands of actual readers.

I'd like to see a more solid instantiation of this logic, however.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:22 / 23.06.08
I think we can safely assume that the discount is tiered - so that if you buy the $4000 of DC product, you get 55% discount only on the last $500 worth; this is how supplier-incentives work in my experience (and since we're on teh internets, my mere anecdotal evidence translates into immutable and objective fact, natch).

Otherwise, you can imagine a situation where one is buying $3499 of product; if one spends an extra dollar, one gets 55% off the whole order, thereby reducing the cost of the order to $1925 - which makes no sense whatsoever.

(I would further imagaine that if one were to buy $3000-$3500 worth, they might get, say, 35% off the $500 dollars between $3000-$3500, and so on and so forth)

So, the only benefit of buying more than Brightraven's $5k-$6k would be the discount that you get on the extra volume.

So, a sensible retailer would be best served by buying proportionally more DC product, and then promoting the buggery out of it, pocketing more discount per issue sold than if he had sold an equivalent amount of Marvel.

So:

Hypothetically, assume that there is no disount below $3500. Further, assume that cost per unit is $2.

So, your retailer purchases $4k worth - $3500 at $2 (1750 comics), and $500 at $1.10 (455). They sell ALL 2205 of these at $3 dollars, making $6614, a profit of $2614, and reducing the average cost per comic to $1.81. In effect, the extra $500 worth has reduced the cost by 19c per unit. The profit per comic is $1.19.

Now, let's assume that Marvel requires an order of $5500, and then one gets the 55% discount.

So, your retailer orders $6000. For this, he gets 2750 comics at $2, and 455 at $1.10. He sells all 3205 of them, making $9613, a profit of $3614. His average cost per comic, however, is $1.87, 6c more than the DC example, and he still needs to sell 1000 more units than in the DC example.

Now - imagine he had spent his $6000 on the DC product instead; he'd have made $6068 profit, having reduced the average cost to $1.49.


I've generalised and simplified horribly, but it works, I think for the sake of example.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:38 / 23.06.08
I think we can safely assume that the discount is tiered - so that if you buy the $4000 of DC product, you get 55% discount only on the last $500 worth


I'd expect so, but, as you say, it doesn't make any sense if this is the case, because then you are right that the best thing to do would be to sell as many DC comics as possible, since between 3,000 and 5,500 sales you are making (55-Marvel discount) per cent profit over the sale of Marvel comics.

So, either Brightraven is wrong, our maths is off or we are missing something.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
10:58 / 23.06.08
"The bit I don't understand here is why these numbers are ruining the comic book industry. Could somebody explain?"

The entire week's worth of internet-wide frothing for the head of DiDio and while you're there everyone else at DC can have its impetus traced directly to Final Crisis "coming in" "second" to Secret Invasion #2.

I'd say that's done a bit of damage. DiDio went from being scorned by fanboys to being publicly doubted by the Hollywood press corps.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:18 / 23.06.08
Well, it may well have done some damage to Dan Didio, but, really, does that involve the ruination of the comic book industry? Time Warner don't let what is going on in DC comics at present affect what they do with films based on DC properties. I iamgine that there are plenty of people just about as able as Didio, more or less, who could step into his shoes. Where's the ruining?

Further, I'm a little surprised if the Hollywood press corps give much of a toss about Dan Didio, or indeed know who he is. However you work the numbers, the number of people who read Secret Invasion and/or Final Crisis in the last month is - what? - 3% of the number of people who saw Get Smart in the last four days or so. Anyone in the Hollywood press pack chasing the Didio story is probably not doing their job very well. Do you have examples?

While we're here, could you flesh out the argument about the role of discounts in causing a disparity between comics sold to shops and comics bought by readers, or other problems with the Diamond sales ratings?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
11:30 / 23.06.08
I'm not 100% sure on the discount situation. We talked to retailers more about backordering and returns and stuff.

And I still think, in terms of "ruining the industry" it's just bad to foster the assumption that a bunch of whining fanboys and outdated metrics can get someone in a high position fired. Especially when 95% of those fanboys whining bought at least one if not more copies of Final Crisis #1, thus negating any actual impact of their opinion on the actual matter of concern to any TW bigwig: DiDio's Financial Impact On The Well Being Of DC Comics.
 
 
Neon Snake
11:36 / 23.06.08
"I'd expect so, but, as you say, it doesn't make any sense if this is the case, because then you are right that the best thing to do would be to sell as many DC comics as possible, since between 3,000 and 5,000 sales you are making (55-Marvel discount) per cent profit over the sale of Marvel comics."

It's not even just the sales between 3k and 5k where you are making more profit on DC than Marvel - it's all the sales above $3500, since you have to divide the cost for the total order by the number of units purchased. Since the discount from DC starts at a lower level than Marvel, the average cost per unit is automatically lower as soon as you start talking about anything above $3500.

"So, either Brightraven is wrong, our maths is off or we are missing something."

Well, Brightraven's credibility takes something of a knock when he starts talking about a friend of his who has liquidated 3 stores per week, every week, over the last 7 years.

My maths certainly may be off; even if it is, though, the principle remains the same.

Behold!

"You want to know why Marvel typically outsells DC? It’s because retailers have to order $5000-$6000 retail value in product monthly in order to get their 55%, and DC only requires $3500.

"When you have that large a discrepancy in orders and as a retailer you NEED that higher discount, what are you going to order more of? I’m amazed when DC (or anyone else) actually gets anything into the top ten in orders."

Now, let me present the same facts, but a different conclusion:

Retailers have to order $5000-$6000 retail value in Marvel product monthly in order to get their 55%, but DC only requires $3500.

When you have that large a discrepancy in orders and as a retailer you NEED that higher discount, what are you going to order more of? I’m amazed when Marvel (or anyone else) actually gets anything into the top ten in orders, seeing as you are financially better off by ordering larger quantities of DC.


Makes more sense, yes?

So...what are we missing?

Well...my hypothetical situation a few posts above relies on the shop selling everything they buy. This, clearly, should not be taken for granted.

If the shop doesn't sell everything, then, as you said, the discount only translates into a smaller loss.

So, maybe we can assume that retailers order what they think they can actually sell, rather than what they know will get them the higher discount?

Which brings us neatly back to a theory that suggests that Marvel are simply more popular with the fanbase at the moment than DC.

Frankly, the concept that "retailers order what they think will sell" is a lot more compelling to me than "retailers order what they think they can save the most money on, regardless of what will actually sell".
 
 
the Fool
01:15 / 25.06.08
erm, to get back to the actual comic itself...

Newsarama has a preview of issue #2 up now.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:18 / 25.06.08
Geez, Diana doesn't seem particularly hit that J'onn died, does she? Nor Clark. Man.

Also...Human Flame owes Libra. Hmm.

Interesting to see Lantern Corps politics address the idea of Hal and John being in a "club."
 
 
Neon Snake
05:07 / 25.06.08
"Geez, Diana doesn't seem particularly hit that J'onn died, does she? Nor Clark. Man."

They do seem more concerned about how they're going to communicate from now on than the fact that their friend just died.

"Say no more, Diana. Bruce, get your arse down Maplin's and pick up a dozen walkie-talkies, will ya?"

Meanwhile - Kraken as a character = awesome.
Green Lantern Corps as implied metaphor for the United States = clumsy.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:25 / 25.06.08
Given they've got a dead God and direct evidence of a renewed criminal conspiracy against superheroes based on the fact that Jonn's just been killed, I would expect game faces to be on and the immediate threat being addressed in favour of funerals being left until they need a quiet scene somewhere in issue four or something. The problem I have is when they make a big fuss over someone dying because there's every likelihood they'll be back later, I'm still plumping for someone working out the Anti-Anti-Life Equation which will bring back both Jonn and the New Gods before series end.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:27 / 25.06.08
Based on some slightly odd things said in this preview are there any outside issues to this mini that should be read for the fuller story?
 
 
Neon Snake
07:37 / 25.06.08
"Given they've got a dead God and direct evidence of a renewed criminal conspiracy against superheroes based on the fact that Jonn's just been killed, I would expect game faces to be on and the immediate threat being addressed in favour of funerals being left until they need a quiet scene somewhere in issue four or something."

Fair point. They're in the middle of performing an autopsy as well...

I guess that, seeing as we saw Green Arrow's reaction last issue, it's also possible that all the emotion has already happened, and now we're seeing the JLA address the material impact of losing J'onn, rather than the emotional one.


What were the 'odd things' that you picked up? I've been following most of the mini's and surrounding issues, and might be able to answer some of the queries.
 
 
Mario
09:41 / 25.06.08
I'm still plumping for someone working out the Anti-Anti-Life Equation which will bring back both Jonn and the New Gods before series end.

There is that dangling plotline about Firestorm and the Life Equation....

Based on some slightly odd things said in this preview are there any outside issues to this mini that should be read for the fuller story?

Nah... all you really need to know is that J'onn imitated Blockbuster and messed up one of Luthor's plans. The specific details might be interesting, but they aren't _necessary_.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:44 / 25.06.08
And there's a strong possibilty the details aren't that interesting.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:22 / 25.06.08
Plus, Luthor actually discovered that J'onn was masquerading as Blockbuster, and promptly imprisoned him in a big fiery cage.

Hence his response to Libra, I think.
"You killed the Martain Manhunter? Well, fuck-a-doodle-doo.
"I've had him imprisoned and at my mercy for the last several weeks, you numpty. In fact, that's where you found him, so stop giving it all the big 'un, will ya?"
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
10:41 / 25.06.08
re: wonder woman mourning martian manhunter and supes not caring that much. a proper eulology will be \ was given in FINAL CRISIS: REQUIEM.
 
 
osymandus
13:19 / 25.06.08
Wait im confused on the whole flame bit here , i thought MM was only affected by an "emothional" flame after the miniseries . Or did they just go quick retro con so we can actually catch him ??
 
 
Mario
14:40 / 25.06.08
That gets retconned every few years.

But even if it wasn't... hatred is an emotion too.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:29 / 25.06.08
Well, I suppose the "games faces on" is a good point, particularly when the majority of characters in the room have been dead at least once before, but I think it just indicates to me that the pacing might be a bit awkward by my standards -- but he's just writing in JLA form, so everything's happening really fast (and yet, and yet there was always some emotion going on back in those days, even with all the talking-and-walking West Wing action).

Actually, while I can find the "whenever Jean gets back from the dead this time" routine from the X-Men momentarily funny and then a little overplayed, I actively expect the League to have "In the event of death and/or awaiting resurrection" bylaws and contingencies (Like: "Has S.T.A.R. started monitoring for slow, arduous return of life signs in almost infinitesimal amounts?") in place. Hmm.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:45 / 25.06.08
Has anyone seen the solicits for "INFINITE CRISIS: REQUIEM FOR A MAKEWEIGHT" yet?
 
 
vajramukti
17:53 / 25.06.08
those preview pages appear out of sequence.there's a nice funeral scene for j'onn before what you've seen.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:28 / 25.06.08
Priest at funeral: "By all the moons of Mars, may the everlasting universe return our friend to us, in the revolving door of living and dead metahumans we know so well, and yea, may our friend J'Onn return in about 6-8 months' time looking as normal as Classic Coke, and not hating humans anymore, Amen. [whispers to assistant: This is the *first* time this one has died, right?]"
 
 
Mario
19:21 / 25.06.08
Random thought:

Aurakles cast a spear (that was never thrown) ahead through time to kill his enemy.

Darkseid & co fire bullets _backwards_ through time....
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:24 / 25.06.08
Yeah, I've read it now. I didn't like the funeral page, which was mysteriously divided into a triptych despite being, essentially, a badly drawn splash page. Jones was a little off his game this time 'round.

The big bit, I think, is the question of which god, exactly, has seeded hirself in Old Man Turpin.

Good opening to the issue, really loved the return of our buddy from before (he who escapes), but even then I note that I would have had no idea who half-the-cast was if I hadn't read the Fourth World omnibuses, like, three weeks ago.

Batman as Damsel, check.

Query: is it slightly worrying that most of what I liked about this issue was cribbed from Mozzer's old works, particularly Flex Mentallo?
 
 
Mario
19:31 / 25.06.08
Take a look at the way Turpin's face changes during the issue, especially his forehead. That'll answer your question, I think.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:37 / 25.06.08
Well, yeah, I got it. I was trying to be mysterious for the sake of no-spoilers.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
19:53 / 25.06.08
"STOP! You must be SUPERCOOL to proceed! YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!"

Wow, Sonny Sumo is awesome.

Is Darkseid now inside Turpin? After all, bodies wear fast in Earth, and he might have wanted to leave the body of "Boss Dark Side" for a new home. Everything points to that. He's more violent, Goode recognises him as Darkseid; plus there's that panel when Turpin is reflectedon a mirror in Mad Hatter's appartment. SEMIOTICS!

Loved the thing about building bodies for the Dark Gods in the "Evil Factory". Like in Promethea, If they didn't exist (in this plane of existence, at least) we would have to make them. So maybe that's the reason for the tiger guy from Kamandi to be there (and, by extension, the reason for all the animal people in Kamandi's future world), to be used as the evil gods' permanent bodies; after all, representations of gods with animal heads aren't, you know, new. Tiger head. Tiger head. I WORSHIP A GOD WITH AN TIGER HEAD!

...sorry, I had to.

Bullet Shot Backwards Through Time: Morrison 101
What's that we see inside the time-bullet in the (awesome) last page? Creepy.

And Flash reads the entire Internet! That can't be healthy.
 
 
Aertho
20:04 / 25.06.08
Isn't Kraken herself a New God?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:16 / 25.06.08
Well, she's a former resident of Apokolips, so yeah. But I'd be surprised if they remembered that, since nobody acts like she was.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
21:56 / 25.06.08
a much more enjoyable issue than #1. art still feels off at places, but i'm trying to forget it.


\\Tiger head. Tiger head. I WORSHIP A GOD WITH AN TIGER HEAD!\\

??

hope not...



\\And Flash reads the entire Internet! That can't be healthy.\\

he could only do that with a lot of computers at hand, or at least one with a huge memory to hold all the windows opened. =p


\\Loved the thing about building bodies for the Dark Gods in the "Evil Factory"\\

that goes back to ZENITH, even...



\\Wow, Sonny Sumo is awesome.\\

he and all the Super Young Team. loved all that sequence. I want a book with them NOW. SUPER YOUNG TEEEEAAM!

SUPER

YOUNG

TEAM!
 
 
Mario
22:03 / 25.06.08
All New Gods are from Apokolips (or New Genesis), but not all from Apokolips are gods. Darkseid kept most of his subjects whipped (often literally) and controlled who had powers and who didn't.

The Gods of New Genesis were much freer with their gifts (which was basically the point, really).
 
 
SiliconDream
02:04 / 26.06.08
he could only do that with a lot of computers at hand, or at least one with a huge memory to hold all the windows opened.

Or he could just speed-boost the computer itself, which he's done before. (He's actually speed-boosted a modem to accelerate the data to unreadability, which isn't any more nonsensical than the rest of Wally's life.)

And hey, with his list of friends, the Batcave rig is probably the slowest computer he has access to.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
02:54 / 26.06.08
//he and all the Super Young Team. loved all that sequence. I want a book with them NOW. SUPER YOUNG TEEEEAAM!//

Oh, totally. It should be about them just getting drunk in trendy clubs and then getting into super bar fights.

And I NEED a Superbat T-Shirt, with all the yellow bits from Superman's logo.
 
 
onorthocrasi
03:44 / 26.06.08
I had this idea that Libra is going to turn out to be Klarion. I dont have SS1 handy but if i remember right it ends with Klarion in control of Frankenstein and both dice AI's with some Sheeda babes getting a little slutty. Maybe something that happens after that is why evil finally has the upper hand.

Plus Libra is the seventh astrological sign, that seems like it might be a potential clue, as well as fitting in with the idea of libra unbalancing good and evil.

Something about how he says things like "who says im human anyway" and "why dont we go back inside and talk about... well... about what you owe me" makes me think it could be a further fallen Klarion.

Plus GM has said Frankenstein will be back... why not Klarion as well?

Im loving this book, GM really brought it.
 
  

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