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Final Crisis

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:20 / 30.06.08
It's whether you have free will when you take in to account the dimension of time. The Invisibles could no more give up their fight than Boy could continue hers, but if they had really had too well I would have liked to have seen Boy maintain her "saving the earth is what misers do" pacifist bullshit while an Archon is eating her daughter's face off.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:47 / 30.06.08
It's also the fact that the Invisibles felt, to the characters, like a series of events happening to them, but to us, from the position of the supercontext, it was a comicbook spell whose elements were always in exactly the right order at the right time.
 
 
Mario
14:01 / 30.06.08
There's always been something Gnostic about Darkseid. His biggest power is the control of base matter (the Omega Effect) and he talks a lot (under Grant's pen) about trapping or being trapped in the flesh.

Meanwhile both Lightray and Mister Miracle are all about the release.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
14:34 / 30.06.08
I have a "dumb" question; but what are the New Gods gods of...what specific things do they embody?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:57 / 30.06.08
It's a bit questionable, isn't it, that they have specific attributions? Some of them do (Scott Free = Freedom/Escape, Orion = War, Lightray = Light), others don't.
 
 
Mario
20:00 / 30.06.08
Not so much. For example, it's clear that Desaad is Pain, and Granny Discipline, but Kanto and Mantis don't embody anything in particular. Neither do the Furies or the Forever People.
 
 
Mark Parsons
20:56 / 30.06.08
Wondering along those lines: are the inhabitants of Armaghetto and other Apokalyptian cities gods, lesser gods, demi-celestials, etc? Is everybody we see toga-ing about on New Genesis a god? How does this work?

Why are some gods culture based (Greek, Norse, etc) while the New Gods seem concept based (peace vs war; love vs. hate)? If the Old Gods destroyed themselves, and gave rise to the NGs, then where do Wonder Woman's Greek Gods fit into the equation?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:26 / 30.06.08
They didn't, originally, but more recent iterations have the Greek Gods (and others) as imperfect reflections generated by the "Godwave" from the Source. Or something. To be honest, I wasn't really paying that much attention to John Byrne -- and yes, it's his fault -- was blathering on. I'm more in favour of Kirby's solution in The Eternals, i.e. -- the Eternals were creatures in Earthling myth, under various names or spellings of names.

My understanding was that everyone who resided in Supertown -- that big classy city in the sky above New Genesis -- was a god, as were a few sundries apart from that (I'm thinking Lonar, the Kirbian Barbarian God dude) -- whereas, otherwise, the other inhabitants of New Genesis were "bugs" -- though still human by our standards, or more than human.

I think it's similar with Apokolips -- by our standards, the non-Gods on either world are a lot higher than we are, strength/lifetime-wise, but compared to the big heavies, they weren't unequal or outright pathetic. On Darkseid's part this is more a product of rigid class systems designed to propogate his divinity over others.

There might also be an element of gnostic division -- when the Old Gods' world was sundered, most of the divine power went to New Genesis, while only a little bit stayed with Apokolips, which was all the base material goo congealed into an ugly sore of a place.
 
 
captainkyle
21:52 / 30.06.08
not sure precisely what generated this idea, probably our tendency (in my shop) to throw out any theory about anything just to have a horse in the race (today i re-confirmed my absolute belief general ross is the red hulk) but:

i was encouraging everyone, including parents who could not care less about comics, to buy and read the first two issues of 'final crisis' while simultaneously explaining what it's all about to a friend in the store.

when i started talking about libra, with the crime bible at his side and the way he's infiltrating the villain's side despite only having one appearance under his belt, as well as the way he swiftly killed martian manhunter to prove himself, i said "of course, it wouldn't surprise me at all if libra were actually renee montoya sent in by the heroes to destabilize the forces of evil and was scamming everyone, presumably with the help of j'onn."

is that even a possibility? i remember grant mentioning renee would be in the first issue and the last, and that seemed appropriate to establish who she was at the start so it wouldn't blow the minds of casual readers when she unmasks at the end.

i never really, at least with full attention, read the 'crime bible' mini-series so i have no real idea of who ended up with the thing. but it occurred to me and it seemed like it could fit, so i was wondering if there is anything that makes it blatantly impossible.
 
 
Mario
22:31 / 30.06.08
Wondering along those lines: are the inhabitants of Armaghetto and other Apokalyptian cities gods, lesser gods, demi-celestials, etc? Is everybody we see toga-ing about on New Genesis a god? How does this work?

The interpretation I like is that every inhabitant of both worlds has the potential for power. But while on New Genesis, they encourage the young to develop their skills, Darkseid has his population so whipped (literally, on occasion) that they can't even conceive of their true ability.

Unless, of course, they happen to run into Himon....
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:47 / 30.06.08
Was Himon a spy from New Genesis or was he a freak of Apokolips? I can't remember, but I don't think that was clear in the original story -- and I'm at work, so I have no omnibi in arm's reach.
 
 
Aertho
23:36 / 30.06.08
Himon = Infinity Man = Libra = John A Dreams?
 
 
Mario
23:41 / 30.06.08
Himon was a New Genesis native (he invented the Mother Box), who chose to live on Apokalips and work to subvert Darkseid's reign. He mentored Scott Free, and had an annoying habit of escaping certain death
 
 
Mark Parsons
02:40 / 01.07.08
He also invented Boom Tubes, IIRC. Any maybe Mother Boxes and Metron's Chair. There was a great scene in on eof the Omnibuses (v3) where Metron and Himon meet up and greet one another as Master architect/Master Planner, something like that that suggested SO MUCH great story that Kirby never got to mine out.

After FC, I would love to see GM do a 5th World mini, assuming he has more to say on the subject.

I'm pretty taken aback by the FC-directed vitriol elsewhere on the net RE this series.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:59 / 01.07.08
Vitriol: any of certain metallic sulfates of glassy appearance, as copper sulfate or blue vitriol, iron sulfate or green vitriol, zinc sulfate or white vitriol, etc.

You don't mean vitriol. You mean that people said they didn't like it. For bonus points, please tell us why people are saying that they don't like it and what exactly about those expressions of not liking are taking you aback.
 
 
Mark Parsons
19:20 / 01.07.08
Yes, I did mean:

Vitriol: subject to bitter verbal abuse; cruel and bitter criticism.

I am thinking of a thread at Savage Critic

Where some guy named K-Box, an f'gosh sakes REPORTER an all, rages on about FC and Morrison.

There's some of the usual GM backlash at Newsarama, but I do not have the energy to go there just now.

I'm not trying to suggest Morrison is beyond criticism, etc, just expressing surprise at how fiercely some fans/readers dislike his "intellectual" or "obtuse" stories.

Please bear in mind that I am not referring to Barbelithian vitriol, which is of a far higher caliber that vitriol elsewhere.
 
 
Triplets
19:43 / 01.07.08
You bitch.
 
 
Mario
19:48 / 01.07.08
Kirk's OK. I'm a regular over on his forum.
 
 
Spaniel
20:05 / 01.07.08
Mark, isn't vitriol leveled at every high profile book? Is this instance really anything special?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:12 / 01.07.08
Haus, check a dictionary for God's sake.
 
 
The Falcon
20:26 / 01.07.08
Secret Invasion, thus far, and World War Hulk were generally well-received I think - comics is a ridiculous hobby, really, given how much the most ardent hobbyists get upset like a metronome over wee stories that are supposed to be fun and exciting.

I'm interested how those here that weren't keen on #1 felt about #2, assuming they read it still, of course; it does feel a bit stiff thus far - I can't decide if it's because of Jones' overposed art (kid used to do kinesis), the fact that (okay 52 was quite good, in places) the whole line has been basically steeping itself in the quicksand of tepidity for so long or, you know, universe waking up. Yawn, shower, maybe exercise. Possiblyly all of the above.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:39 / 01.07.08
I probably pitched that a bit high, Keith. Let me try to explain it a little more simply. "Vitriol" is used, inevitably and tediously, to describe criticism with which the writer does not agree. It is never usefully qualified, and expects assent simply by the use of the magic word "vitriol". As a sign of a lazy argument, it's up there with "hippocracy/hipocracy/hypocrysy". Along with "oversensitive", it is a word I would ban from the language, because to do so would make people clever.

On the plus side, Final Crisis is livening up, isn't it? I question the competence of anyone finding it hard to follow, especially since it is made up of Morrison trops that have been in the language since the 90s. Kiddies in camps - Zenith, Klarion, check! They-make-you-amnesia naught sexy dirty mind control - Zenith, Invisibles, Filth, you name it, really - check! Our weapons are useless against it? Oh, checkity-check-check! This is all good stuff, albeit a rehash of both Rock of Ages and World War III, and lots more fun than all the scene setting. Whoatu the Notcher is definitely lining up to be the Question-style damp blanket of the story so far, but we'll see how it goes. Most Excellent Superbat rocks quite hard, although it would be nice to have a Japanese superhero who is not a bloody sumo wrestler (Goraiku) or a kerazy Toyman otaku. Still, that will be resolved by the Return of Other Doctor Light.

I'm getting a wee bit dizzy with the bail-in and bail-out, but this seems to be the state of DC at the moment. After Seven Soldiers, everyone largely ignored it, barring the odd crowd scene, for two years, and now it's back, baby! Like it.

Meanwhile, is anyone a bit worried about JG Jones? Some of the line work is really quite odd.
 
 
Mark Parsons
20:53 / 01.07.08
Haus: it's not that I disagree with the comments I alluded to earlier, just the somewhat corrosive "I'm right/It's garbage" tone. It reminds me of right wing radio (US) at its worst.

Boboss: yes, there is bellyaching aplenty everywhere, that is true.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:07 / 01.07.08
Meanwhile, is anyone a bit worried about JG Jones? Some of the line work is really quite odd.

I found myself a bit disappointed, as well, which is not a feeling I usually associate with JG Jones. Perhaps this is why....erm, Pacheco, is it?, is being called in.

#2 certainly was better than #1, but I'm kind of also bummed about it, because the confusing scenarios and sense of "what could have been" surrounding #1 left a definite, um, "bad feeling," over reading #2.

However, thank you for turning me onto Hippocracy. People are nuts.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:45 / 01.07.08
That's silly. Hippocrites are, of course, judges. Activist hippo judges.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:30 / 01.07.08
Vandal Savage was particularly curious in treatment, but it's a bit of a funny one - comparing this work to, say, Marvel Boy is quite surprising. Is the new chap coming in for issue 3? I don't really know his work - I recall his characters in Excalibur having very large feet, I think.
 
 
Mark Parsons
00:08 / 02.07.08
Pacheco starts on issue 4, after the one month break - Where Evil Cools Its Heals After Winning.

I like his art, but do not know where he is coming from (other than Spain). I know his work from Avengers Forever and Busiek's recentish SUPERMAN run: the Pacheco storylines were great fun and the art very appealing. Not, however, much of a match for JGJ's more stylized art. Still, an interesting combo. Arrowsmith (?) set in WWI, looked really nice too.
 
 
Mark Parsons
00:11 / 02.07.08
"You bitch."

 
 
Rachel Evil McCall
22:57 / 02.07.08
Not so much. For example, it's clear that Desaad is Pain, and Granny Discipline, but Kanto and Mantis don't embody anything in particular. Neither do the Furies or the Forever People.

Stompa embodies STOMPING.


Also, has anybody been reading Infinity, Inc.? It seems that the evil psychiactrist may be Desaad. Or somebody else. Either way, he's flatly stated a connection to Darkseid/side.
 
 
The Falcon
23:02 / 02.07.08
He has? Christ, I've been trying to reread that with my serious face for a blog entry (conclusion: Peter Milligan could have made 2-3 good Peter Milligan comics out of what we have and it's, generally, been quite shit) but that flew right by me.
 
 
ciarconn
23:59 / 02.07.08
There was a Desaad/evil psychiatrist in Mr Miracle from 7S, no?
 
 
Mario
00:10 / 03.07.08
Different looking chap.

Apparently, this week's Infinity Inc. makes the connection obvious, but I haven't seen it.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
06:34 / 03.07.08
Kanto doesn't embody anything?!

KANTO = KILLIN'
 
 
Triplets
08:37 / 03.07.08
Lashina = LASHINGS

of PAIN
 
 
Mark Parsons
20:21 / 03.07.08
Lashina is also the goddess of spanking. And belts.
 
  

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