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Final Crisis

 
  

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The Natural Way
15:37 / 10.06.08
Uh, hold on, how complicated exactly is this? The falling figure isn't the narrator? What?

I think this is just getting silly.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:24 / 10.06.08
Go read some Yotsuba&!, she'll make you feel better.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
16:40 / 10.06.08
That is a pretty obtuse plot point of DC#0...that really doesn't make a lot of sense, considering the falling figure is tied to the lightning that is very strongly portrayed to be Barry. Are we given to understand the lightning and the falling figure are two separate things? I'll have to read DC#0 again but I certainly didn't read it that way the first time.
 
 
Aertho
17:01 / 10.06.08
Barry = Darkseid?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:05 / 10.06.08
Barkseid. Which will feed into next year's Fourth World/Zoo Crew/Spectacular Spider-Ham inter-company crossover next year, though they'll be doing a "Countdown to Fowl Crisis" series in between.
 
 
Mario
17:23 / 10.06.08
I don't have the issue handy (being at work) but didn't the figure stop falling (and make a sound "like the crack of doom") while Libra was talking?

But the narrator kept talking until the black turned completely to red...
 
 
vajramukti
17:31 / 10.06.08
yeah I dunno. I'm okay with it being a dramatic parallel. a twin descent if you like.

It just pisses me off when people who ought to know better go on about how 'they don't understand what's going on'. Not understanding how the page is composed and the words in the balloons is one thing, but that's not what it is... expecting that every allusion or refference needs to be made absolutely clear the very moment it appears is just being obtuse.

I'm not raving at anyone here BTW, I just read lying in the gutters and rich just takes a total stereotype cheap shot at GM and final crisis that just strikes me as complete lazy bullshit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:13 / 10.06.08
...cracks me up in light of some of our discussions and arguments in this thread.

Yes, that is pretty funny. A good example of a workman blaming a load of tools - quite a lot, in fact, like the whole "schizophrenics can't process metaphor" bit.

Really, bottom line: DC editorial, and the writers who create for DC editorial, are in the business of selling this stuff to slightly weird, obsessive adolescents of all ages. They know that this readership tends to like stories to cohere, at least for a period. If Greg Murchison failed to communicate adequately what he needed from the end of "The Death of the New Gods" to Jim Starlin, or if Jim Starlin failed to deliver that, or indeed if DC editorial failed to manage the process so that one creative team did not know what another creative team was doing, that was a corporate failure of the kind that people who write books or films or TV shows - people in the kinds of disciplines followers of which often look down on comics as being slipshod hackwork, oddly enough - get criticised for making. If somebody is wearing a green shirt in one shot and a red shirt in the next shot, it is called a continuity error. What happened here was poor management of continuity - not in the sense of thirty years of comics history, but in the sense of two things being created at about the same time failing to cohere. Personally, this doesn't bother me particularly, because I neither know nor care what happened in The Death of the New Gods, but I am apparently not the representative market for this product.

It's embarrassing, and if I were supposed to be good at this sort of thing I would certainly feel angry and annoyed that it had happened. However, I hope I would be mature enough not to try to blame the Internets for focussing on the missing leg of the chair and thus failing to see the beautiful knotwork.
 
 
Aertho
18:33 / 10.06.08
Barkseid
 
 
doctoradder
21:22 / 10.06.08
It's embarrassing...

It's more than embarrassing... it betrays a shocking contempt for the readers, whether the problem is emanating from editorial or the writer(s). There are people who dropped, what, $153 or so on Countdown to Final Crisis, only to find that it counts down to precisely nothing. It has no bearing on Final Crisis whatsoever... the writer of FC is actively ignoring it. No wonder Joe Quesada was snickering about Final Crisis months ago... this is no way to run a Universe, people.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:01 / 11.06.08
Well yes, but didn't you feel a bit for Mitchell during the Newsarama interview? There wasn't much of the usual banter. Instead, there seemed to be the looming realisation that he's going to have to do a lot more like that (having to explain some plot points, while, under pressure from a seething man, refusing to give away others) probably on an issue by issue basis, for some time to come.

All the stuff about Jack Kirby's genius reminded of the sort of avoidance stategy Oor Wullie used to employ before he wound up, inevitably, with a skelped erse, atop his bucket.

On the other hand, what else can George, or really anyone working in short serial fiction ask of their reviewers*, except that they get to the end of the thing before they start asking (too many) questions?

* The reader's entitled to pack the series in anytime they like, of course.
 
 
vajramukti
02:11 / 11.06.08
I don't think you can hold grant responsible for the content of issues that he wasn't paid to write. and if the chain of events is what it apparently is, then it falls squarely at the feet of dc editorial, and they should be the ones defending their shit work, and yes, frankly shocking contempt for the poor bastards who shelled out for a countdown to the square root of fuck all. I personally couldn't care less becuase I never even looked at countdown or any of that seriously, and FC looks just fine to me, and I think it will rise to expectations. But someone over at DC needs to be smacked. It would have taken five minutes of rewites and half a braincell to at least pay lip service to continuity, but I guess that means they can't spare five minutes and half a brain cell, then.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
04:39 / 11.06.08
editorial at DC fucked up big time with this, maybe for not wanting to pass the chance of doing something with Starlin - and it would have to be "something cosmic". or they went after him to put out this cosmic shit they haaaad to do in order to gather buzz for FC... and yeah, a cheap shot from Rich, oldskool style; i only care for what comic pros are saying if we get to know who they are \ what they said. Rich's better than that, i know he can get the dirt on what the hell happened behind the curtains.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
12:22 / 11.06.08
Yeah, I think I have to come down on the side of GM on this, really. He's been talking and writing about these themes/ideas for awhile now, and pitched DC the idea of Final Crisis quite awhile back. If they weren't going to control the rest of the universe to feed into FC properly, that's pretty crass to do to one of your biggest-selling writers. GM has obviously invested a lot of time and energy into DC over the past couple years. They didn't exactly show him much kindness as they were gearing up for this big event.

All that said, both DC#0 and FC#1 have some extremely tenuous plotting/writing that can't be completely explained away by outside books.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:16 / 11.06.08
Not wishing to criticise, Keith, but you are not on GM's side on this. GM is not complaining about the failure to keep a continuous storyline between Countdown, DotNG and Final Crisis, merely recognising it as a consequence of events out of his hands. He is complaining that people discussing the Crisis crossovers online are not ready to accept that the reason for this is that the events depicted elsewhere were shaky and apocryphal accounts - that they are, where necessary, taken to be dreams, stories or imaginary tales - and move on as if everything they had purchased so far did indeed lead up to and dovetail with Final Crisis.

Looking at this dispassionately, it's hard to criticise too much - it's an oft-repeated maxim that the fans pay the wages of entertainers, but actually this is not true. The employers pay the wages of entertainers, and it is therefore considered good practice, I imagine, to follow the party line. Most of the time, fortunately, fans will do likewise so that, should the entertainer pop round for tea and swingball, there will not be any awkward pauses in the conversation. So, those who were expecting story coherence from DC's multi-year crossover event are identified as having concerns quite simply beyond the pale bordering acceptable comic-book geekiness - much like those who saw in the beginning of a series such as Wildcats or the Authority an implicit undertaking to provide some form of middle and end.

One interesting thing about this is that I think the difference between activists and base is far smaller with comics - you don't get 100,000 people talking on the Internet and 8 million people just watching/reading, as you might with a movie or an album - you just get 100,000 talking on the Internet _and nobody else_. What that does to the dynnamic? It's an interesting question, but probably outwith the scope of this discussion.
 
 
Mario
13:34 / 11.06.08
Since I divorced the real-world office politics behind Countdown (et al) from FC itself, I've found a lot of things to ponder. Anybody want to discuss the fire imagery?
 
 
Aertho
15:20 / 11.06.08
Where in particular?
 
 
Mario
16:19 / 11.06.08
Oh, it's all through the issue.

Metron gives fire to Anthro, turning him into a hero.
Turpin talks about fire's negative side, and is burned by Orion's touch.
The Human Flame is the first convert to Libra's cause, and watches as a hero is killed by a burning spear (ie, with fire).
If you wanted to stretch the point, you could include the philosophical firebrands Godfrey and Green arrow, both using words to ignite public opinion.

There's a lot of Mars/God of War imagery, too. Given that Mars & fire are linked in classical astronomy, I'm wondering if later issues will continue this approach, or focus on other planet/element combinations.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:28 / 11.06.08
I suspect, given how much emphasis in the hype the Human Flame has been given, that the fire imagery will probably continue pretty heavily -- mostly because this is the end, evil wins, fire and brimstone. Fire also has a cleansing aspect and maybe Metron's gift will return to burn away the cancerous Apokolips influences...possibly when, say, lightning strikes in a Flash and starts a holy fire?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:34 / 11.06.08
It is obvious that Metron is Prometheus. He gives man fire as the gift that sparks civilisation - see the repelling of VANDAL DO YOU SEE SAVAGE DO YOU SEE and his penchant for rapine. However, Prometheus was punished by the GODS DO YOU SEE, and man was punished also by the unleashing of the evils DO YOU SEE of the world from Pandora's box. Note that the dark side club is a strip joint, the symbolism of which should be clear to all, and that the enemy of the anti-life equation is hope, which was the last thing kept in Pandora's box.
 
 
Mario
16:35 / 11.06.08
Here's a question for you...

If Darkseid's victory led to him falling back through time to become "Boss Dark Side", what does that say about Orion? Did he die in this issue, or fall back in time as well?

He was in 7S:Mister Miracle, after all.
 
 
LDones
17:01 / 11.06.08
GM is not complaining about the failure to keep a continuous storyline between Countdown, DotNG and Final Crisis, merely recognising it as a consequence of events out of his hands. He is complaining that people discussing the Crisis crossovers online are not ready to accept that the reason for this is that the events depicted elsewhere were shaky and apocryphal accounts

I'd say that's stretching it a bit.

In reference to previously posted skepticism about themes in Final Crisis that might decry the degradation of superhero fiction, born out of reader's fatigue regarding DC's constant promises to lighten up its universe after just a few more dismemberments and sexual assaults - I've felt that, too.

I think, for me, the question of whether I can take that kind of idea from a Grant Morrison comic with a straight face boils down to whether or not I think of his comics output as something separate from DC's output in general. Does that make sense? I don't think it's reaching much to say that his work stands well apart from other writing in the medium. I don't measure a Grant Morrison (or Brendan McArthy, or Kiyohiko Azuma) comic by the quality of its neighbors, or the track record of its editors.

I don't know if the man has any illusions about his ability to change the standing company line on deeply maladjusted comics doom & gloom with his Big Event Story, but he's certainly commenting on that phenomenon with this first issue.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:02 / 11.06.08
Mario, that firebrand stuff.... Mate. No. That is not fire symbolism.
 
 
Mario
17:10 / 11.06.08
The only reason I thought it might fit at all is that I vaguely recall reading that a similar character, the new Firebrand, was one of Grant's ideas. But I did say it was a stretch

There's plenty of fire to go around without them.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:19 / 11.06.08
There's no point in stretches like that, they only make you look slightly silly. Like men with bums for hat.

Bum Heads.

God, I need to go to bed.
 
 
Mug Chum
17:21 / 11.06.08
Well, if one would consider language as part of the promethean "fire" (considering the bastard is drawing symbols on the ground and on his face)...

There's also the statue of liberty's torch (Anthro was drawn in one panel so he'd resemble the statue, right?), and the panel of Anthro "grabbing the sunset" with his hand after Kamandhi shows up. There's also the red skies and raining blood, if one wish to bring further the red-mars connections (but it just seems to be biblical imagery and something about The Bleed).

But even so... just... well, let me stop here. I wrote and said 'screw it' on long-ass posts with this issue too many times already.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:30 / 11.06.08
GM is not complaining about the failure to keep a continuous storyline between Countdown, DotNG and Final Crisis, merely recognising it as a consequence of events out of his hands. He is complaining that people discussing the Crisis crossovers online are not ready to accept that the reason for this is that the events depicted elsewhere were shaky and apocryphal accounts

I'd say that's stretching it a bit

Grant Morrison: As it is, the best I can do is suggest that the somewhat contradictory depictions of Orion and Darkseid’s last-last-last battle that we witnessed in Countdown and DOTNG recently were apocryphal attempts to describe an indescribable cosmic event.

...

The way I see it readers can choose to spend the rest of the year fixating on the plot quirks of a series which has ended, or they can breathe a sight of relief, settle back and enjoy the shiny new DC universe status quo we’re setting up in the pages of Final Crisis and its satellite books. I’m sure both of these paths to enlightenment will find adherents of different temperaments.


Is reading things unfashionable now? Is reading just like office politics? Or is it just that nobody posted a link to that interview? Now, let me continue my _close reading_ of Final Crisis 1.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:40 / 11.06.08
Now, hope. The Ancient Greek word for hope is elpis. The "el" there might seem to stand for the House of El, or Luthor, or even LIbra, but in fact it stands for "Light" - Doctor Light. The "pis" is a suggestion that he did this all over Sue Dibney in an as-yet-unshown episode (comics grows up!), which will be shown in the run-up to the Spectre drowning him in a huge vat of spectral urine.

Now, light can be a good thing and a bad thing - light drives out darkness, but light is also, as we have manifestly seen, a rapist. It is also one of the energies created by fire. An obvious contrast is the the white light of evil Doctor Light and the green lanterns - who radiate green light. And remember, boys and girls (just boys, at this point, realistically) , the pre-crisis golden age Green Lantern is empowered not by the Guardians of Oa but merely by a mysterious green FLAME. However, what greater contrast is there with Doctor Light than Doctor Light? Expect Arthur Light to die (in a big vat of piss) and Kimiyo Hoshi to take centre stage again ("take centre stage" here meaning "be largely ignored").

Stay tuned for the shocking revelation of the IDENTITY OF LIBRA!
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:45 / 11.06.08
Not wishing to criticise, Keith, but you are not on GM's side on this. GM is not complaining about the failure to keep a continuous storyline between Countdown, DotNG and Final Crisis, merely recognising it as a consequence of events out of his hands. He is complaining that people discussing the Crisis crossovers online are not ready to accept that the reason for this is that the events depicted elsewhere were shaky and apocryphal accounts - that they are, where necessary, taken to be dreams, stories or imaginary tales - and move on as if everything they had purchased so far did indeed lead up to and dovetail with Final Crisis.

I suppose I should have been clearer by what I meant by being on his side. Basically, I think it is DC's fault moreso than GM's that DC#0 and FC#1 don't quite make sense in light of the hinky stuff going on with the New Gods immediately prior to the publication of those 2 comics. DC kind of screwed his grand epic over a little bit by not keeping a tighter rein on continuity. Which obviously isn't new. But it's led to a lot of second-guessing of GM's writing and that seems a bit unfair.

Not that I think GM is the clearest writer in the world by any stretch. But there was a circumstance in which the continuity displayed in FC#1 made sense at some point in time... but forces outside of GM's control mucked it up a bit.

Anyway... second issue here yet?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:54 / 11.06.08
Right. The Martian Manhunter is killed by a flaming spear, as Mario observed, but before that he was immobilised by "pyro-tranquilisers". I CAN'T BELIEVE NOBODY MENTIONED THAT AS A REFERENCE TO FIRE WHEN GODFREY GOODE IS ROPED IN. He is drugged, or poisoned.

Another word for poison is toxin. This comes from the Ancient Greek "toxon", meaning bow, via toxikos. Incidentally, this may be related to "taxus", meaning "yew", which was both a good material for making bows and a source of poison for arrowheads. What is the message? It is that YEW (you) have POISONED the DC Universe, by demanding lots of stories about rape and Black Adam pulling people's heads off, WHICH YOU (yew) ALL DID. However, let's not get sidetracked.

So, the Martian Manhunter is immobilised by toxin, which is a bit like a bow - perhaps the pyro-tranquilisers are therefore a bit like a "boxing glove arrow" to the nervous system of the Martian. He is then pierced by a pointed object, even though it has been repeatedly demonstrated that this is not an effective way to kill the Martian Manhunter. It being on fire probably helps. But what are we missing? Would you like to know what we are missing? Right. Libra means the scales, as we all know. Scales are made from a solid bit and some string - just like a bow. They have tension - just like a bow, and balance - just like a bow. The law is represented by the scales, and the law has a long arm - handy for archery - and a considerable pull - just like a powerful bow. What's more, Libra is a sign of the zodiac, as is Saggitarius, the archer.

Hal Jordan went mad in Zero Hour and tried to kill everyone. Hal Jordan's ring is green. Green arrow wears green. Green arrow killed Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan became the spectre. The Spectre is green. The Spectre is a balance to the mercy of God. Do you see where this is going?

Want to know why Green Arrow is being so shouty and aggressive at the end? Because he's evil.
 
 
Mug Chum
17:59 / 11.06.08
But, Keith, even if DC screwed up (and yeah, it did), is it any good on its own and critics of the issue have no base whatsoever other than the fact that they're arrested continuity-obsessive freaks like Morrison suggests?

Even if DC had done a fantastic job of tying the continuity of something called "Countdown to Final Crisis" to "Final Crisis" or something else that didn't matched, is it any good (yes, considering it's only a first issue; that someone's dislike for it is not based on rushed judgement and that they should wait out for more issues)? Or does it presuposes way too much of the reader's interest in way too many places, and it's just not very appealing?

Ahm, Haus, I'm feeling the ironic reachy posts are somewhat directed at me, or a response to my post. Am I supposed to be engaging here in any way with them?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:04 / 11.06.08
Dude, where's the reaching? I may have over-egged the Green Lantern/Libra bit somewhat, the strip club gag was in poor taste and I'm not 100% on the giant vat of piss, but most of this stuff is pretty clear in the text.
 
 
Mug Chum
18:18 / 11.06.08
sigh just wanted to point out what I saw in my reading, and sort of make the argument that even if there might be all these little bits (basically just thrown) in there, they still feel lazy, badly presented, aren't taken anywhere interesting enough for a first issue, and at times it's problematic. I'll stay out.
 
 
Spaniel
18:46 / 11.06.08
Great analysis, Haus. Important stuff there.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:18 / 11.06.08
That said, is anyone else getting event fatigue? Marvel and DC have both done this thing where they have huge overarching events which have tied together a whole bunch of events - Secret Invasion over with Marvel, and Identity Crisis/Infinite Crisis/52/One Year Later/Countdown/Final Crisis at DC. It feels a bit like the Permanent Campaign methodology of the Bush administration, in a way - there;s just Important! Event! after Important! Event!

Ziparrow - by the way, I really wasn't intending to mock you. I may possibly have been poking a _tiny_ bit of fun at Mario missing the pyrotranquilisers, admittedly. I was seeking to suggest that it's really quite easy to draw all sorts of conclusions if one allows oneself to wander a bit. Certainly, identifying thematic elements seems a valid way of approaching a text, although simply making laundry lists of things that are possibly a bit like fire, or twins, seems a bit of a collectory way of doing it. However, doing so does not identify whether or not these thematic elements are interesting or are being used well, which I think is a point where a lot of comics quote-unquote criticism falls down quite hard. Personally, I think some of my analysis above is obviously intended to be funny, some of it is at least rather silly and some of it seems at least to me to be blindingly obvious.
 
  

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