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Final Crisis

 
  

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Spaniel
08:36 / 04.06.08
The accusation is that Grant's resting on his laurels, Natural, which feeds into the phoning it in thing. Cosmic event? Quick, have the Green Lanterns seal off a planetoid, now BACK TO SLEEP!

Personally I'm happy for Morrison to develop a shorthand language for cosmosity, but I can see how people could less generous.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:39 / 04.06.08
why the CSI lanterns were shit

Not so much "shit" as "cited earlier as an example of GM's brilliant out there unique one-in-a-million ideas when it seems pretty by-the-numbers to me". Maybe it is something to do with not reading many superhero comics - or having read them - the novelty makes it easier for Final Crisis to please? That's aside from those, like PatrickMM, who long ago mastered the Anti-Taste Equation.
 
 
Mario
11:36 / 04.06.08
I've turned a corner on FC #1. While I still find it a little disjointed, I've decided that it's not nearly as bad as I thought it was. True, huge swaths of continuity are ignored, but that's not automatically a bad thing (see Simonson's "Young Odin" story, which ripped apart the "Odin's Eye" origin).

And just because some questions haven't been answered, doesn't mean that they _won't_ be.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:43 / 04.06.08
Having re-read this on a delayed train this morning, the dialogue between John Stewart and Hal Jordan is fine, really - the code-for-deicide is quite silly, and the whole thing is a bit too much like Top 10 for its own good, really. It's the "dust for radiation prints" part that pushed it over the top into awfulness.

I'm liking the Mirror Master and Doctor Light comedy gravedigger bit more and more, if primarily in contrast (and speaking of which, wasn't Empress African-American, back in the day?) - although there's always that tricky bit where the boundary between characters being weird about sex and authors being weird about sex overlaps. Having said which, Identity Crisis also started with a mysterious object McGuffin and a minor crim.

The Libra bit was quite poor - this is not entirely the writer's fault, since a) Libra's costume is about as impressive as the Nokia N-Gage and in much the same way and b) the death of the MM might have been a bit more resonant if he had still been MM classic rather than MM Torture Garden. As was, it felt like a mercy killing. Nonetheless, I can't work out what kind of "voice" Libra is supposed to have. Effete master criminal? Smooth-talking huckster? Portentous Crime Preacher? His characterisation already seems lurchy on the strength of two appearances.

Turpin and the Darkside Club I just can't get excited about, which is a shame if it's the narrative centre. Excited as I was by the idea of turning the New Gods into the cast of The Wire in Mister Miracle, dips into the remainders bin from Klarion for some feral children isn't exactly doing it for me.

Likewise, the Kamandi/Anthro bits just felt very _long_, and dedicated too much attention to outposts of the DC Universe that no right-thinking person should spend their time on, just because they were in Crisis on Infinite Earths. I know, sense of wonder, issue 3, grand sweep from the end of the universe to the ends of history, fishcakes. Metron is Prometheus. We. Get. It.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:57 / 04.06.08
In Stan Mortenson's defence, though, I absolutely agree with the decision not to have Superman mention that he already knows who killed the NGs. i) Because it will be a great gotcha when he reveals that he could have saved the Alpha Lanterns a trip (and their inevitable destruction) and ii) because were he actually to reveal that the culprit was the source directing the Infinity Man he would, quite reasonably, be laughed out of the room.
 
 
Mario
13:10 / 04.06.08
Don't forget... when this script was being written, Superman DIDN'T know. Because Grant wasn't expecting DC to go and turn the New Gods over to Jim "Cosmic Angst" Starlin.

When you get down to it, rather than leading into Final Crisis, Countdown and DONG actually made it impossible to tell the story as originally conceived. Even if he'd given them the story bits ahead of time, it wouldn't work.

The target:

"The gods of New Genesis are defeated, with Orion the last to die. Darkseid is on Earth, enjoying his final victory by preparing to destroy the heroes with his mastery of the Equation."

The attempt:

"Everything we know about the New Gods is wrong, including the nature of the Source and the Equation. They all die, including Darkseid, who gets his heart torn out."

To quote from an old tape of Bad American Dubbing:

"NOT EVEN CLOSE!"

Maybe Grant was wrong to expect his request for a moratorium to be honored, but at the very least DC could have _tried_ to make things line up. DONG should have been the story of the final battle between light and dark, not Thanos vs. the In-Betweener....
 
 
FinderWolf
15:44 / 04.06.08
>> "MM Torture Garden"

Lol. I dig it.

And there is something unique about Libra's 'voice,' as Haus points out -- indeed, sort of a jumble of characterizations (or least, different shadings of his persona) seem to be out there for him. It'll be interesting to see how he progresses (and what the hinted-at Big Reveal is re: his identity under the mask).
 
 
The Natural Way
00:04 / 05.06.08
Basically, J, sod off - Pat is an insightful, interesting poster. I really enjoy his way of framing things. It often surprises and intrigues me. Don't be so heavy handed and offensive.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:27 / 05.06.08
And just because some questions haven't been answered, doesn't mean that they _won't_ be.

The main thing, surely, is that questions have been raised?

Without questions there are no answers, and if there any aren't further questions following on from the answers, then ... then we might as well all return to the beginning, in traditional dress.

I choose to believe that would raise further questions, though.

Equally, why would I believe that? It's like a morbid loop, soundtracked by Jimmy Shand*.


* The Jimi Hendrix of the scottish country dance accordian.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:33 / 05.06.08
More seriously: I think, guys, that we should maybe wait for another issue or so before we really start laying into Morrrissey about this?
 
 
LDones
03:04 / 05.06.08
I insist that we tailor our opinions toward extremity as instantaneously as possible, and demand that a tale be immediately judged in full upon encountering a first chapter.

Any enjoyment of the comic had by people I don't like shall be all the proof needed by well-educated minds that my reading habits are superior, and that my taste is law.

Additionally, dear sir or madam, I did not like the inclusion of Signalman in a panel of this comic. It is confusing to new readers, and proof that George Madrigal is phoning it in.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:07 / 05.06.08
At least Final Crisis seems to matter, whereas Secret Invasion is rapidly approaching dullsville so fast that if they don't do something quickly they might have to end the series early and retcon it out of existence so they can go back to the 90s 'Who Can You Trust' X-Files vibe.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:01 / 05.06.08
"J"?

"X-Files vibe"?

What is this world of busterism?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:20 / 05.06.08
I rather wish I was still a Comic Books moderator, sometimes. Were I such a one, I would probably suggest deleting anything on this page that does not actually display some evidence of having read the bleeding thing.

Or, to put it another way, shut up, a) LDones and b) almost everyone else.
 
 
Mario
09:33 / 05.06.08
The main thing, surely, is that questions have been raised?

Well, I mean questions like "What power did Metron give Anthro?" and "Who was that guy on the last page?", as opposed to ones like "Why doesn't this fit with Countdown?"

Questions about the _story_, not the writing process.
 
 
Spaniel
10:02 / 05.06.08
As a mod I'm not going to go quite as far as your suggesting, Haus, but I have to agree. Dones, people are allowed to criticise and even dislike FC#1, that's okay, just as it's okay to go about how much you love it. Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, Haus has actually taken the time to write a reasonably lengthy post what he thinks works and what doesn't, and that's more than you can say for many in this thread - loverz and haterz alike.
 
 
_Boboss
10:59 / 05.06.08
surprised the buster thing has caught on hereabouts. from what I can surmise it basically means ‘one who is easily rapeable’ these days, so while perfect for discussions round millarworld’s end, not really what I would have thought would be a popular barb word.

think the views expressed at funnybookbabylon are quite interesting, and chime with what haus said about the elements which work and those that seem to have been put together by a robot rifling through the ‘mad ideas’ bin chez morrison – basically, that gwyneth maltrough has hit the source wall of his own creativity and his style now basically consists of chopping up and splicing together his own greatest hits in ever decreasing circles of novelty. he cites FC as evidence of this, and it’s quite convincing, until you compare it to the good-to-very good books that gloria moneyford put out the same week – ASS reflecting the kind of straightforward, fun, intimately connected and self-referential stuff that he can do (when he has an artist who’s paying attention and can apparently draw absolutely anything he’s asked to); and Batman, which is basically chocolate tits, the violent psychodrama, paranoiac badfeeling biz that he did his come-up with, c. zenith p3 onwards.

reckon most of the blog antipathy, not here on ye barb necessarily, is coming from people’s annoyance at what we may call the didio effect – more fool them for being stupid enough to read countdown and death of the new gods I say. FC itself, shorn of editorial prejudice, comes off as a solid, readable (to both freaks-like-me and newcomers, i’d hazard) opener that balances its wide range of scenes and levels quite well, pulls off a couple of excellent transitions and sequences with the anthro/kamandi stuff and has a lot of tasty fanfood in the incidental background, but is troubled by a couple of overfamiliar clangers ideaswise. so far the new gods are in the details! (thanks. yep, you’re welcome. great to see you. thanks. glad you enjoyed it. thanks. thanks.)

importantly, the sense of potential menace and disaster is high and gives me plenty of reasons to be optimistic about the way the rest of the series may go. green arrow being that angry and vengeful was genuinely worrying: ‘don’t be like that olly – you’re a goodie remember?’ and j’ohn jonez getting it in such an offhand way made libra – stupid costume, indistinct voice and all – seem like he may have some real weight. finally, a villain who really actually honestly doesn’t mess around with the gloating and death traps and stuff, who, when he’s got an a-list cape helpless, just impales and burns his underwritten emo green ass/arse/ASS.
 
 
_Boboss
11:04 / 05.06.08
oh, sorry, it's not funnybookbabylon actually, fact i can't remember where i read it. sorry!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:14 / 05.06.08
pulls off a couple of excellent transitions and sequences with the anthro/kamandi stuff

Really? Gosh. The fire one in particular had me thinking of Dean Lerner. "You see, these links don't write themselves. It all _dovetails together_".
 
 
_Boboss
12:09 / 05.06.08
never seen that - probably an oversight, i like ayoade lots. i guess the first one is a bit watchmen, a bit 'see what i did there??' (if that's what you're getting at.) loved the facepaint/rockpaint bit at the end though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:25 / 05.06.08
(Incidentally, I don't know where you're getting your definition of "buster", but I would rather imagine that the usage is like that in Dr. Dre's "The Watcher", which, being written by Jay-Z and Dre, is probably the equivalent of the Britannica on hip-hop slang.)
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
12:27 / 05.06.08
LDones' post might be my favorite thing ever, not counting the issue of All-Star Superman with the Chronovore. I like that one a lot.
 
 
_Boboss
12:45 / 05.06.08
have either said gents done real time? I don’t know, and have done plenty googling the past few minutes already. fail to see how the ‘easily rapeable’ bit doesn’t fit the context of the useage in ‘the watcher’.

www.playahata.com/pages/dictionary/dictionaryatog.html

'an individual easy to disrespect and or violate, usually do [sic] to cowardice or the desire to avoid conflict'
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:45 / 05.06.08
Then, justly and deservedly, I can say to you "shut up, Keith".

Back ontopic - Thor, I agree that one ropey comic does not mean total creative bankruptcy - the treatments of the big two seem to be going great guns, or in the case of Batman possibly very good guns that are at times great. Either way. However, by the same token ongoing creative viability certainly does not mean every work produced has to be great, and I would disagree that Didio is the only problem here - obviously, the fact that what is going on appears completely to contradict DC's last big event comic is a problem, but it is by no means the only problem.

Incidentally, in the interests of science I found a new reader - is interested in comics generally, has no idea of DC continuity but knows enough to say "Oh, a Green Lantern" - and got said new reader to read FC1. Said new reader found it pretty much incomprehensible.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:49 / 05.06.08
(Incidentally, I believe that in California at least a buster can rather be used to describe someone who is not likely to do what you want - being a buster about something means being intransigent in refusing a request. So, I think we can probably agree on where we were to start with - its status as a non-specific terms of abuse with a number of possible interpretations).
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
15:12 / 05.06.08
Incidentally, in the interests of science I found a new reader - is interested in comics generally, has no idea of DC continuity but knows enough to say "Oh, a Green Lantern" - and got said new reader to read FC1. Said new reader found it pretty much incomprehensible.

I'm not sure this is the best test of FC1, to be honest. I'm not even sure that GM fans are the best test of FC1. A large company-wide event like the past 2 (er, 3, I guess) Crisis is tailor-made to the fan that buys or at least reads most titles dealing with the big superheroes and is pretty up to date on everything happening in the universe. Event books are more of a culmination of storylines that the start of a storyline.

FC1 is definitely dependent on this type of knowledge. I can see certain subsets of fans (people that read basically only GM or other favorite writers) being fairly baffled my most of it just as deeply as a new reader that only knows characters by sight.

Which isn't t to say it's good. I enjoyed it as a prelude, but the second issue is usually where my opinion gets made, to see how well they continue what's been setup.

I'll say this, I'm not really happy to see Darkseid the Human again. I don't think that concepts works at all and further muddies an already ridiculous continuity of the New Gods.
 
 
Mario
16:50 / 05.06.08
Oddly enough, that's the one concept I do like, because it has some narrative tension going on. While other writers have tried the "Gods in three-piece suits" concept (notably, in the Rucka WW run and recent Marvel Hercules stories), you can never shake the feeling that they are slumming... the celestial equivalent of Casual Friday.

"Boss Dark Side" feels different somehow. maybe because he's showing his power implicitly, instead of with a big light show.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:00 / 05.06.08
surprised the buster thing has caught on hereabouts. from what I can surmise it basically means ‘one who is easily rapeable’ these days

Not to interfere with the buster meme, THOR!

Although, if you insist on doing so, could you explain, if poss, how the term 'buster' relates to ... oh, I see. That's actually quite a hard-edged image.

Which only a buster could come up with, I guess.

And so we return, and begin again.


(Busterism, as it applies to this board, is not what you're thinking about - I like to think that if I wanted, for whatever demented reason, to call anyone on Barbelith a rapist, I'd just come out and say so. And that it would be a terrible mistake.)
 
 
vajramukti
18:03 / 05.06.08
the darkseid on earth thing strikes me a fairly straight-up gnosticism. he's the evil demiurge, imprisoned in corrupt matter with all us mortals, and he thinks he's 'won'. it's like a metastisizing cancer; evil can't really take hold on the spiritual plane, because it is a realm of pure light, but down here in the dirt, it can grow and come up from under the ground, which seems like the big theme here. corruption sneaking in from unexpected directions. you don't pay attention to 'boss dark side" and before you know it, the big D is kicking it with the omega symbol on his belt and it's all 'the Rock and the Chain and the Lightning, your New God Now and Forever...Darkseid IS".
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:15 / 05.06.08
I always thought of him as 'Dark-seed', personally.

Who's with me?
 
 
LDones
19:05 / 05.06.08
Apologies for the petulance. I genuinely wasn't referring to you, Haus, so apologies to you, specifically, if offense was taken from anything besides an attempt at levity; you're regularly thoughtful and well articulate. It was the dig at PatrickMM that got my short hairs curled, among other dismissals.

I believe Empress was non-caucasian in the past, yes, and I have always pronounced it 'Dark Side', from the influence of his Superfriends cartoon appearances.



I don't think Final Crisis 1 is any fluffier than much of Morrison's other work, there's some potentially well-pregnant themes in just one issue.

Mankind killing itself with good ideas isn't just about fire in there, it's about superhero fiction and, presumably, civilization - perpetually eroding itself with violence and ugly melodrama (a trend that Dr. Light is really obviously emblematic of).

The stuff with the evil kids in the Dark Side club, infected by Anti-Life, feels like more in the same vein as the Regan bit in ASS#10, but through a horror lens - Morrison feeling that a generation of bright children has been sabotaged, or crippled, perverted.

The deaths of Orion and J'onn J'onnz (symbols of Mars and War) are, I think, pretty clearly evoking a death of resistance against these things, a failure to fight back against degradation in the fictional world of the DCU - and again, presumably, in modern culture - something which Morrison's said he's attempting to explore in FC.

That stylistically 'off' sensibility that folks have mentioned, with major superheroes getting killed in quick and tawdry ways followed by other (ostensibly liberal) superheroes publicly proclaiming bloody vengeance, is absolutely an indication that the world has gone deeply, fundamentally wrong in FC.

There's a lot going on in just one issue, and further issues are just going to draw out more. I can dig being inured to superhero cliches to the point of not taking anything worthwhile from it (or most of Grant Morrison's output), but FC1's a pretty good first chapter of superhero stuff. Anything but generic. Except for the CSI Lanterns stuff, I'll agree, but I think that's meant to evoke that degrading procedural grimness of the modern DC superperson.
 
 
The Falcon
19:11 / 05.06.08
I always thought of him as 'Dark-seed', personally.

Who's with me?


I am! Oh, I am!
 
 
Spaniel
20:45 / 05.06.08
Me too!

Nice summation, Dones. That pretty much captures everything I think's going on in the book. Happy enough with the criticisms I've made on Mindless Ones, however. I do think some of it is ropeily put together, and I do think it mainly works a fanboy audience, although that might change.

Vaj, you're right on the money with your assessment of Boss dark Side, I reckon.
 
 
_Boboss
21:33 / 05.06.08
who published the theory of general relativity? that's right, bertie eensteen! learnt to read yet?

elsewhere, someone said 'meme'! takes you back eh? okay, so 'buster' means lots of things, depending on whether you're in south LA or west baltimore. from now on, strictly central somerset for me, as long as none of you wankbreaks get the hess.

i read final crisis 1 again, between housemates. it's plotty, brooding. 'solid' is the word that keeps coming round, not as good as 'inspired', far from it. the green lantern stuff is getting worse with each read - the 'natural galactic poelease' angle (sorry slipped there) is really quite a small box, best forgotten. an arts council set-up might be more amusing, with the gls as conceptual sculptors, hal jordan's bed. what a grisly thought.

sorry, i'm going.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
22:04 / 05.06.08
Dark seed, defo.

And "A scrub is a guy who thinks he's fine, also known as a buster", according to TLC. Get it up you.

FC? We'll see. A better start than GM's Batman run, and that's ace now.
 
  

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